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Rogi 02-02-2010 11:32 PM

I won't discuss more Prolet, my lawyers wouldn't like that.

Soldier of Macedon 02-03-2010 12:18 AM

[QUOTE=Rogi;35074]You mean my personal details and Risto's and Jankovska's personal details being posted on the Greek forums?

Or do you mean the annoying phone calls I used to get, threatening to kill my family and my dog (I don't have a dog, btw)?[/QUOTE]
Yes to the first, I am sure you are already aware of that. As for the second point, I can't comment.

It is a shame that such psycho's exist in modern society, but there you have it, Greek racism has no limit of stupidity. Hence the reason why I respect everyone's individual decision on this, as I equally admire those that do use their real names for the courage in this respect (although I would advise against it based on the previously cited examples).

aleksandrov 02-03-2010 12:31 AM

People who make threats over the internet and telephone are full of hot air, while the ones who could really do something to you if they wanted to are very unlikely to do it because of what you posted on an internet forum, and they are not so easy to evade by the use of pseudonyms on the internet. Over the years, speaking up against injustice has made me the subject not only of countless telephone and internet/email threats by all sorts of faceless cowards, but also surveillance (or should I call it stalking) and direct and indirect intimidation and interrogation by state agents and 'kodoshi' who must find something to justify their pay, not only in Australia, but also in the Republic of Macedonia and Greece. Ironically enough, my worst experiences have been in the Republic of Macedonia itself, followed by Greece. Several other Macedonian activists I know have had similar experiences. We all find that the best form of protection is public exposure and never succumbing to fear.

Rogi 02-03-2010 12:35 AM

Yeah, though I put the second one down to a few idiots with nothing better to do in their lives than get drunk and make threatening drunk calls. It doesn't really happen anymore though, I think they've grown up a little.

A simple call to let the police know takes care of it either way.

amitreski 02-03-2010 09:46 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;34755]UMD is a tool of Western foriegn policy.

Western foriegn policy for Macedonia. Western institutions such as NATO and the E.U completely back Greece and the terms that Greece has put to the Macedonians.

Western structures such as the Interim Accord, the Ohrid Framework agreement ...etc, which are anti-Macedonian, are fully backed and supported by UMD.

Just a sample of what UMD are thinking. Here is the President commenting about "the reality" of the Ohrid Framework Agreement. Speaking as though the Macedonians hands are tied and have no choice. It is indicative of UMD unable to take a principled stand or position against current anti-Macedonian institutions and structures in the West. It also gives a clue about the attitude in the Macedonian parliament.

As for UMD and WMC ?

UMD members have taken a stand against Todor Petrov for no sound or logical reason, other than they see his organization as competition or occupying "space" they want to take over.[/QUOTE]

UMD Has never taken a stand against WMC. Stop lying.

Prolet 02-03-2010 09:54 AM

Hi AMitreski, Good to have you on board

Bratot, How can you be so sure?? If VMRO supported Todor Petrov he would have been part of their coalition remember?

AMitreski, What can you tell us about the premier of the movie "Ime Sie Ime" that happened overnight??

amitreski 02-03-2010 09:55 AM

[quote=pelister;33181]the facts are that umd are pushing for macedonia's integration into western [i]institutions[/i] - institutions that negate us.

The fact is that umd has backed since day one western [i]structures[/i], such as the interim accord, such and the framework that completely negate us.

Umd is about to launch a world tour to convince us macedonians that we need to integrate.

Recently [u]the vice-president of umd[/u] (who by now probably hates me), said that he personally agreed with nimetz, that to integrate, we must negotiate.[/quote]

[b]this is a full blown lie [/b]

amitreski 02-03-2010 09:57 AM

The event was[B] fantastic.[/B] Many Macedonians, but more importantly, many non Macedonias were there. See the video for yourself.

[url=]YouTube - Премиера на филмот „Име си е име во Вашингтон[/url]

The images and write up will follow...

amitreski 02-03-2010 09:58 AM

[url=]YouTube - Премиера на филмот „Име си е име во Вашингтон[/url]

Prolet 02-03-2010 10:00 AM

AMitreski, Ive seen the video, why was it hosted in a Jewish Hall??

