SOM, the Macedonian question is still alive.
Until that is solved, we have a situation here where the Chinese is saying he is Japanese.
We have two sides to the story.
Greece refutes yours, and you refute Greeces.
Where to from here?

Macedonia will lose everything if it compromises our identity.
I do not think anything will happen in relation to our name.
There will be a bi-lateral situation, but nothing else.

[QUOTE=Royal Hellas;3205]SOM, the Macedonian question is still alive.
Until that is solved, we have a situation here where the Chinese is saying he is Japanese.
We have two sides to the story.
Greece refutes yours, and you refute Greeces.
Where to from here?[/QUOTE]
Greece refutes ours .... because it believes it has a connection with antiquity that the Macedonians apparently do not. Is this a valid argument? There is no other.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;3207]Macedonia will lose everything if it compromises our identity.
I do not think anything will happen in relation to our name.
There will be a bi-lateral situation, but nothing else.[/QUOTE]
That seems the most likely outcome.

Do you think recognition for our people in Greece will follow, and under what circumstances?

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;3209]That seems the most likely outcome.

Do you think recognition for our people in Greece will follow, and under what circumstances?[/QUOTE]
Listen to the maggots ... solve the name issue, then the rights will follow in Greece. What a load of crap ... this will never ever happen. The only way it will happen in Greece is if Macedonians assert themselves. The Republic can help .... start off with a "dialect investigation" .... then encourage usage of Spolaj Ti etc. in RoM, then re-visit Konevski and make a song and dance about inclusion of Egej in the structure of our language (woohoo, 10 extra words) then encourage a celebration of the Macedonian identity circa 1920 when we were all the same. Do this with a government sponsored cultural centre. .... it goes on .....

I think you are way off here Risto. There will be a change in name, and there will be recognition.

There never was when Yugoslavia and the Socialist Republic of Macedonia was acceptable for the Greeks.
Why would anything change now? Stop pretending, it is sickening.

It will change. The name will change.
When this happens, the "Slav Macedonian" minority will be formally recognised in Greece as such since their will be no more issues with regards to irredentism and the like.
Greece will be delighted to acknowledge and support its long established minority, as long as there is no ambiguity in their identification on the world stage.
The RoM will get the nod from Greece and will join the EU and Nato.

Mate I think you're on the 'nod' given your commentry here. Greece will be the larger loser here, that you can be certain of, because we will never accept the proposals Greece has made.

It will be a bilateral issue and remain as such. Once we are in, then we will push with all our might to get the rights we deserve in Greece, and we will eventually win, for afterall, we are fighting in the name of self-determination and human rights, you are fighting in the name of supression and arrogance.

We don't need handouts of bread crumbs to live happily ever after, better to remain with our identity and dignity intact rather than sellout.

Again, why have they not been acknowledged to date?
Didn't Macedonia happen with Tito ... no-one complained about Tito ... therefore there was no problem before 1990. Recognition was never on the table and still is not. Stop lying and suggesting it will be. We are talking about Greece ... the last bastion of the 19th century.

I acknowledge your position and understand what you are saying, but I still believe that the RoM will change the name. Period.
Everything else will then fall into order.
Don't hold me personally responsible for this situation. It is just the way I see things eventuating.

The reason as given before Risto, as to why no acknowledgement, is because the name issue has to be finalised first. Then and only then can Greece accurately define its minority.

What evidence do you have that suggests Greece will define its minority?
Doesn't that effectively admit that it has been duping the masses for 100 years now.
Why should the Macedonian minority of Greece be called the same name as the changed name of the Republic? For example, let us say in a Greek wet dream, Macedonia is changed to North Macedonia .... why would the Southern Macedonians be called North Macedonians? Are you thick or just toeing the "corporate line"?

That's a load of bull buddy, Greece had since 1949 to recognize the minority by any name it chose, and now all of a sudden they are waiting for the name issue to be sorted out.

Greece has no intention of recognizing anything, we on the other hand will not give anything anymore, let the chips fall where they may, the Macedonian people, language and national identity will live on forever, Greek politics will never change that fact.

