The facts are that UMD are pushing for Macedonia's INTEGRATION into Western [I]institutions[/I] - institutions that negate us.

The fact is that UMD has backed since day one Western [I]structures[/I], such as the Interim Accord, such and The Framework that completely negate us.

UMD is about to launch a world tour to convince us Macedonians that we need to Integrate.

Recently [U]the Vice-President of UMD[/U] (who by now probably hates me), said that He personally agreed with Nimetz, that TO INTEGRATE, WE MUST NEGOTIATE.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;33175]That is a strong point, and cannot be argued against. For how much longer are we going to serve the interests of others? For almost 2 decades of talks and negotiations, practically nothing has changed in this field.[/QUOTE]

Serving the interests of others is exactly what we have been doing for 2 decades.

What bothers me is that UMD will be pushing for our Integration into these Western institutions and continue to support these Western structures - even though these Western institutions and structures are putting terms to us that are irrational.

Rogi, UMD will not be screening it in Australia.

We heard it will be screened; and we suggest you contact the producers...

[url]www.anameisaname.com[/url]

[QUOTE]doesnt seem to me like umd is trying to change macedonia's name.[/QUOTE]
This is something positive and doesn't need your negative complexities or misinterpretations. Keep that discussion where it belongs (on the other threads).

i dont know wether to laugh or cry, this idea that the west is macedonias saviour is so naive in fact its ridiculous. the west have at every turn supported greece against us since 1903 to 2010. but unfortunatly some of our nth american macedonins are too blinded by the coca cola culture they live in to see what the good ole us of a has been doing these past 50 plu years.

I don't care anymore. I'm not about to get into arguments about what some insignificant person said in a 2 minute interview with someone I don't know who has analysed it to shreds and who thinks I have personal issues with someone I have never even talked to other than a few internet forum discussions. Call it back-peddling, call it bitching out, call it whatever but I couldn't be fucked because it is not what this thread was about and not something that will affect me deeply.

[QUOTE=Dzog;33224]I don't care anymore. I'm not about to get into arguments about what some insignificant person said in a 2 minute interview with someone I don't know who has analysed it to shreds and who thinks I have personal issues with someone I have never even talked to other than a few internet forum discussions. Call it back-peddling, call it bitching out, call it whatever but I couldn't be fucked because it is not what this thread was about and not something that will affect me deeply.[/QUOTE]

You say ou don't care, but your not a Macedonian.

They have been calling for name changes since day one and it matters to some of us.

SoM and others here don't necessarily agree with me, and I respect that immensely but the evidence of UMD calling for a MODIFIED NAME is incontrovertible. I am glad others see it, even though UMD deny anything of the kind was ever said.

What should be more concerning is UMD's support for Western institutions and structures (including the Interim Accord, the current Framework, the terms that the Greeks, the E.U and NATO put to us) - it is UMD's backing of these institutions and structures that needs to come out.

I'll tell you what is "stupid". [U]The President of UMD doing a world tour to convince us of our need to Integrate into institutions that fully back the terms put to us by Greece [/U]!

Why not send a message to the Macedonian government that they are the idiots for negotiating our historical identity, to get into the fking E.U and NATO, which these lackeys worship.

I am Macedonian. I'm just not an uneducated Bitolcanec like yourself.

[QUOTE=Dzog;33253]I am Macedonian. I'm just not an uneducated Bitolcanec like yourself.[/QUOTE]

Didn't you say you were a Greek of Vlach descent on Maknews ? Or were you just pretending to be.

So the Dzog on Maknews was full of shite after all.

You saying your a Macedonian doesn't explain much, and I'm not a 'Bitolchanec' imbecile.

dzog you have made many great contributions on maknews and i think your call for unity is admirable but unity must be based on mutual respect and a sharing of some values and goals. by the way i am not sure pelister is a bitolchanec. i think you and he may be closer in that respect than you think.
umd have come on board and blown their own horn ad nauseum, their contribution to the macedonian cause is insignificant and possibly divisive and destructive. do you expect us to listen to their hype and continuous flip flopping from one position to another and not hold themm to account. the bishop is another bull in china shop and his power lust has cost the australian macedonian communities close to 8 million dollars in legal costs. many of these communities were active and committed patriots before that crazy cleric even realsied what it was to be a macedonian. imagine what our community could have done with 8 million dollars.