It looked good from here, well done with all the work and effort you put in.

What does the Baba say in the movie?

Soldier of Macedon 02-03-2010 10:02 AM

How are you buddy? You're the guy that wrote about Macedonians expressing "[B][I][COLOR="Red"]too much nationalism and the ancient rhetoric from Macedonia have damaged our reputation although we were the losers last April[/COLOR][/I][/B]", along with praising how Greece "[B][I][COLOR="red"]plays to perfection[/COLOR][/I][/B]" the "[B][I][COLOR="red"]sophisticated game[/COLOR][/I][/B]" of politics. Correct?


Are you ashamed of Macedonia's history? Are the Macedonians not smart enough to play this sophisticated game? Sho sne nie da se kriame od drugite? Nationalism is healthy, it's not like there were groups of crazed racists roaming the streets of Macedonia, it is simply a case of Macedonians feeling proud at a time when they needed to. You want to put them down for that?

The European negotiator that seems to get praised for doing nothing each year, says that "[B][I][COLOR="red"]Macedonia, if it wants to enter certain international organizations then it is bound to negotiate over the name. He is right[/COLOR][/I][/B]" - Is what you said. How much of the Diaspora do you think would "unite" behind that line of thinking?

Perhaps you should stop twisting things.

Prolet 02-03-2010 10:03 AM

AMitreski, So if Nimetz said that we are not required to negotiate our name what is he doing there in the first place??

Dont be so upset with Pelister, he has some concerns thats all, and while you're at it could you post the 2009 list of achievements?? Me and Vangelovski want to see them.

Soldier of Macedon 02-03-2010 10:09 AM

Are you and/or Meto supposed to be exempt from criticism? Take accountability for your actions and admit to your mistakes, at the end of the day you are your own worst enemy.

Soldier of Macedon 02-03-2010 10:13 AM

Amitreski, are you contesting the validity of Pelister's email that you had sent to him, as presented by Pelister? I would like his opinion on this matter.

Prolet 02-03-2010 10:17 AM

SOM, I think Metodija is in Australia as we speak, or is he in New Zealand im not too sure but i know that he is in the region for the month of February.

amitreski 02-03-2010 10:32 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;35234]Are you and/or Meto supposed to be exempt from criticism? Take accountability for your actions and admit to your mistakes, at the end of the day you are your own worst enemy.[/QUOTE]

Constructive criticism is always good and I welcome it. Lying and twisting things is another thing.

Soldier of Macedon 02-03-2010 10:48 AM

Mitreski, am I lying when I suggest that Meto proposed a 'democratic' prefix as acceptable for international use at the UN, EU, etc?

Do you think it is acceptable?

amitreski 02-03-2010 11:04 AM

WASHINGTON, D.C. - June 15, 2009 - On June 13, 2009, on the occasion of the 1st United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) Global Conference, the UMD Board of Directors passed a resolution offering unwavering and consistent support for the protection of the constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia. The text of the resolution is as follows:



DATED: JUNE 13, 2009
The Board of Directors of the United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD), on the occasion of UMD's First Global Conference, affirming UMD's unwavering and consistent support for retention of the constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia and UMD's rejection of attempts to impose any name contrary to the Republic of Macedonia's constitutional name, hereby declares:

WHEREAS, the Republic of Macedonia peacefully and democratically declared its independence from Yugoslavia on September 8, 1991, and

WHEREAS, the Macedonian people, upon peacefully securing their independence, rightfully chose their historic and ancestral name for themselves and their state, and

WHEREAS, the Republic of Macedonia's constitutional name is central to the identity and self-determination of the Macedonian people, their Macedonian language, culture and heritage, and to the creation of a stable, prosperous, and tolerant democratic society; THEREFORE BE IT,

RESOLVED, that the United Macedonian Diaspora, reiterates its unwavering support for retention of the constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia, rejects attempts to impose any name contrary to the historically accepted and democratically affirmed name of the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian people, and urges the full membership of Macedonia in NATO and a date certain for negotiations for membership in the European Union.