For Greece to recognise any ethnic Minority, it will need to re establish the very fabric of their nation. Has this process already been prepared? I don't think so. It seems to me that we have Karaman and Bakoyani as the last bastions of what will be known as 'the old greece' in the future.

If ethnic Macedonians are recognised in Greece, another broader reality will need to be recognised, and that is that Greece is a multiethnic country. It is a fundamental shift in Greece's policy and identity as it is defined today.

Anyone who is trying to tell me that Greece is ready to recognise the Macedonian identity under her status-quo of democratic defficiency, is either pulling my leg or trying to take me for a fool.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;3253]What evidence do you have that suggests Greece will define its minority?
Doesn't that effectively admit that it has been duping the masses for 100 years now.
Why should the Macedonian minority of Greece be called the same name as the changed name of the Republic? For example, let us say in a Greek wet dream, Macedonia is changed to North Macedonia .... why would the Southern Macedonians be called North Macedonians? Are you thick or just toeing the "corporate line"?[/QUOTE]
Greece will define the minority, as surely as the RoM will change its name.
Its a natural and logical conclusion to the current situation.
Greece is a modern European democracy and will honour all of its responsibilities. How can Greece not recognise the minority if they have a clear and accurate name by which o identify them with.
The status quo with the RoM is what is currently stifling the ability of Greece to deliver.
The procrastination from the RoM government on the name issue is clearly evident and is ultimately penalising the minority group.

In a Greek wet dream, and the RoM's nightmare, the name will revert back to Vardarska, but we know that is not an option.
As soon as the name is changed, Greece will be in a position to differentiate the Greek Macedonians from the North Macedonians.

[QUOTE=Coolski;3261]For Greece to recognise any ethnic Minority, it will need to re establish the very fabric of their nation. Has this process already been prepared? I don't think so. It seems to me that we have Karaman and Bakoyani as the last bastions of what will be known as 'the old greece' in the future.

If ethnic Macedonians are recognised in Greece, another broader reality will need to be recognised, and that is that Greece is a multiethnic country. It is a fundamental shift in Greece's policy and identity as it is defined today.

Anyone who is trying to tell me that Greece is ready to recognise the Macedonian identity under her status-quo of democratic defficiency, is either pulling my leg or trying to take me for a fool.[/QUOTE]

Greece does not recognise the Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Victorians are Australians.
They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.
They acknowledge a Bulgarian ethnicity but not a Μacedonian.

[QUOTE=Royal Hellas;3267]Greece does not recognise the Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Victorians are Australians.
They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.
They acknowledge a Bulgarian ethnicity but not a Μacedonian.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think you realise the gravity of the situation, whatsoever. Greece doesn’t care about the name of Macedonia (which is why they only changed the region to the latter in 1988 or 1989 when Yugoslavia was collapsing), Greece cares about its resource rich lands. You have to realise that that geographic area is the richest in Greece, there is even oil off the coast, this was one of if not the fundamental reason for the Balkan wars.

Didn’t you even consider realising as to why so many contradicting and confusing reports exist before and after the division of Macedonia in 1913 in terms of the ethnicity of the people? From many reports, articles and maps saying the whole area of geographic Macedonia there live predominantly Macedonians, with Bulgarian, turks etc and other reports suggesting that the whole area there are mostly Bulgarians and not mentioning Macedonians at all in some reports.

What you should be asking is why is there an abundance of reports, documents and other pieces of evidences, mentioning Macedonians and people referring to themselves as Macedonians before and after the division of Macedonia in 1913, If all the people in Macedonia are actually ethnic Bulgarians.

You have to also remember that these were the times when communication was through letters and speech and not like today through Global media and the internet. Therefore people could do almost whatever they wanted and it could go unnoticed to the world.