Chris,

I never said I was Greek.

I am full of shit but I don't feel that I need to be honest on an internet forum that I go on when I'm bored. If you want to use them to display your super-duper intelligence and awesome patriotism then the stage is yours but don't you think that at your age you should be doing more meaningful things with your life rather than fuck around with idiots like myself?

You're not a Bitolcanec? Who cares. Whichever way you slice it, shit is still shit.


Osiris,

You sound like a good dude. Don't get caught up with all this bullshit.


P.S. I see the irony in hurling personal abuse in a thread I started about quelling tensions within the Macedonian community. Well, what can you do?

[QUOTE="Dzog"]I am full of shit but [B]I don't feel that I need to be honest on an internet forum[/B] that I go on when I'm bored.[/QUOTE]
So why become so emotional when your point of view is contested, when, in actual fact and as per your own confession, you are not honest here in any case? I agree with you, you are starting to sound like you are full of shit, even though I did not perceive you this way (until you just admitted it yourself). Who am I to argue.

Soldier of Macedon,

In your 4,476 posts you have developed the ability to register emotions through this forum? WOOOOOOOW!!!

dzog if you are in australia i urge you to come to melb for the victor friedman dinner. i have read your posts and admire your hhonesty and intelligence, do not give up on our cause there will always be fools and time wasters thats the nature of humanity. we need as many articulate intelligent and success macedonians to stay involved with our struggle at any level they are comfortable with. i have an idea who pelister maybe and let me say his passion is understandable when you know his families contribution to macedonian freedom. no body is perfect mate, please do not throw the baby out with the bath water. you are exactly the type of person our community needs. i must admit i too have not been invloved directly with our many community organisations because of the ego driven and ignorance that is rife in many of our organisations, but macedonia is our spiritual and historical homeland we cannot allow the fools to set our agenda. thats why you must stay on and post a and if possible network with those of us whose aim is to support our people not to gloat in our fame.
som bro cut dzog some slack its his passion that makes him disillussioned and i for one understand him perfectly.

[QUOTE=Dzog;33271]I am full of shit but I don't feel that I need to be honest on an internet forum that I go on when I'm bored. [/QUOTE]
I find that, over time, you will end up being far more honest over an internet forum than you ever will be in a few short meetings.

[QUOTE="Dzog"]Soldier of Macedon,

In your 4,476 posts you have developed the ability to register emotions through this forum? WOOOOOOOW!!![/QUOTE]
Yeah, it is quite easy when the relevant individual is self-admittedly 'full of shit', one can usually begin to register it when the same individual starts 'bitching out', unless of course you consider your conduct as a bitch a normal everday thing.

What a shame you became like this, and here I am thinking you can actually be logical.

[QUOTE="Osiris"]som bro cut dzog some slack its his passion that makes him disillussioned and i for one understand him perfectly.[/QUOTE]
Osiris, I understand where you are coming from, I understand where he is coming from too, but I don't like the turn of attitude that he has shown here, for a topic he claims to have no interest in. I don't question his passion or patriotism, but his last few posts have been rather childish, perhaps this is the way some individuals behave when their paternal delude at Maknews is not here to consolidate their views, or, in some cases, to wipe their arses.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;33156][COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana]Charlatan,[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana]The Gligorovist policies you are advocating would be more suited to Maknews where the readership is generally more gullible. You should note that Gligorov already used the “temporary” argument 17 years ago (where he defined “temporary” as 3 months – i.e., Macedonia would only be using FYROM in the UN for 3 months by which point our subservient vassal politicians told us they would have Macedonia recognised). However, even then, long-time activists strongly argued against this, as it was likely to become much more “permanent”.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana]Two years later, the Gligorovist politicians signed the Interim Accord – another “temporary” arrangement. Since then, the vast majority of politicians refuse to even consider revising the unjust and “temporary” capitulations that they carried out as part of that Accord.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana]These “temporary” arrangements that you keep advocating for have already been put in place and have yielded NO results. In fact, they’ve only lead to further capitulations and will lead to even more.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana]Are you able to provide even one example of a SUCCESSFUL liberation movement that SUCCESSFULLY pursued the type of “temporary” Glogorovist-style policies you are advocating?[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Excuse me Vangelovski, could you answer these questions that I asked you about a year and a half ago?