Buktop 02-03-2010 11:06 AM

[QUOTE=aleksandrov;35077]Enough with the petty diversions. I didn't ask you for your identity (at least not on this thread). I simply reminded you of an obvious social phenomenon which you pretend to be ignorant of: that your true identity is important to other reasonable people when weighing up your contentious actions, including statements and arguments. I did that because you chose to act surprised about the fact that Vangelovski considers it important.

You know very well that I have made numerous posts on Maknews to the effect that, in general, I find it morally objectionable for people to make contentious statements, especially statements that vilify or defame real people on public forums, while concealing their own true identity. I made that same argument to Vangelovski personally some time ago, and I believe he accepted it, given that he has subsequently swapped his former fictitious internet ID for his real name. Many people I generally respect disagree with me on this issue, but that takes nothing away from my convictions about it.

Now reply to the substance of my post or stop the futile red-herring.

You accused Vangelovski of baselessly claiming that the UMD leadership has supported the Framework Agreement. I referred you to a link that Indigen posted at least twice on this thread, which shows that UMD has published a statement of support for the Framework Agreement on its own website, which is still there. Why have you repeatedly evaded responding to that reference to clear evidence?

Do you still content that there is no evidence that the UMD has publicly supported the Framework Agreement?[/QUOTE]
The point is, I have the right not to reveal my identity, it does not lessen or weaken my arguments, and that is what you need to understand, you have chosen to reveal your identity and thats all well and good, but don't get upset that there are those who won't. And even if I was to give you my identity, how would you know it was my real identity? What difference would it make? I could be Batman for all you know.

Red Herring's? I have done no such thing

The quote provided by Indigen does not indicate willing and unwavering support of the Framework Agreement.

I have already commented on the "supposed" support of the Interim and Framework agreement by UMD, please feel free to read the multiple threads dedicated to it.

Soldier of Macedon 02-03-2010 11:17 AM

[QUOTE=amitreski;35246]You have to take in context the timing when that statement was made. That was one of Meto's first interviews. He made a mistake.[/QUOTE]
I hope by timing you aren't making reference to a certain offer allegedly on the table at the time that the Macedonian goverment were 'prepared' to go for, because I don't see how that is relevant where it concerns the interests of the Macedonian Diaspora, that your organisation is supposed to represent.

I'm happy that you can admit to it as a mistake, but Meto seems to be having difficulty with it. Perhaps because, by mistake, I mean he should not have said that, period. I did not mean that he mumble jumbled words on account of this being one of his earlier interviews.
[QUOTE][B][U]Changing our constitutional name is not acceptable. [/U][/B]UMD has been very clear on this issue, from all the posted information on our website, PR, resolution's adopted during our conference, etc.[/QUOTE]
That remains to be seen, I want to hear from Pelister, as I am not prepared to believe your accusation against him, that he has provided a manipulated version of your email.
[QUOTE]Кој работи тој и греши.[/QUOTE]
Тоа го сфаќам, а тои шо ќе греши треба да си признаи, иначе сам се лажи.
[QUOTE]Given the widespread discussion in this mistake, I am sure Meto would not make that mistake again:wink:[/QUOTE]
I would certainly hope not. Do you think that Meto's trip to Australia will be of any worth? What do you think it will achieve?

Buktop 02-03-2010 11:26 AM

[QUOTE=aleksandrov;35080]If you are going to judge others, first judge yourself.

What have YOU done to resist and oppose the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement?

What have YOU done to encourage the UMD to resist and oppose the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement?

If 90% of the citizens of Macedonia decide to sell their dignity and their identity for promises of material benefit or to be led by fear, does that justify you or anyone else jumping on the bandwagon?[/QUOTE]It is not about judging Aleksandrov, it is about the rights of the citizens to question the constitutionality of their adherence to the Interim and Framework agreements.