Also, have you then to consider as to why the Greek political parties never mention the times before and after the division of Macedonia, but only consider the time of Tito. This is because Greece cannot disprove such evidences whatsoever of the pre existence of Macedonians long before Tito. But what Greece try’s to do instead is attempt to desperately claim Greek connection with the Macedonians from ancient times, and therefore refocuses attentions towards ancient times, and forces Macedonians to try and proof their existence with the ancients, thus forgetting everything and all recent evidences before Tito. Greece does this because if they can somehow claim connection with the ancient Macedonians they can claim rights to the lands they now occupy. You have to remember that the land that Greece holds is tied up in a treaty, thus its not because it has historically owned it.

Have you also considered as to why it is that as of today many historians, especially those from elite institutions no longer consider the past ignorant claims of Macedonians as Greeks? Thus why would many historians and experts move away for the most part from the old traditional view if the Macedonians are undoubtedly Greeks? The fact is it’s politically motivated.

How can Greece say only Greeks live in Greece, but then Greek-Macedonians exits, Then Greeks can refer to themselves as Macedonians but ethnic Macedonians cannot?

How many Greeks in and around 1913 (or even before), can claim them being Macedonian from just before the division of Macedonia?

How many Greek speakers or whatever it is they spoke from Asia Minor and the surrounding regions (which estimate well over 1,000,000), referred to themselves on record or any other pieces of evidences as Macedonians before and during the population transfers in the early to mid twentieth century.

Why a published primer in 1925 by Greece referred in it the Macedonian language, but was just as quickly withdrawn?

I don’t understand how you can’t think for a moment as to Why? Why? Why?

The questions relating to the ancients is not whether Macedonians were Greek (because Macedonians were never referred to as Greeks nor did they refer to themselves as such – this the historians know),. its whether Alexander may have been at least half Greek. But does this give Greece an entire claim to the whole history of Macedonia (sure they can respect Alexander but to say that Macedonia is and always will be Greek despite all the evidence and experts views as of today) and then deprive the people who have always referred to themselves as Macedonian, and at the same time forces a nation of people to alter their nations name (due to political will and against all international norms).

The Macedonians have been fighting for Macedonia’s right to independence before its division in 1913, and led many uprising before. The name of the country is ultimately tied to our identity; just As Greece is to Greek.

But this again is pointless because you’ll never bother asking why so much evidence exists (a major problem in today’s Greece, granted there are exemptions) of us being referred to and known as simply Macedonian. You always assume this is what is and there are no exemptions to it, a trait familiar to Greece’s government initiatives.

I can assure you that Greece has taken all these points you raise into consideration as they are discussing the name dispute in the United Nations.
Lets hope that a solution is achieved quickly so that normal and friendly neighbourly relations can resume, and that irredentist land claims and the like are shelved once and for all.

[QUOTE=Royal Hellas;3305]
so that normal and friendly neighbourly relations can resume.[/QUOTE]

and you believe the crap, a?

In 1960 tensions rose between Greece and Yugoslavia because propagandists from SFRM roamed Greek Macedonia and were causing unrest. Greek macedonian newspapers were asking the goverment not to allow them entry because people were saying that they will kill them.Greece protested to Tito and he said these are Kolisevskis blshit. But Greek historians who the last years were given access to Yugoslavias archives found that Tito was encouraging Kolisevski. MANY TIMES Greece protested for the signs SFR Makedonija in front of Yugoslavian delegations in REGIONAL summits. Roqi boy i am reading everyday a newspaper called "MAKEDONIA". It first circulated in Thessaloniki at 1903...

[QUOTE=Royal Hellas;3267]Greece does not recognise the Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Victorians are Australians.
They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.
They acknowledge a Bulgarian ethnicity but not a Μacedonian.[/QUOTE]
Just like Victorians are Victorians is a more appropriate statement and highlights the stupidity of the Greek argument.

The athenian government's arrogance will be it's downfall. Can't wait to see them squirm when the truth is acknowledged

[QUOTE=Royal Hellas;3267]Greece does not recognise the Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like [B]Victorians are Australians[/B].
They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.
They acknowledge a Bulgarian ethnicity but not a Μacedonian.[/QUOTE]

LOL

I couldnt laugh harder...

