Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue
 

[url]http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3852/45/[/url]

Is Greece planning to veto Macedonia's bid to join the E.U ?

Isn't this a way for the E.U to deflect its racist stance against the Macedonians ?

I hope Greece vetoes and does it defiantly.
The more of a fuss they raise about it, the more interest the issue will generate... the more people will be interested in the situation. The absurdity of their arguments will then come to the fore.

I'm more concerned about what effect a Greek veto will have on the Macedonian government.

I would feel better if I thought the government was very clear in its principals, regarding its soveriegnty, its rights and nationality...and so on and so forth.

I think Crvenko has the government rattled a bit. I think he is portraying himself as the voice of the E.U, and is undermining the government at every turn.

What can Macedonia do?

My suggestion to Gruevski would be to make some very clear statements about Greece's intentions, which need to be said. Greece's intentions have been implied, or suggested, but never made openly public in the E.U.

The Macedonians could say "Greece wants the native Macedonians wiped out" ...

If the Macedonians do nothing, Greece couldn't be more provoked than it is now, so I say spill the beans ... the Macedonians should be defending their rights, history, identity ... and be damned what the fkn Greeks do.

Macedonia needs to make its own threatening statements now.

Greece is 'threatening' to Veto Macedonia's EU bid. We all know very well that Greece WILL use that veto, without doubt.

Macedonia needs to make a counter-threat, along the lines of 'If Greece does Veto and ONCE AGAIN breaches the terms of the Interim Agreement, proving it is unable to abide by the Interim Accord, then said breached accord is useless and serves no purpose, and thus Macedonia will have no choice but to end negotiations based on the accord and proceed with a UN Declaration and subsequent UN vote, based on its Right to self-determination'.

That way, it's clear:
If they do this, we do that.
If they don't, then we wont. (well... yet, anyway).

Macedonia just needs to keep making that statement, day-in, day-out, the way the Greeks were repeating 'veto, veto, veto' in the days and weeks leading up to the NATO summit. It gives everyone (else in the world) enough time to re-adjust positions and be prepared for the Greek veto and Macedonia's consequential withdrawal from the Interim Agreement... if you don't lay the groundwork for the withdrawal of the Interim Accord, then you can't just do it in a big surprise and catch the big players off guard. It means with this counter-threat, which we repeat, repeat and repeat, and take serious, it will mean all the pressure goes on Greece to step down from their position of Veto and allow us into the EU with the interim name, or else create a permanent stagnation against EU and NATO interests.

the greek veto is a type of cold war, and i agree with rogi it must be challenged by the macedonian government.

[QUOTE=Rogi;3770]Macedonia needs to make its own threatening statements now.

Greece is 'threatening' to Veto Macedonia's EU bid. We all know very well that Greece WILL use that veto, without doubt.

Macedonia needs to make a counter-threat, along the lines of 'If Greece does Veto and ONCE AGAIN breaches the terms of the Interim Agreement, proving it is unable to abide by the Interim Accord, then said breached accord is useless and serves no purpose, and thus Macedonia will have no choice but to end negotiations based on the accord and proceed with a UN Declaration and subsequent UN vote, based on its Right to self-determination'.

That way, it's clear:
If they do this, we do that.
If they don't, then we wont. (well... yet, anyway).

Macedonia just needs to keep making that statement, day-in, day-out, the way the Greeks were repeating 'veto, veto, veto' in the days and weeks leading up to the NATO summit. It gives everyone (else in the world) enough time to re-adjust positions and be prepared for the Greek veto and Macedonia's consequential withdrawal from the Interim Agreement... if you don't lay the groundwork for the withdrawal of the Interim Accord, then you can't just do it in a big surprise and catch the big players off guard. It means with this counter-threat, which we repeat, repeat and repeat, and take serious, it will mean all the pressure goes on Greece to step down from their position of Veto and allow us into the EU with the interim name, or else create a permanent stagnation against EU and NATO interests.[/QUOTE]

Well said Rogi.

NATO and EU tell you to change your name, not Greece. They have adopted Greece's positions. Except some old communist countries your nationalistic goverment is considered a relic from 19th century.

[QUOTE=Pelister;3765]I'm more concerned about what effect a Greek veto will have on the Macedonian government.

I would feel better if I thought the government was very clear in its principals, regarding its soveriegnty, its rights and nationality...and so on and so forth.