Have you volunteered your time to construct a case for the constitutional court in Macedonia? Have you, being such an important activist, offered to help support a case reaching the constitutional courts?

I do what I can, when I can, I am not the activist that you are, but yet I don't see you pushing for exploring the proper avenue's of questioning or overthrowing the Interim and Framework Agreements at the constitutional courts, (where this whole matter should have been decided 20 years ago) It is not difficult to discern that the government of Macedonia follows these two agreements and considers them valid and binding and within their constitutional authority, so wouldn't the obvious course of action be to question it through the high courts?

This is not a question of what have I done, what have you done, it is a question of why hasn't this been done?

Prolet 02-03-2010 11:29 AM

A.Mitreski, You need to communicate with the people alot more rather then popping up once in a blue moon, stating something and then heading off. Sure your post does make sense and i've been saying it all along Koj Raboti Toj i Greshi, i can say the same thing for myself and we all make mistakes thats fair enough however you really need to work with the people who got us to where we are today. We have alot of smart individuals and people from the older generations who've given their lives to get to where we are today, we cannot forget our past and those who worked so hard with very little resources.

I wont criticize you however i will say this, we easily give our trust to anybody who is prepared to work for our fatherland that is always welcomed however that trust is lost even easier when things dont get cleared up and are let to drag on and on. Problems need to be solved, issues need to be resolved its how it works. We've been burned so many times we dont know who to trust anymore so you can see why some people are a bit tough on the UMD.

Just remember one thing, we all respect the fact that you are giving alot of your time and putting in the effort for our Diaspora. I dont think you will find one person who will dispute that, however you cant use that as an excuse for any failures. Just because you spend alot of time and effort does not mean that you have the right to use it against the people who question your work and even criticize yourself and the UMD. The Pressure is there in anything you do, its being able to cope with it and get results that counts and believe me once you have success you will win everyone's support. We can understand that its not easy for you guys, but remember that you need to work with everybody if you want a stronger and tougher organization because trust is something very hard to keep these days in our Diaspora and if you dont understand that you will in the near future.

Buktop 02-03-2010 11:40 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;35236]Amitreski, are you contesting the validity of Pelister's email that you had sent to him, as presented by Pelister? I would like his opinion on this matter.[/QUOTE]
It is pretty obvious, this isn't the first time Pelister has been caught red handed.

Prolet 02-03-2010 11:48 AM

A.Mitreski, Im glad we understand eachother but believe me "Sto Narodot Misli" is not as important as "Na Kogo Narodot Mu Veruva" You cant move an inch if you dont have your back yard cleared up and you cant get very far if you dont have the support of the people. I suggest you organize yourselves wisely and gain the trust of the people because once you do that you will be much stronger and you will have everybodies support.

A word of Advise, think like a Macedonian be a man for the people dont take the Americanized way and just looking at the hours you spend. Sometimes you can achieve more in 20 minutes then you can in 80 hours. We are a small community and we all know eachother somehow or another, unity is the only way to succeed and without trust there is no unity thats for sure. I got no doubt that we can do this however not with the way things are organized right now, there is always room for improvement thats for sure. 02-03-2010 12:14 PM

Thanks Aleks for posting the video! Here are the pictures: [url][/url]

makedonin 02-03-2010 12:38 PM

У видеото, на Грко му било мачно да го гледа филмот. Маму им јаречка!

Risto the Great 02-03-2010 03:50 PM

Prolet, some very wise advice. Well done.

Risto the Great 02-03-2010 03:52 PM

[QUOTE=Prolet;35052]There was a Greek Guy who watched it that was not very impressed because in the film it said that Aleksandar the Great was Macedonian.

Anything to add UMD?[/QUOTE]

No they won't. We already have confirmation the UMD chooses to ignore historical arguments. It is policy for them apparently.