Can you explain to us all here on the forum, how do you intend to maintain the Human Rights of the Macedonians with an annual GDP of about $17 Billion, an unemployment rate of 35-40%,no alternative inexpensive trade routes, an unfinished pipeline (corridor 8), an unfinished cargo airport, heavy rail lines that are not maintained, no alternative effective energy options (other than low grade coal which polluted Macedonia terribly during the 94-95 embargo), no actual allied countries (other than Turkey, who wouldn't be able to help us if we were sanctioned by the IMF, World Bank or UN) etc etc...?


These are the solutions to the "temporary" issues that plague Macedonia, and atleast we have initiated efforts to deal with these issues. Once they are complete we can effectively assure our sovereignty.

Don't forget that it takes a while to finish ICJ cases, and to attain 2/3rds UN majority.

You either are very shortsighted or completely blind.

[QUOTE=osiris;33210]i dont know wether to laugh or cry, this idea that the west is macedonias saviour is so naive in fact its ridiculous. the west have at every turn supported greece against us since 1903 to 2010. but unfortunatly some of our nth american macedonins are too blinded by the coca cola culture they live in to see what the good ole us of a has been doing these past 50 plu years.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry Osiris, who should we turn to? Australia? No wait, maybe we should turn to Russia, seeing how they helped the Serbs with Kosovo.

Buktop, your avatar at Maknews is of Russia's president, is it not? Is it Russia or the individual himself that you have an actual affinity for?

Are you aware of what America has done to Macedonia in the last century? I think you are, because it has been cited recently. None of these 'friends' are good, it is just a matter of determining who is the lesser evil, let's compare the 2 big fish, the country that gives us false promises and never delivers (Russia) or the country that provides active support to our enemies (America) during the Greek civil war of 1946-49 and the Macedonian conflict of 2001? None of these groups have helped Macedonia, for Macedonia - Everything the American's have done has been as a result of their own strategy.

Wow did this thread turn to shit... The second Dzog stated his objective opinion on Meto's statement half the forum jumped at him. If that doesn't tell you something I don't know what will.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;33295]Buktop, your avatar at Maknews is of Russia's president, is it not? Is it Russia or the individual himself that you have an actual affinity for?

Are you aware of what America has done to Macedonia in the last century? I think you are, because it has been cited recently. None of these 'friends' are good, it is just a matter of determining who is the lesser evil, let's compare the 2 big fish, the country that gives us false promises and never delivers (Russia) or the country that provides active support to our enemies (America) during the Greek civil war of 1946-49 and the Macedonian conflict of 2001? None of these groups have helped Macedonia, for Macedonia - Everything the American's have done has been as a result of their own strategy.[/QUOTE]
:laugh: Yes my avatar was of Putin the ex-KGB, Judo master and macho manly man that saved a camera crew from a tiger, lol I chose that avatar because Putin was winking, I think he is a funny guy, and it is also funny how much Americans are afraid of him.

I am aware of what America has done, I am aware of what Australia has done, I am aware of what Europe has done and I am aware of what Russia has done. You are right in the sense that it is a comparison of the lesser of the evils.

Every country that helps any other country does it as a result of their own strategy for personal gain. The question you need to ask yourself is which of the evils benefits Macedonia the most (politically/economically) while harming it the least. As of right now, I am of the impression that we are percieved as a valuable asset to USA and hence the closer cooperation between the two governments as well as economic ties. I don't think the USA would build it's biggest embassy in Macedonia simply to see Macedonia disintigrate.

It is all a matter of perceived benefit, which really, depends on what you are looking at.

It would be nice to play both sides against the other but the Macedonian politicians are incapable of doing this.

Objective opinion? Please.

We all know his (and your) history with Pelister, Vangelovski and co. Don't try and paint a bad image of this forum because the administrators allow both sides to be heard. Threads like this 'turn to shit' because people who are clearly subjective are claiming to make statements in the name of 'objectivity'.