How about this one...

Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Macedonians are Europeans.

[IMG]http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w295/miskoni_album/smiley/mysmilie_2148.gif[/IMG]


If only Greece recognize any of the minorities living within Greek boundaries, it will start the total decomposition of the "Greek" nation.


[QUOTE]They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.[/QUOTE]

Finally we agree.
After the main problem of the "Greek" nation is revealed.

[QUOTE=Royal Hellas;3267]Greece does not recognise the Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Victorians are Australians.
They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.
They acknowledge a Bulgarian ethnicity but not a Μacedonian.[/QUOTE]

Coolski would support this in principle.

He supports the principle that the Macedonian nationality, may well be Greek in origin, or Albanian. Basically anyone who "feels" Macedonian can be, regardless of their ethnic origin.

Pelister, I think you have substantially misinterpreted Coolski's posts.


How will the name game end?

Either capitulation by Macedonia, leading to a potential civil war in Macedonia (now that the majority of the population is against capitulation, it may lead to Governments being overthrown, etc)

or a potential war with Greece, once we get deeper into the Macedonian question and take the focus off the name.

Macedonia is no longer negotiating on the name because of the 'Interim Agreement'. The Interim Agreement has been anulled, it's no longer the basis for the name discussions.

Macedonia now (or rather, soon, but not soon enough) can bring the 'name dispute' to an end via the UN vote - it has not done so yet because it doesn't feel it has the diplomatic position needed to make that move. So, Macedonia continues to sit on the table and 'negotiate' (or waste time) until the time is right ('right', in the Government's opinion, in my opinion it has never been a better time).

There are a number of 'terms' in the Interim Agreement that Macedonia will not abide by, given that they are no longer basing talks in the interim agreement.

[QUOTE=Pelister;3343]Coolski would support this in principle.

He supports the principle that the Macedonian nationality, may well be Greek in origin, or Albanian. Basically anyone who "feels" Macedonian can be, regardless of their ethnic origin.[/QUOTE]
No he wouldn't Pelister.
I think you have a misunderstanding that we could all have between Nationality and Ethnicity.

For example, I believe Greece has hundreds of thousands of people who are Greek by Nationality but are Macedonian by ethnicity. Now what is happening to their ethnicity over time is another issue.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;3356]No he wouldn't Pelister.
I think you have a misunderstanding that we could all have between Nationality and Ethnicity.

For example, I believe Greece has hundreds of thousands of people who are Greek by Nationality but are Macedonian by ethnicity. Now what is happening to their ethnicity over time is another issue.[/QUOTE]


Nationality vs Ethnicity? How do you separate the two?

To be a member of the Greek Nationality today, what does one have to do? Prove they are a Greek by genus, even if they are not?

The Greek Nationality is more than just a membership, or an identikit, isn't it?

Can someone with a Macedonian Nationality also have a Greek Nationality?

Is it as simple as saying I'm a citizen of this State, and a citizen of that State, therefore, I have a dual-Nationality? Sure, that is possible.

Is Nationality more than just citizenship? It could be I suppose. What form would it take if it was? How does one demonstrate their Greek Nationality? Is it simply a matter of saying I feel Greek, therefore, I am Greek? It's possible.

Can can a single word or line, in a manifesto [I]accurately represent [/I]or [I]define[/I] a Nationality? I don't think it can, and I don't think it should.


Did Albanians fighting under foriegn military command, against the Ottomans in Greece, have a Greek Nationality, or an Albanian Nationality, or both?

Another HUGE mistake being made is that Nationality relates to the emergence of the Nation state. One could argue the Macedonians had more of Nationality in the 1830's, than the Greeks, despite not having a Nation state for over another century.

The Macedonian Nationality didn't just magically appear to magically represent everyone.

I think that taking a post-modern interpretation of a few words in the Krushevo manifesto, is faslely represeting the Macedonian Nationality, which has in historical terms, represented the Macedonian ethnic group exclusively.

