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johnMKD 06-30-2010 08:01 AM

[QUOTE=indigen;61621]Solution is simple but achieving it would be very hard as it requires either a political revolution or a [B]military takeover[/B] in Macedonia by a NATIONALIST (PATRIOTIC) MOVEMENT and declaring ALL prior acts of CAPITULATION AND TREASON AS NULL AND VOID.[/QUOTE]

Everything you say seem to be OK, but a military takeover imho would hurt the country inside and outside. Inside: Could create issues with Albanians within and outside Macedonia. Outside: Firstly at a diplomatic level and seconldy of course it will "feed" Greece and EU to provoke more about Macedonia's instability.

Rogi 06-30-2010 08:09 AM

Because they are afraid to, not that they don't want to.

They're so afraid that they wont even commission any sort of internal evaluation or decision tree to calculate the so-called risks and consequences of withdrawing from the Interim Accord - because there might be a leak to the media, or worse, to the foreign diplomats that that Macedonian Government is afraid of, and who pull the real strings in Macedonia.

indigen 06-30-2010 08:10 AM

[QUOTE=julie;61618]Absolutely, I agree wholeheartedly, why does RoM do nothing?[/QUOTE]

Julie, you really should STOP AGREEING with everything that on a superficial analysis looks reasonable and take a considered IDEOLOGICAL position. ALL these capitulations - "TEMPORARY REFERENCE" "INTERIM ACCORD" AND "FRAMEWORK AGREEMENT" (aka RAMKOVEN DOGOVOR) should simply be declared as null and void and never legitimised! If you do that, you would not repeatedly have conflicting positions.

As it is, the VASSAL politicians in Mk will do what their masters want and the least we can do is NOT GIVE THEM OUR SUPPORT!

indigen 06-30-2010 08:23 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;61599]Indigen so what you are telling me is that Macedonia is not address in the constitution as the Republic of Macedonia but only as Macedonia? Or non of the above?

Here is the constitution of the Republic of Macedonia.

Daskale, we have been over this topic for a long while now and even Prolet (after SOM set him straight [URL=""][COLOR="Navy"]here[/COLOR][/URL], as he would not listen to me) is PC about it. Macedonia has a state name only - MACEDONIA!

Please check the following specific thread out:
[URL=""][COLOR="Navy"]A Google search for terms "Constitutional name" only relates to Macedonia?[/COLOR][/URL]

If you feel we need to discuss it further, perhaps you can reactivate the specific thread above?

So pochit,

julie 06-30-2010 08:31 AM

John, I hardly think Greece is in any position to "feed" off Macedonia if it were to stand up for once with balls

johnMKD 06-30-2010 08:39 AM

[QUOTE=julie;61640]John, I hardly think Greece is in any position to "feed" off Macedonia if it were to stand up for once with balls[/QUOTE]

Of course, julie! The problem is a) EU is backing up Greece and b) that Macedonia doesn't seem willing to stand up with balls.

johnMKD 06-30-2010 08:45 AM

[QUOTE=Coolski;61549]... and the English should tell FOPOG to change its flag, rather than using symbols from England. They clearly have territorial aspirations.

This is the flag of the East India Trading Company, which was in use well before FOPOG was granted independence by Western Europe.

I had no idea about this East India Trading Company flag existed!! LOL

Bratot 06-30-2010 08:55 AM

It's not in the balls only what counts :)

If some is alleging he know better only by vigorous opponing and simplifying the things as enough just to think of it and will be done I am expecting to see solid background for such reasoning and of course a plan of the measures needed to be undertook in order to neutralise the concequences.

It's very easy to be loud and brave but it's very hard to use properly your brain when dealing such problem, it's a lot to expect from us to react calm and to feel comfortable with this situation but first of all we should ensure the basic elements not to worse our current situation.

Daskalot 06-30-2010 09:37 AM

[QUOTE=indigen;61621]Then you should stick to that and nothing else as you would also be inline with what Macedonian communities worldwide, and specifically in Australia, voted for in 1993/1995 and 2001!

Solution is simple but achieving it would be very hard as it requires either a political revolution or a military takeover in Macedonia by a NATIONALIST (PATRIOTIC) MOVEMENT and declaring ALL prior acts of CAPITULATION AND TREASON AS NULL AND VOID.

Thus we need to start with an ideology and to gather together adherents of that ideology into a national movement that will achieve the set aims and objectives - SOVEREIGN MACEDONIAN STATE for MACEDONIAN NATION! If one does not adhere to our ideology, then they are either political opponents or uninformed/misinformed part of the masses. The former should be neutralised or fought against whilst the latter should be educated/enlightened and won over in as greater number as possible. The quicker one can do this, the stronger the fight for the final aims will be.[/QUOTE]

Well said Indigen, but this movement must come from within Macedonia itself. Most youth in Macedonia are not aware of the situation and they are the ones we need to reach for this movement to get momentum.

Silver 06-30-2010 11:29 AM

Since my post has all but been ignored let me repost it here...