I am starting to understand why this whole issue 'turned to shit', Pelister is no angel, but your defence of Meto's pathetic statements and the way you have danced around them are a reason for topics as such 'turning to shit'. This is why the real matter at hand is buried under the eventual "he said, she said" garbage. You guys are now so caught up in 'support-mode' for the UMD that anything written about them is viewed as an attack, which is a tragedy, as Macedonians are now made to feel bad because they dared to criticise an organisation that claims to represent them. The cherry of the cake is the fact that the UMD require people like yourself, Dzog and co. to go from forum to forum to 'defend' their interests, rather than the UMD addressing these matters themselves, [U]appropriately[/U]. Oh wait a sec, it was you that said that I am "not fucking entitled to a response", wasn't it?

You won't get a more objective Macedonian forum than ours, if you want the Maknews type of 'objectivity', you know where to go.

You have Putin as an avatar for the comedic element? How interesting, I thought it had something to do with your yugo-commie (no pun intended, it is what it is) signature over there.

With regard to Australia and even Russia, it is more a case of what they haven't done (yet). As far as I am aware, no Aussie or Russian flew over Lerinsko in 1949 to spray it with napalm oil on behalf of the Greeks, nor were they there giving a free passage of exit for the ethnic Albanian terrorists that destabilised Macedonia in 2001. All of that good stuff was courtesy of the USA.

The current relationship between Macedonia and America comes from their support against our enemies. Do you think the USA are building their great embassy in Macedonia to assist in preserving the Macedonian people? The USA is interested in maintaining a vassal state in the Balkans, regardless of what their name is. We are one of the weakest groups in the Balkans at the moment because of divisive traitors, what better candidate is there for the USA to 'control'?

How have/will their activities in Macedonia, benefit(ed) the Macedonian people?

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;33300]Objective opinion? Please.

We all know his (and your) history with Pelister, Vangelovski and co. Don't try and paint a bad image of this forum because the administrators allow both sides to be heard. Threads like this 'turn to shit' because people who are clearly subjective are claiming to make statements in the name of 'objectivity'.

I am starting to understand why this whole issue 'turned to shit', Pelister is no angel, but your defence of Meto's pathetic statements and the way you have danced around them are a reason for topics as such 'turning to shit'. This is why the real matter at hand is buried under the eventual "he said, she said" garbage. You guys are now so caught up in 'support-mode' for the UMD that anything written about them is viewed as an attack, which is a tragedy, as Macedonians are now made to feel bad because they dared to criticise an organisation that claims to represent them. The cherry of the cake is the fact that the UMD require people like yourself, Dzog and co. to go from forum to forum to 'defend' their interests, rather than the UMD addressing these matters themselves, [U]appropriately[/U]. Oh wait a sec, it was you that said that I am "not fucking entitled to a response", wasn't it?

You won't get a more objective Macedonian forum than ours, if you want the Maknews type of 'objectivity', you know where to go.[/QUOTE]
Wow SoM. So it is all my fault for offering a differing opinion and interpretation of statements than yours?

First of all, I didn't involve UMD in this thread at all, and if you look at my first post in this thread you will understand my reason for commenting. Secondly you know what I said regarding Meto's comments and I don't appreciate you misrepresenting my statements. Thirdly, I am not even a fucking member of UMD. I have nothing personally invested in this witch hunt. I only addressed statements that were clearly unsubstantiated (as you yourself called Pelister to substantiate his ridiculous claims, not to mention the countless times that Rogi, TM, and UMDiaspora.org have addressed them), and I then was drawn further and further into the shit-hole as I was attacked and accused relentlessly because I support the charity work that UMD has done for Macedonians.

My involvement in the UMD threads would have ended had it not been for Vangelovski and Phoenix constantly accusing me of foul play and communist style stifling of opposition.

I'll admit, I do not care for Vangelovski, and I will admit that our arguments have drawn away from thread focus, but in all of our arguments significant issues have been discussed and two sides have been told.

UMD does not "require" people like Dzog or myself to defend them (Dzog hasn't said a word in any UMD thread, and in fact he agrees with you that Pelister needs to substantiate his claims rather than pull them out of thin air) I don't see the connection you draw between him and UMD.