Risto the Great 02-03-2010 05:39 PM

[QUOTE=amitreski;35240][B]If the government of the Republic of Macedonia stopped the negotiations, UMD would be the first to applaud this decision.[/B][/QUOTE]
Hello amitreski, welcome to this forum.
I feel a little frustrated with the UMD and wonder out loud whether there has ever been situations where the UMD has done quite the opposite in relation to decisions of the Macedonian Government. Has the UMD ever castigated (any of) the Government's decisions or actions at any point? Some people may in fact view the UMD as a voice or tool of the Macedonian Government. Does the Macedonian Diaspora need to blindly support the Government in power?

I have touched upon this in the past and have wondered what the UMD will do when it comes to a crossroad in ideology. Will it be prepared to lose relationships with the Government in power to assert itself? It has never done this in the past as far as I am aware.

Thank you for admitting the error in Meto's youthful statements. We still really do not have closure on this matter until he personally deals with it. The protracted nature of this line of query has ensured the UMD is not seen to be transparent and merely raises more questions about the true intent of this organisation.

How do you feel about the MPO alliance with UMD? What are your thoughts in relation to this organisation?

Vangelovski 02-03-2010 05:40 PM

[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana]If in fact UMD does not support the negotiations, why hasn't it publically called for an immediate end? Why hasn't it publically called for the Macedonian Government to declare the Interim Accord 'null and void'. Why has it consistently reprimanded Greece as the 'intransigent party' to the negotiations? Why did it reprimand Greece for not accepting “Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)” at the NATO summit?[/FONT][/COLOR]

Vangelovski 02-03-2010 05:45 PM


Further, how do you explain Meto's other "youthfull" statements regarding name changes - particularly his written ones where he had time to consider what he was writing before posting his comments, such as the one below on Macedonian Media Monitor.

Here, Meto again argues in favour of a "political modifier" if "all else fails" for the sake of the EU and NATO. Well, Meto, most Macedonians would rather NOT join the EU and NATO if "all else fails".

[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][I]"We have to be realistic, [B]Macedonia if it wants to join NATO and EU it has to join under a modified name[/B] for those organizations ONLY.[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000][I]How happy are you that we are called "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in NATO, UN, and EU? I'm not....[B]wouldn't you prefer us to be called something like Democratic Republic of Macedonia instead[/B], IF ALL ELSE FAILS, of course? [B]I sure would[/B]. However, until all else fails, our position is double formula".[/I][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]Meto Koloski[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]13 March 2008[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][URL=""][FONT=Calibri][URL][/URL][/FONT][/FONT]
[/QUOTE][/I][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][/URL][/FONT]

Warrior 02-03-2010 05:55 PM


Again, Pelister has taken many statements out of context, twisted them and spun them around.

What I was trying to say to him, and I try to eliminate ambiguity.

Macedonia was vetoed in Bucharest. This was a great oportunity for Macedonia to walk out of the negotiations with pride and "krenati glavi". Greece violated the agreement by blocking the entry of Macedonia in an international decision. That's what I would have liked to happen. The government did not do that, and all questions regarding why they didn't can be directed to them.

If we continued to "negotiate" then Macedonia should have used its oportunity to display the Greek xenophobic, discriminatory policy on Macedonia. Macedonia should have displayed how Greece would do anything to harm Macedonia's EuroAtlantic Integration. And in general, Macedonia should have pointed out the intransigent party, since Greece commonly refers to Macedonia as such to foreign diplomats.

What happened was Macedonia started investing in monuments that were used to harm our public image to international diplomats. In my meetings with International diplomats that was relayed to me. That Macedonia was nationalistic, that Macedonia wanted to attack Greece, etc. To walk out of meetings and be told that Macedonia is a terrible neighbor just for planning to build a monument opposite to what Greece has been doing to Macedonia is appalling. This is all bullshit, but shows how polished the Greek diplomacy is. We just did not seize the moment. I have no problem about these monuments, just questioning the timing and hoped we were more strategic.

In terms of negotiations, I just said what Nimetz said in a public forum. Macedonia is not required to negotiate, but if Macedonia wants to join EU, NATO etc, then those are the conditions. So he is right, if the government of Macedonia does not want to join EU and NATO we can walk out of these negotiations. Unfortunately, (it is not UMD's fault) the entry in these organizations seems to be conditioned on the negotiations process.