[QUOTE=Silver;61432]OM & Bratot, some comments and questions:

What benefits if any, do see which Macedonia would become endowed with if it ever does join the EU and what foreign investment would you be alluding to and from where? Spain? France? Italy? Indeed, let’s not forget how significant an investor 'Greece' is for Macedonia. We wouldn’t want to do anything to lose that valuable commodity for god sakes, right? What benefits have other countries like Croatia and Slovenia experienced since joining the EU? Have their problems disappeared and has their quality of life improved or will it ever? If so how?

Trade is very important of course but it's time for all of us to realize that Macedonia is very capable and it is solely responsible for creating its own wealth and we should stop waiting for the Germans or somebody else to come and give us a life. Through agriculture and resources alone Macedonia has the ability to market and sell what it wants to any offer. That in its self can create sufficient wealth needed to spur on both business and education that will eventually bring vibrancy and a standard of living we seem to be longing for and nothing else will. Foreign investment should be welcomed, but again, nothing will keep the prosperity in Macedonia except for Macedonian owned business and Macedonian interests. History shows us that foreign interests have only enslaved Macedonians for centuries. For example, the interest paid out from Turkish bonds. But add to the equation an illustrious past and some of the most beautiful scenery and nature anywhere on earth then what else can foreign aid do for Macedonia except create some jobs for a certain sector? There is no guarantee that these jobs will stay forever and if they don't what then? How does Macedonia diversify? If Macedonia is not in the EU will it be banned from trading with the EU or any of its member states? If so, then not only will we be in UN court fighting ‘Greece’ for our human rights we will also be in World Trade court fighting the EU. If we have to, then in good time all this will happen.

Now, when people who granted are frustrated, say that the best option for Macedonia is to tear up the agreement and walk away from talks with artificial 'Greece' we get the 'you're guilty of bravado' comebacks as to sort of bring us back to reality. Well then, tell me this: what exactly do you anticipate would happen if we did just that, walk away by ending the accord tomorrow? Would nobody want to associate with us? Would we be shunned and ignored? How ethical is that?

And let me ask you another question, what exactly do you anticipate artificial 'Greece' would do if Macedonia walks away from negotiating its name? Would they and perhaps their new friends 'Bulgaria' attack Macedonia and begin to exterminate our people? And who would let them? Would Europe stand by as it has in the past and simply watch it happen? Would they ignore it? Would even the whole world ignore something simply over a name? Should we go on as we are trying to join up with these clubs when they don't respect our human rights by not punishing ‘Greece’ and suspending its rights? Why are they incapable of doing anything about ‘Greece’s’ behavior and/or why do they tolerate it? Are the signs of a dysfunctional EU going to elude us forever?

Finally, are you of the opinion that it is 'Greece' and only 'Greece' who is responsible for all the problems Macedonia ever had or did the European Powers have something to do with it as well? Do you really expect any of us to believe that we'll be able to over- turn precedents or is it not true that we will have to submit to more ethnic cleansing in the future? If so, then you are advocating Macedonia to submit to it's murderers and to forget the past. Do not expect many Macedonians willing to join you. You can chalk it up to bravado but I can assure you friends it's a lot more than that.[/QUOTE]

Bratot, you continue to argue in line with the EU, UMD, Mr Buktop et al and at times really not making much sense. The fear mongering, end of the line, guaranteed disaster etc. which will surely befall us for our bravado that I see in your preaching is obvious but I ask you again to go all the way on it and finally explain exactly what do we have to fear?

Are trade embargo's legal and/or ethical? Under what grounds? Is war justified? Why exactly would we have to go to war? Because of who we are and our name? If I'm born with Macedonia in my blood and want to be identified and recognized as a Macedonian is someone right to think I deserve to die? Can anyone still actually get away with that in 2010? Does Europe think it can? 100% their baby 'Greece' still thinks it can that's for sure (if you do not yet understand what degree of evil Greece is capable of then you shouldn't even bother to discuss this anymore).

Are we not being blackmailed here? 'Go along with what we say or else' What else? Are we not being strung along a path to our own destruction simply because it's easier for them this way rather than to have to revert back to murdering Macedonians? If the threats of our economic demise are what we're worried about than surely we have absolutely nothing to worry about. Macedonia has seen it all. A little more stagnation and rationing is nothing compared to even a hundred years ago. Meanwhile, France is an economic basket case, so is Italy, so is Spain, so is 3/4 of the entire EU an economic basket case. So that argument doesn't fly anymore. Macedonia has all it needs to thrive and survive. It's simply up to Macedonians and our level of determination.

Now back to the 'what else?'. If it's war, the threat of war and that nobody would say boo to 'Greece' for annexing the rest of Macedonia than why are we willing to trust anyone who accepts this as a fate we deserve? Why do they accept it? And why do we want to have their approvals and be willing to follow along with whatever they say hoping that things will just work out for us in the end. It's obvious what 'Greece' wants and what their supporters in the EU want. The death and extinction of the Macedonian Ethnic Nation. That has been part of the European ideology for centuries. Do you care to deny it? How do we fit into the EU under those circumstances? And how in the world will we be able to over-turn what's already been done to deny us our name and our identity?

In my opinion it is absolutely clear and without a doubt that nobody even countries who have already recognized our name and identity will help us until we stop being naive and stand up for ourselves already. Otherwise we will soon be staring into the abyss.

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