Sure, we could have even two or three nationalities these days, but the Macedonian nationality, has in historical terms, been nothing but Macedonian.

The Name Issue !
 

[url]http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3758/45/[/url]

Should they be negotiating at all?

Havn't the Macedonians compromised enough already?

Could it end badly for the Macedonians? Are the Macedonians somehow "trapped" by these negotiations? Are the negotiations false, i.e., based on false assumptions, taken as truths?

Should negotiations end ?

Negotiations should never have started.

[QUOTE]We await a meeting with Mr. Crvenkovski, where he will inform us of what has been discussed or agreed and once we know that, we will decide on what the future steps will be[/QUOTE]
I hope it is a hangman's noose for Crvenkovski!

Me too.

I can't believe one man can cause so much trouble.

[QUOTE=Royal Hellas;3266]Greece will define the minority, as surely as the RoM will change its name.
Its a natural and logical conclusion to the current situation.
Greece is a modern European democracy and will honour all of its responsibilities. How can Greece not recognise the minority if they have a clear and accurate name by which o identify them with.
The status quo with the RoM is what is currently stifling the ability of Greece to deliver.
The procrastination from the RoM government on the name issue is clearly evident and is ultimately penalising the minority group.

In a Greek wet dream, and the RoM's nightmare, the name will revert back to Vardarska, but we know that is not an option.
As soon as the name is changed, Greece will be in a position to differentiate the Greek Macedonians from the North Macedonians.[/QUOTE]

You're really living in a fantasy world RH....you and your macedoniaontheweb buddies.

The majority of you are Pontians that invaded an area 85-90 years ago. You are not Macedonian. You are gloryfying something that is not even yours. Like the song goes "So chuzhki tsar se radvale." You could not have told me that your original roots if you are a Pontian came from Aegean Macedonia? Get that thru your thick skull.

My parents and grandparents are from Lerin. My father could not even speak Greek until the age of 6. He was brought up as an ordinary "Macedonian" child during a time when teachers used to cain you for speaking Macedonian, which the Greeks considered to be an idiom. Now RH are you gonna tell me that's a form of democracy?

I'll tell you now even if RoM do manage to have the rights of the Aegean Macedonians granted, we will not see a dramatic change. Like it or not the citizens will still have that fear standing behind them. Its unfortunate but its true.

Obama and McCain advisors on Macedonia and Greece
 

[url]http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3829/46/[/url]

The name issue and talks between Macedonia and Greece under UN mediation were one of the topics at the conference New Allies and the New US Administration: Priorities for Central and Eastern Europe – US Relations, which took place at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, Voice of America in Macedonian language reported.

Senior Foreign Policy Advisors to presidential candidates, the Senators John McCain and Barack Obama, presented their positions announcing that the US will continue its engagement in the Balkans.

Kori Schake, Senior Foreign Policy Advisor to Senator John McCain, said that NATO enlargement has no alternative and it is sad that Greece blocked the admission of Macedonia in the Alliance.

- It is sad that Greece blocked Macedonia’s admission in NATO. I think that it will be good friend and ally to the US. Helping in stabilising a country, which made wise decisions in the past 10 years, is in our interest the country to become member of the Alliance. My personal position is that Greece should outdo itself, Kori Schake said.

[B]Philip Gordon, Senior Foreign Policy Advisor to Senator Barack Obama[/B], reminded that the Senator for Illinois supports the NATO enlargement process and announced that US will still be engaged in the Balkans.

[B]According to Gordon, the US should not take side in Macedonian – Greek name dispute.
[/B]
- Mutually acceptable solution for the name for two parties should be reached. It is not good the US to urge for one of the parties in the process, which could reflect in larger instability, instead in stability in the region, Gordon said.

Perhaps the "wind of change" that Traveller was talking about was merely a wishful little fart.

Biden and Obama have signed even the most hostile resolutions against your country. BUT we can gain more during the Bush administration. If he is so eager to get you in NATO he should listen us more in the matters of ethnicity and language(since i believe that the name issue is already solved). IF he wants to get you in NATO he has to give us more AS THE GREEK NEGOTIATORS HAVE BLATANTLY TOLD HIM.