SoM, you have proven to be one of the most reasonable people to hold a conversation with on this forum, our past history and differences aside, I respect that. I am not a UMD messenger boy, and any and all arguments I have made concerning UMD are in an attempt to offer a different perspective and interpretation of the disputed statements. I will not force you to believe my interpretations but I believe they not only balance the debate, but provide an opportunity to weed out the week and irrelevant arguments that cannot be substantiated or proved.

[quote="Soldier of Macedon"]You have Putin as an avatar for the comedic element? How interesting, I thought it had something to do with your yugo-commie (no pun intended, it is what it is) signature over there.[/quote] Yes my signature is a quote from Tito, nevertheless it holds significant relevance concerning the current Macedonian predicament specifically, as you have noted, a traitorous element. Read it again if you must
[quote]We have spilled an ocean of blood for brotherhood and unity of our peoples, and we shall not allow anyone to touch or destroy it from within.[/quote]

[quote="Soldier of Macedon"]With regard to Australia and even Russia, it is more a case of what they haven't done (yet). As far as I am aware, no Aussie or Russian flew over Lerinsko in 1949 to spray it with napalm oil on behalf of the Greeks, nor were they there giving a free passage of exit for the ethnic Albanian terrorists that destabilised Macedonia in 2001. All of that good stuff was courtesy of the USA.[/quote]Do you know what the Tito-Stalin split was? If you do, then you will realize that this is one of the main factors for the events unfolding the way they did during the Greek civil war.

And yes, the actions of the US during the 2001 conflict were atrocious, but this can only be blamed on the preceding policy pursued by Bill Clinton. It was strictly a remnant of his foreign policy concerning Serbia that spilled over into Macedonia. I personally despise Bill Clinton, but you cannot blame an entire country for one President and his complete and utter failure at foreign policy.

[quote="Soldier of Macedon"]The current relationship between Macedonia and America comes from their support against our enemies. Do you think the USA are building their great embassy in Macedonia to assist in preserving the Macedonian people? The USA is interested in maintaining a vassal state in the Balkans, regardless of what their name is. We are one of the weakest groups in the Balkans at the moment because of divisive traitors, what better candidate is there for the USA to 'control'?

How have/will their activities in Macedonia, benefit(ed) the Macedonian people?[/QUOTE]
Whether or not we let them control Macedonia is up to us, the point is the perceived appearance of importance. And this closeness may or may not be an attempt at a "vassal" state, there is no proof to confirm or deny this. The point being an increased interest by the US reduces certain external and internal risks that would otherwise be quite serious at this particular point in time.

I will not answer the second part as I am sure personal opinion plays a bigger roll than facts in this aspect.

[QUOTE=Buktop;33298]I don't think the USA would build it's biggest embassy in Macedonia simply to see Macedonia disintigrate.[/QUOTE]
I will pretend I am talking to a little child for the benefit of our readers that struggle with complex realities (typically Americans). If Macedonia were to disintegrate, the Americans have already befriended the ethnic Albanians so much that they have already made statues of a former USA president. They have favoured ethnic Albanians over Macedonians every time.

Why would anyone think the Americans could care less about WHO they are dictating to? As long as they have complete capitulation from the victim nation, the Americans will be happy.

Buktop, i am starting to wander where your Patriotism leans towards more. You seem to get ofended everytime the US is criticised. There are many on this thread from Australia for an example, where they have openly Trashed there own government. The truth is the truth, has nothing to do with The US v AUS or Canada v US. Its all to do with Macedonia and the Macedonians.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;33311][U]I will pretend I am talking to a little child for the benefit of our readers that struggle with complex realities (typically Americans).[/U][/quote] Risto, I am offended by this statement, what are you trying to say? All Americans are stupid? Didn't all you Aussies have your panties in a twist when Maknews made the same comments? Hypocrisy at its best...

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;33311]If Macedonia were to disintegrate, the Americans have already befriended the ethnic Albanians so much that they have already made statues of a former USA president. They have favoured ethnic Albanians over Macedonians every time.[/quote]Again, you didn't even bother to read anything that I wrote.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;33311]Why would anyone think the Americans could care less about WHO they are dictating to? As long as they have complete capitulation from the victim nation, the Americans will be happy.[/QUOTE]Risto, please tell me you know something about the foreign policy of nations... You think Australia gets itself involved in other nations business for the sake of the poor and innocent? PLEASE read what I write before making statements like these, it might give people the impression that you are pursuing an agenda...