I think Crvenko has the government rattled a bit. I think he is portraying himself as the voice of the E.U, and is undermining the government at every turn.

What can Macedonia do?

My suggestion to Gruevski would be to make some very clear statements about Greece's intentions, which need to be said. Greece's intentions have been implied, or suggested, but never made openly public in the E.U.

The Macedonians could say [COLOR="Lime"]"Greece wants the native Macedonians wiped out" ...[/COLOR]
If the Macedonians do nothing, Greece couldn't be more provoked than it is now, so I say spill the beans ... the Macedonians should be defending their rights, history, identity ... and be damned what the fkn Greeks do.[/QUOTE]
These guys vote for Karamanlis in a vast majority. Thosewho were forced to leave were expelled for being communists, not because of their race. The others stayed because they were loyal to democracy (and the right party).

[QUOTE]These guys vote for Karamanlis in a vast majority. Those who were forced to leave were expelled for being communists, not because of their race. The others stayed because they were loyal to democracy (and the right party).[/QUOTE]

What a load of bovine excrement. You still think these people were fighting for communism? My grandfather came from a what at the time would have been considered a wealthy family, do you think it was in his interests to fight for communism? The political angle is an excuse for guys like you who don't want to face the reality of the situation. After the Asia Minor fiasco and the Metaxas years, these people were fighting for their right to exist.

Forget about your ND bullshit and trying to relate it to the
Maccedonian people. Modern people vote with their wallets, so your mixing peas and potatos.

@Mods. I am offended by this individuals constant and purposeful misrepresentation of events as it pertains to the reasons Macedonians fought and died.

[QUOTE=El Bre;3785]What a load of bovine excrement. You still think these people were fighting for communism? [COLOR="YellowGreen"]My grandfather came from a what at the time would have been considered a wealthy family, do you think it was in his interests to fight for communism? [/COLOR]The political angle is an excuse for guys like you who don't want to face the reality of the situation. After the Asia Minor fiasco and the Metaxas years, these people were fighting for their right to exist.

Forget about your ND bullshit and trying to relate it to the
Maccedonian people. Modern people vote with their wallets, so your mixing peas and potatos.

@Mods. I am offended by this individuals constant and purposeful misrepresentation of events as it pertains to the reasons Macedonians fought and died.[/QUOTE]

And i am offended because you are an agitator who is lying about many things. I insist. ALL THE ETHNIC MACEDONIANS who left were communists. Why didnt the others leave? Why did they leave side by side with the Greek communists?Why do the remained vote for Karamanlis and the right party for decades now?
as for th highlighted section details please. i dont buy it.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;3762]I hope Greece vetoes and does it defiantly.
The more of a fuss they raise about it, the more interest the issue will generate... the more people will be interested in the situation. The absurdity of their arguments will then come to the fore.[/QUOTE]
You were saying the same thing before NATO summit and then you were crying like babies. Remember in the Maknews forum?

Ummm, I never cried about it.
I expected it because I know who we are dealing with.
What I expect now is that the World will tire of the Greek vindictiveness and will no longer subsidise them at Macedonia's expense.

Hey, if I put some money in a Greek bank, will the Germans guarantee my money?

[QUOTE=Traveller;3699]Yesterday, Schaeffer (=NATO) told you "it is hard for you , but if you want to join NATO and EU you have to change the name". It is so simple. Do you want to join NATO or EU? If you say yes , you know what to do. If you say no under this "blackmail" poverty and civil unrest will dismantle your country. This is Greece's AND NATO plus EU view.[/QUOTE]

How exactly will civil unrest and poverty dismantle our country big fellow? Nothing of the sort has happened in the last 17 years and we were not part of the EU or NATO. So why should it happen now?

If you even mention 2001, I will formally proclaim my want to punch you square in the face.

The 'view' you are talking about is solely greece's view, but I very much agree with Risto in saying that there will come a time in the near future when many, many people will tire of greece's pathetic little view.

Please sir, think with your head and think logically instead of posting bullshit you [I]want [/I]to happen.

[QUOTE]you are an agitator[/QUOTE]

You're on a Macedonian website professing to tell people about their own history and I'm the agitator?

[QUOTE]who is lying about many things[/QUOTE]

What have I lied about exactly?