[B]If the government of the Republic of Macedonia stopped the negotiations, UMD would be the first to applaud this decision.[/B]

Now, where is UMD's fault in all this?

Everybody is frustrated with the position in which Macedonia is put. We should not negotiate for our name and identity. That is something that has been part of the Macedonians for several millenniums. I am quite proud of the Macedonian history, especially the antic era, with Philip and Alexander at the helm of the Macedonian Kingdom.[/QUOTE]

Your above statements basically says, that the UMD relays information from the maco government and also the international diplomats. What good is that of a so called non-government group? Where are the true honest views of UMD? It seems everytime you guys are questioned about some press release and its content, you dont take ownership of that release and basically suggest that it was influenced by other bodies or the political situation in RoM. You flow in the same direction as the government and also western bodies that are destabilizing RoM.

Vangelovski 02-03-2010 06:01 PM

[quote=Warrior;35276]Your above statements basically says, that the UMD relays information from the maco government and also the international diplomats. What good is that of a so called non-government group? Where are the true honest views of UMD? It seems everytime you guys are questioned about some press release and its content, you dont take ownership of that release and basically suggest that it was influenced by other bodies or the political situation in RoM. You flow in the same direction as the government and also western bodies that are destabilizing RoM.[/quote]

I think we have a BINGO!

Vangelovski 02-03-2010 06:41 PM

[quote=amitreski;35220]UMD Has never taken a stand against WMC. Stop lying.[/quote]

Mitreski, maybe UMD hasn't taken a stand against the WMC, but the "young" Meto certainly did in his post on Macedonian Media Monitor, dated 3 April 2003:

[FONT=Calibri][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=#000000]What activites does the World Macedonian Congress and World Macedonian Youth Congress do in regards to Macedonia besides send long e-mails, which most of us get through the direct sources (newspapers) themselves?...[/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri][COLOR=#000000]...[FONT=Calibri]As far as I know WMC and WMYC are non-active in the US and Canada and nor are the Macedonians living in North America fond of these two groups. They have caused more problems amongst our community in NJ then helped solve the problems as they claimed they would do by uniting the community.[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT]



Soldier of Macedon 02-03-2010 07:12 PM

How has he been caught red handed? Are you also trying to imply that Pelister did not produce the same email to us, that was sent to him by Mitreski?

Warrior 02-03-2010 07:20 PM

Well done to UMD for organising this event. It seems like a success, hopefully they endevour to organise more of these events in the future, as they can only be an assistance to the maco exposure.

Vangelovski 02-03-2010 07:21 PM

Let me throw in something here that does not require the corroboration of private correspondence.

On 17 March 2008, Manevski** wrote the following - a largely [COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana]disingenuous [/FONT][/COLOR]and scaremongering attempt to support Meto's "political modifier":

[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]Let me ask you this? What will you choose? [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=#000000]People in Macedonia dying and starving or “Democratic Republic of Macedonia”?[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]



**EDIT - I m[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana]istakenly [/FONT][/COLOR]stated that this was posted by Aleksandar Mitreski - it was actually a statement by Denis Manevski, UMD Treasurer. I have corrected it above.

Vangelovski 02-03-2010 07:27 PM

[quote=Risto the Great;35267]No they won't. We already have confirmation the UMD chooses to ignore historical arguments. It is policy for them apparently.[/quote]

That's weird, they've entered the historical debate before...

Bill77 02-03-2010 07:36 PM

How far fetched is this statement "People in Macedonia dying and starving" oh please. How are we suposed to take these people serious with bull shit like this.

Buktop 02-03-2010 07:36 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;35278]Mitreski, maybe UMD hasn't taken a stand against the WMC, but the "young" Meto certainly did in his post on Macedonian Media Monitor, dated 3 April 2003:


[/FONT][/QUOTE]He had every right to state his disapproval of the actions of WMC in regards to the NJ community, just as you are stating your disapproval of UMD activities, this by no means makes it UMD policy.

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