Risto, I am very disappointed with this post, maybe I should go rally up all the Americans on the forums and start threads saying that Risto is trying to create divisions in the diaspora?

[QUOTE="Buktop"]Do you know what the Tito-Stalin split was? If you do, then you will realize that this is one of the main factors for the events unfolding the way they did during the Greek civil war.[/QUOTE]
Of course I know about the Tito-Stalin split, as I am sure you would know that neither Tito, Stalin or their armies bombed Macedonian villages with Napalm oil after WWII, in support of the Greeks. By the way, Bill Clinton was not alive during this time.
[QUOTE]I will not answer the second part as I am sure personal opinion plays a bigger roll than facts in this aspect.[/QUOTE]
Quite the contrary, I am not asking you to tell me your opinion, just the facts. What have the USA done in Macedonia, that has benefited Macedonia?

I will give you an example, then you can give me a parallel.

During 2001 the Americans entered Macedonia to save ethnic Albanian terrorists from the Macedonian forces. That was an act in Macedonia, to the benefit of the ethnic Albanians.

[QUOTE=Bill77;33312]Buktop, i am starting to wander where your Patriotism leans towards more. You seem to get ofended everytime the US is criticised. There are many on this thread from Australia for an example, where they have openly Trashed there own government. The truth is the truth, has nothing to do with The US v AUS or Canada v US. Its all to do with Macedonia and the Macedonians.[/QUOTE]

I have openly trashed the US hundreds of times, I have done it in the post right above in response to SoM, I encourage you to read my entire post, not just parts of it.

[QUOTE=Prolet;33118]You're dead right about that, Gjorgje Ivanov thinks the same way.

Иванов: За идентитетот нема место за преговори
Горазд Чомовски



Македoнија е најмногу заинтересирана да се премости спорот со името во што е можно најскоро време но никако нема да дозволи во нејзино име друг да решава и притоа да го оспорува правото на самоопределување и самоидентификација.

Претседателот Иванов со сугестија до Грција што поскоро сфатите дека за идентитетските прашања нема место за преговарање толку побрзо ќе може да постигнеме компромис во спорот.

„Идентитетските одредници се прашања за кои едноставно не сакаме или уште попрецизно, немаме право да разговараме. Се надевам дека и нашиот сосед е свесен дека за идентитетските прашања никој на овој свет не разговара. Идентитетот е чувство со кое се раѓа човекот и таквото индивидуално чувство на граѓаните едноставно е невозможно да се одземе на маса со акт, со парче хартија. Доколку нашиот сосед реално, не декларативно, покаже подготвеност за решение, до компромис може да се дојде. Ние сме подготвени“, рече Ѓорѓе Иванов, претседател на Република Македонија.

Резимирајќи ја изминатата година доајенот на дипломатскиот кор, хрватскиот амбасадор ги поздрави успеси што Македонија ги направила во 2009 година, особено добро спроведените претседателски и локалните избори а честиташе и за добиената визна либерализација и препораката за почеток на преговори.

„Се надеваме дека вашата земја ќе продолжи решително со своите реформски напори и дека успешно ќе ги реши сите отворени прашања кои создаваат потешкотии на тој пат. Вашето општество треба и понатаму да го поддржува европскиот пат, со широк консензус и со поддршка на сите политички сили“, вели Иван Кујунџиќ, амбасадор на Хрватска во Македонија.

Она што можеше да му се прочита меѓу редови во обраќањето на Иванов е дека претседателот не е најсреќен од позицијата во која сега е Македонија.

[url]http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=118797[/url][/QUOTE]


I hope I am not the only one reading this correctly but the guy is talking about our identity and he is not going to negotiate which i thought is obvious that we were not going to anyway. He is still willing to look for a solution on the name.

[QUOTE=Buktop;33313]Risto, I am offended by this statement, what are you trying to say? All Americans are stupid? Didn't all you Aussies have your panties in a twist when Maknews made the same comments? Hypocrisy at its best...

Again, you didn't even bother to read anything that I wrote.