[QUOTE]ALL THE ETHNIC MACEDONIANS who left were communists.[/QUOTE]

Not true. Many people left because they saw which way the wind was blowing and their future wasn't going to be in Greece. People emmigrate for many reasons not only because they are communist bogeymen.

[QUOTE]Why didnt the others leave?[/QUOTE]

Just as there are many reasons people emmigrate there are many reasons why people stay behind, fear of the unknown is one.

Where do you get the idea that everyone is politically minded anyway? After the civil war alot of people just wanted to be left alone to live in peace, they'd had enough upheaval in their lives. Is that so hard to understand?

[QUOTE]Why did they leave side by side with the Greek communists?[/QUOTE]

Who were they going to leave with? Mussolini?

[QUOTE]Why do the remained vote for Karamanlis and the right party for decades now? [/QUOTE]

The same reason I vote for a 'right party'. I vote with my wallet.

[QUOTE]as for th highlighted section details please. i dont buy it.[/QUOTE]

Well how condescending is that?
What don't you 'buy' exactly?
What kind of details do you want? bank statements?

My greatgrandfather spent the first 30 years of the 20th century travelling back and forth between Macedonia and the United States. He did very well by his family. This is not an uncommon story.

I'm sorry if my words don't jive with your notion of reality, but this is [I]my[/I] Macedonian truth.

[QUOTE]I'm sorry if my words don't jive with your notion of reality, but this is my Macedonian truth.[/QUOTE]

Correction:

I'm sorry if my words don't jive with your notion of reality, but this is [B]THE[/B] Macedonian truth.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;3796]Ummm, I never cried about it.
I expected it because I know who we are dealing with.
What I expect now is that the World will tire of the Greek vindictiveness and will no longer subsidise them at Macedonia's expense.

Hey, if I put some money in a Greek bank, will the Germans guarantee my money?[/QUOTE]

Greek goverment guarantees 100,000 euros. If you are richer you should go to Ireland's banks. They guarantee all your money.

[QUOTE=Venom;3809]How exactly will civil unrest and poverty dismantle our country big fellow? Nothing of the sort has happened in the last 17 years and we were not part of the EU or NATO. So why should it happen now?

If you even mention 2001, I will formally proclaim my want to punch you square in the face.

The 'view' you are talking about is solely greece's view, but I very much agree with Risto in saying that there will come a time in the near future when many, many people will tire of greece's pathetic little view.

Please sir, think with your head and think logically instead of posting bullshit you [I]want [/I]to happen.[/QUOTE]
It wont happen. When the name problem is solved Greece will be your stepfather in EU.

[QUOTE=Rogi;3770]Macedonia needs to make its own threatening statements now.

Greece is 'threatening' to Veto Macedonia's EU bid. We all know very well that Greece WILL use that veto, without doubt.

Macedonia needs to make a counter-threat, along the lines of 'If Greece does Veto and ONCE AGAIN breaches the terms of the Interim Agreement, proving it is unable to abide by the Interim Accord, then said breached accord is useless and serves no purpose, and thus Macedonia will have no choice but to end negotiations based on the accord and proceed with a UN Declaration and subsequent UN vote, based on its Right to self-determination'.

That way, it's clear:
If they do this, we do that.
If they don't, then we wont. (well... yet, anyway).

Macedonia just needs to keep making that statement, day-in, day-out, the way the Greeks were repeating 'veto, veto, veto' in the days and weeks leading up to the NATO summit. It gives everyone (else in the world) enough time to re-adjust positions and be prepared for the Greek veto and Macedonia's consequential withdrawal from the Interim Agreement... if you don't lay the groundwork for the withdrawal of the Interim Accord, then you can't just do it in a big surprise and catch the big players off guard. It means with this counter-threat, which we repeat, repeat and repeat, and take serious, it will mean all the pressure goes on Greece to step down from their position of Veto and allow us into the EU with the interim name, or else create a permanent stagnation against EU and NATO interests.[/QUOTE]


That is exactly what the Macedonian government needs to say and needs to do.

It shouldn't let Greece get away with breaching the interim accord a second time.

[QUOTE=Traveller;3822]It wont happen. When the name problem is solved Greece will be your stepfather in EU.[/QUOTE]

Oh, please.

That's like the Torturer saying to the victim, submit now, and I will look after you !?

That's pure poison coming from your mouth.