Risto, please tell me you know something about the foreign policy of nations... You think Australia gets itself involved in other nations business for the sake of the poor and innocent? PLEASE read what I write before making statements like these, it might give people the impression that you are pursuing an agenda...

Risto, I am very disappointed with this post, maybe I should go rally up all the Americans on the forums and start threads saying that Risto is trying to create divisions in the diaspora?[/QUOTE]

I resent the USA for restricting Macedonia in its defense of sovereignty. Before you rally up the Americans you need to prove your point, ask them if America does what it does with USA's interests placed first and foremost. If they cannot accept this, then don't bring them here. I did say "typically Americans", it would exclude people like True Macedonian. How many Americans have passports, I am sure 5% was the statistic. The world revolves around the USA for most Americans and they have the least interest in world affairs of almost all people. As a general rule, give me Europeans for conversation any time.

Australia acts in its own interests in East Timor and other places where it can exert influence. It is a disgusting reality. It does not mean Macedonians should be proud of it. To be honest, if I was to consider being a prostitute, I would like a little more money for the degradation.

america is not and has never been Macedonia's friend. The EU is not and has never been Macedonia's friend. The sooner our gov, Macedonian Diaspora org and the Macedonians themselves understand this the sooner we will be looking to the future and NOT hoping that someone will save us. Everyone who think America or the EU are our friends and give a fuck about should really open their eyes, wake up and smell the coffee

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;33314]Of course I know about the Tito-Stalin split, as I am sure you would know that neither Tito, Stalin or their armies bombed Macedonian villages with Napalm oil after WWII, in support of the Greeks. By the way, Bill Clinton was not alive during this time.[/quote] If you know about the Tito-Stalin split, then you know that the American and British pilots would not have ever been ordered to fly over Greek territory had Stalin not withdrawn support for the partizans in Greece. By the way, primary bombing coordination over Greece was conducted by Britain, considering they had the most to gain or lose pending the outcome of the war. Between 1943-45 Britain had invested well over a billion pounds in Greece.

Re-read my post concerning Bill Clinton, this was in response to your comments on 2001.

[quote]Quite the contrary, I am not asking you to tell me your opinion, just the facts. What have the USA done in Macedonia, that has benefited Macedonia?

I will give you an example, then you can give me a parallel.

During 2001 the Americans entered Macedonia to save ethnic Albanian terrorists from the Macedonian forces. That was an act in Macedonia, to the benefit of the ethnic Albanians.[/QUOTE]I was not offering an opinion, I stated that whether it be my opinion or yours facts wont matter (as we will see with responding posts). How about the amount of FDI from the US. How about the new US-Macedonian military contracts.

I want to ask you something now. What has Russia done in Macedonia to benefit Macedonians, What has Australia done in Macedonia to benefit Macedonians?

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;33319]I resent the USA for restricting Macedonia in its defense of sovereignty. Before you rally up the Americans you need to prove your point, ask them if America does what it does with USA's interests placed first and foremost. If they cannot accept this, then don't bring them here. I did say "typically Americans", it would exclude people like True Macedonian. How many Americans have passports, I am sure 5% was the statistic. The world revolves around the USA for most Americans and they have the least interest in world affairs of almost all people. As a general rule, give me Europeans for conversation any time.

Australia acts in its own interests in East Timor and other places where it can exert influence. It is a disgusting reality. It does not mean Macedonians should be proud of it. To be honest, if I was to consider being a prostitute, I would like a little more money for the degradation.[/QUOTE] I resent Australia for not recognizing Macedonia's constitutional name... and therefor restricting its sovereignty.
No one has ever denied that USA acts on behalf of its own interests, I don't know what you are arguing about? No one ever said they were proud of America acting on their own interests, I said that Macedonia could use that to its benefit... And excuse me, but are you talking of general Americans, or the American Macedonians? I would advise you be careful how you phrase these statements.


You keep alluding to the comparison of being a prostitute, did you ever wonder why women became prostitutes? I assure you it was not by choice, and it was not because they were well off, and were able to support themselves.

[QUOTE=Buktop;33325]I resent Australia for not recognizing Macedonia's constitutional name... and therefor restricting its sovereignty.
No one has ever denied that USA acts on behalf of its own interests, I don't know what you are arguing about? No one ever said they were proud of America acting on their own interests, I said that Macedonia could use that to its benefit... And excuse me, but are you talking of general Americans, or the American Macedonians? I would advise you be careful how you phrase these statements.