[QUOTE=Traveller;3821]Greek goverment guarantees 100,000 euros. If you are richer you should go to Ireland's banks. They guarantee all your money.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the EU is not happy with Ireland.
But Ireland is doing very well economically.
Unlike Greece which has been a huge financial drain on the EU. The excuses are getting thinner and thinner.

See, the thing is traveller, there is no real name 'issue' per se. It is really an issue of what greeks did to Macedonians with help from their European overlords a little while ago.

So when THAT issue is solved, do you think greece will be able to afford to be anyone's stepfather?

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;3828]Yeah, the EU is not happy with Ireland.
But Ireland is doing very well economically.
[COLOR="Blue"]Unlike Greece which has been a huge financial drain on the EU.[/COLOR] The excuses are getting thinner and thinner.[/QUOTE]

Haha, indeed. But now things have changed and we pay for the poorer ex communist newcomers. We are financing even countries that dont belong to EU like ROM through the pact for Balkan reorganization. The expansion of the university of Tetovo (among others) is financed by Greece.

[QUOTE=Traveller;3844]Haha, indeed. But now things have changed and we pay for the poorer ex communist newcomers. [B][COLOR="Red"]We[/COLOR] are financing even countries that dont belong to EU like ROM through the pact for Balkan reorganization[/B]. The expansion of the university of Tetovo (among others) is financed by Greece.[/QUOTE]

You?

haha

You are talking about EU funds, not Greek. Those money, doesnt belong to you, they were given to be managed by Greece in the Balkan pact.

ALL THE GREEK EVENING TV NEWS TRANSMITTED MINUTES AGO THAT NIMITZ'S PROPOSAL IS " REPUBLIC OF NORTH MACEDONIA". The language "MACEDONIAN" and the ethnicity "Citizens of the republic of North Macedonia". It seems that there is a level of acceptance from Greek foreign office but as they say the conflict between Cervenkovski and Gruefski could undermine the negotiations FOR NOW. the solution as they say will come after the US elections. All the correspondents from Skopje said that there are indications of non rejection from the goverment but they are cautious for who will take the responsibility (Gruevski or Cerv.)

[QUOTE=Bratot;3848]You?

haha

You are talking about EU funds, not Greek. Those money, doesnt belong to you, they were given to be managed by Greece in the Balkan pact.[/QUOTE]
Greece now PAYS in EU , like Germany, France,Netherlands and others.

[QUOTE=Traveller;3850]Greece now PAYS in EU , like Germany, France,Netherlands and others.[/QUOTE]

Exactly,that mean its not ur money anymore but EU money.

From those EU funds your country was builted,so you owe to EU anyway.

Are you familiar with the saying "Duzen ko Grcka"?

:p

[QUOTE=Bratot;3853]Exactly,that mean its not ur money anymore but EU money.

From those EU funds your country was builted,so you owe to EU anyway.

Are you familiar with the saying "Duzen ko Grcka"?

:p[/QUOTE]

No, translate in english please.

[QUOTE=Traveller;3854]No, translate in english please.[/QUOTE]

Since the creaton of the Greek state by the Great Powers that time United Kingdom, France and the Russian Empire, the Greeks owe a lot to them.

Nothing of that have changed today, thats why the saying "Duzen ko Grcka" was known, expressing somebody who is all in debts, "indebted/owing as Greece".

Try to google it : [B]Duzan ko Grcka[/B]

[url]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Duzan+ko+Grcka[/url]


:D

the west at a governmnet level does not give a shit about human rights , it never has . any human rights that have been achievdd have come from the grass roots from the people, from wilberforce to the sufferagets to the civil righst movements in the us. the government intelligentia and most of its media have always lagged behind and clung to the old order.

its the same for us macedonians if they were to accept us as macedonians it would mean they have been wrong all this time about their cherished hellenic cradle of democracy and its colonial land grab in macedonia. hell a pig with lipstick is still a pig, and no body in the western political cultural elites wants to admit it. it would mean having to revive their whole racist history. there is a deep psychological investment in the glory and goodness of hellas, one that the west is unable to divest themseves of .

and clever little wannabe greece is still playing that ancient card at all times, because thats all they have, thats the only card in their pack that is worth anything the rest are all jokers.

so big dora the desperado never talks about her own immeadiate family tree, it would be a liitle embbarassing a half albaanian pretending to be a hellene, much easier to talk about tha past and to villify us as inavaders in our own land. despite all the dna evidence and current historical research she and her suitors in the west will continue to deny us our rights.