You keep alluding to the comparison of being a prostitute, did you ever wonder why women became prostitutes? I assure you it was not by choice, and it was not because they were well off, and were able to support themselves.[/QUOTE]

A be sto ako nekoj te priznae kad ke te natera da si dades g'zot pod kirija na Siptarite?

[QUOTE=Buktop;33325]I resent Australia for not recognizing Macedonia's constitutional name... and therefor restricting its sovereignty.
No one has ever denied that USA acts on behalf of its own interests, I don't know what you are arguing about? No one ever said they were proud of America acting on their own interests, I said that Macedonia could use that to its benefit... And excuse me, but are you talking of general Americans, or the American Macedonians? I would advise you be careful how you phrase these statements.


You keep alluding to the comparison of being a prostitute, did you ever wonder why women became prostitutes? I assure you it was not by choice, and it was not because they were well off, and were able to support themselves.[/QUOTE]
Buktop, I resent Australia for not recognising Macedonia's name. We agree. I cannot even begin to compare that with the USA encouraging ethnic Albanian terrorists to destabilise Macedonia.

I am not sure what will happen if I phrase statements in any particular way in relation to general comments about Americans. I like many South Americans if that helps you.

Many (not all) prostitutes merely make lifestyle choices. They are often frowned upon in society for taking the easy way out. I am sure I should interpret your final comment that Macedonia should indeed prostitute itself because it is not well off and unable to support itself. This is why you give up so easily. ... This is why I say forums can often reveal more about a person than a few meetings ever could. If we met, you would be another chest beating proud Macedonian. But as the words keep flowing here, you are on the bed copping it royally by the stars and stripes so your Macedonian relatives can learn Albanian back home. I bet you don't look like Julia Roberts as well.

[QUOTE="Buktop"]Wow SoM. So it is all my fault for offering a differing opinion and interpretation of statements than yours?[/QUOTE]
Absolutely not, and nowhere have I made such a statement.
[QUOTE]Secondly you know what I said regarding Meto's comments and I don't appreciate you misrepresenting my statements.[/QUOTE]
How am I misrepresenting? I was appreciative of your reply to my questions regarding Meto's ZMR interview, I just think you are going easy on criticising what he actually said (then and on other occasions) because you are sympathetic to him and/or the UMD. I don't like to equate you (or even Dzog) as UMD 'messenger boys', but it is sometimes hard to argue against that when, on the one hand you guys are forever on Pelister's back about his anti-UMD articles, while on the other, regardless of who is making the criticism on the UMD it is generally the same group of guys that come in to bat for them. As you indicated earlier, perception is everything. I think, deep down, were it not to be on a public forum like this, and were it not for this so-called Australo-American 'division' that was honed at Maknews, you would probably be more vocal.
[QUOTE]SoM, you have proven to be one of the most reasonable people to hold a conversation with on this forum, our past history and differences aside, I respect that. I am not a UMD messenger boy, and any and all arguments I have made concerning UMD are in an attempt to offer a different perspective and interpretation of the disputed statements. I will not force you to believe my interpretations but I believe they not only balance the debate, but provide an opportunity to weed out the week and irrelevant arguments that cannot be substantiated or proved.[/QUOTE]
Buktop, I have absolutely no issue at all with you (or anybody else) voicing opinions, but when generalisations enter the picture it bothers me because a false conclusion can be drawn that gives an unnecessary negative image of the MTO.

Buktop, Russia recognized Stari Kraj alot earlier then USA did for starters.

[QUOTE=Buktop;33309]
My involvement in the UMD threads would have ended had it not been for Vangelovski and Phoenix constantly accusing me of foul play and communist style stifling of opposition.
[/QUOTE]

Mate, get over yourself...perhaps you have issues with Vangelovski wiping the floor with your constitutional ramblings but don't drag me into your bullshit...get it right, I've never accused you of "foul play" or "communist style stifling of opposition"...I've called you an American arse-licker.

Buktop for somebody who has defended Meto's statements with the steady hand of a surgeon of semantics you deliberately butcher other statements when it serves a different agenda...