i dont know where we should go from here, other than to call their bluff and start cosing up to russia an china.

would they then begin to arm the more radical albanian citizens of macedonia and start painting us with the nasty despotic violent slavs/serb/ russian brush, most likely, can we survive their potential destabilisng tactics, i believe we could.

so far our reasonable, willing, open, pro western political bent has after nearly 20years got us nowhere. show some nerve gruevski and co, next time nimitz comes with an oiffering tell him straight." mr nimtez we know your hands are tied and you must continue this charde, but we are no loneegr able to play our role in this farce. we are macedonians and nothing less is acceptable. please convey to those hellenic pretenders, that the jig is up and they can bring on their veto their embargo and whatever else greece has in store for us. this is our line in the sand our alamo, our identity is not negoitable".

How many years ... and now North Macedonia?
 

Is that the best Nimetz could do?

its the dance of the mad we are involved in risto, i dont believe nth macedonia would be accpetable to the athenian lunatics. they are on a roll now they think obama their man will soon give them whatever they want.

Hang on hang on. Hasn't North Macedonia been suggested (and therefore rejected) before? Why is Nimetz collaborating directly with the grci regarding this?

osiris is right in saying they think that Obama their saviour will force us to be anything but Macedonia now.

Which is why I think it is time for Macedonia to hop into bed with someone else.

[QUOTE=osiris;3867]i dont believe nth macedonia would be accpetable to the athenian lunatics. they are on a roll now they think obama their man will soon give them whatever they want.[/QUOTE]
Who gives a shit that it is not acceptable to the Athenian lunatics.
The fact that it [I]appears [/I]to be acceptable to the likes of Crvenkovski says more about us than it does for the Greeks. Shame on all Macedonians if this transpires.

I can't believe what has happened in the dynamic over the last month with that sellout Crvenkovski ... it would be treason in any other country.

I take it "Nort Macedonia" is completely unacceptable to the majority of you guys?

Nimetz's proposal were REJECTED today by the main greek opposition party (socialists) because: a) of the "Macedonian" language and basically b) even though your country's name in every international organization will be North Macedonia , it leaves a window for billateral relations for every country to call you as they want. It seems to me that the opposition is saying what the goverment wants to say but is afraid of the Americans. Behind the lines you can read "let's wait for the American elections".

yes that's what greece is waiting for the us elections traveeller is also right the opposition is expressing opinions the government wants to but does not becuse it wants to be seen in eu and american eyes as trying to solve the name issue.

risto, crvenkovski represents an insignificant minority in macedonia, his last approval rating was 6%.

[QUOTE=osiris;3880]risto, crvenkovski represents an insignificant minority in macedonia, his last approval rating was 6%.[/QUOTE]
Yet he apparently represents our country!
Damn it.

So ... has any Macedonian politician stood up and been defiant on this issue?
Gruevski is disappointing me at the moment, from a state of nationalistic fervour, we have seen a dilution to nothing but compromise now. And the timing could not be any worse.

People ....

It's not just about a name change ....

The devil is in the detail. It's also the restrictions on how and when they can use the term 'Macedonia'.

The Macedonians are behaving like they are in no position to negotiate anything, and Greece is raping them, only because they are allowing themselves to be raped.

Had Gruevski forgotten about the Interim Accord ? Why doesn't he defend this Accord, or is that also not worth the paper its written on ! This government has to find some fkn principles fast. It has no idea who it represents, or what it stands for. Someone's probably convinced him (Crvenko and the diaspora), that the Macedonians have no need to worry about their identity - they can sell their souls for the so called "democratic" VALUES of the West.

I think their priority is defending their identity - because I say without it they are finished. Now if pursuing these kinds of Western values, at the cost of your ethnic identity, and RIGHTS, is a dangerous fkn precedent to be taking.

Recognizing Kosovo was A BIG MISTAKE.

The Macedonians don't have ANY HUMAN RIGHTS IN ALBANIA.

Why oh Why oh Why do these "Macedonians" think they need a pretty good pretext and reason, to raise the simply issue of their human rights ?

Don't they know that their identity, their history, and their heritage, is being abused ?

Yes indeed Pelister. That is what the whole brouhaha is about -- us being Macedonians.

Gruev is being a soft cock like never before.