Seriously, why should Greeks be listened to in matters of ethnicity and language. They are hardly experts in the matter.

I am glad you believe the name issue is already solved. You might get a surprise.

The Greeks run the risk of irrelevance as their demands already seem petty to outsiders. Soon they will be mocked publicly for their petulance. Lick your finger and check the wind direction.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;3697]Seriously, why should Greeks be listened to in matters of ethnicity and language. They are hardly experts in the matter.

I am glad you believe the name issue is already solved. You might get a surprise.

The Greeks run the risk of irrelevance as [COLOR="Olive"]their demands already seem petty to outsiders. [/COLOR]Soon they will be mocked publicly for their petulance. Lick your finger and check the wind direction.[/QUOTE]

Yesterday, Schaeffer (=NATO) told you "it is hard for you , but if you want to join NATO and EU you have to change the name". It is so simple. Do you want to join NATO or EU? If you say yes , you know what to do. If you say no under this "blackmail" poverty and civil unrest will dismantle your country. This is Greece's AND NATO plus EU view.

On what basis do you conclude that poverty and civil unrest will dismantle the Republic of Macedonia. There are no indicators whatsoever for such an outcome.

[QUOTE=Traveller;3699]Yesterday, Schaeffer (=NATO) told you "it is hard for you , but if you want to join NATO and EU you have to change the name". It is so simple. Do you want to join NATO or EU? If you say yes , you know what to do. If you say no under this "blackmail" poverty and civil unrest will dismantle your country. This is Greece's AND NATO plus EU view.[/QUOTE]

If what you say is true, then blackmail is the course of the day.

What can the Macedonians learn from this? The strong suggestion coming from NATO and obviously the E.U is that Macedonian soveriegnty, identity and human rights, are simply not respected, nor are they recognized.

The Greek lie, and lobby group has been working hard to convice other E.U members, that Macedonians do not exist - that anyone calling himself a Macedonia - is an insult to the Greek nation, and to the Greek heritage, and the E.U and NOW NATO believe it. Tell a lie long enough, and people start believing it.

The Macedonians can learn from this.

Pursue strong bilateral relations, especially economic, military and political with friends i.e, Turkey, Ukraine...etc

It should end the "negotiations" on the grounds that Greece wants to wipe out its identity, history, culture, heritage.

Only the truth will set them free. Now given the climate, there are going to be people out there who support the Greek lie, regardless of what the Macedonians say or do.

Make a Statement, that the Greek State has been Hellenizing a part of Macedonia, and that the Macedonians, were historically, never Greeks ! This needs to be said.

Greece is fighting this on historical grounds; expose that, and you expose everything.

Find friends in the U.S, Turkey ... and others who respect and recognize the Macedonians.

Greece will define "everything" as it defines itself.

It wants to be the author of every individual, every event, every group, every identity in that region; as though it has the only and all supreme power to write the history of the region, which it has enjoyed for the better part of 150 years.

Now the Macedonians have come along, to shake up the Greek monopoly on history.

The Greeks, on the other hand, don't want to give it up. They still want to be the authors and Godfather, of everything and everyone in the region.

The Greeks have had enormous power, the kind of power every colonial overlord enjoys over his beaten and vanquished foes; and they are not about to give this up.

A Macedonian State north of the border, is a HUGE fkn threat to little old Greece, because the Greeks bit off a bit more than they could chew in 1912. I figure they'd been stealing other peoples lands, homes and villages for so long (with the blessing and aid of Europe), sooner or later, it would bite back.

I used to think that the threat was to the Lies of Greece, i.e., the Greek Nationality...ETC.

That may be true, but its incidental. I realise now that the Greeks are afraid of losing Macedonia - the kind of fear being generated by the Greek state toward the tiny Macedonian Republic can only come from a view that they (the Greeks) never once genuine believed Macedonia actually belonged to them. 19th century Greek historians didn't think Macedonia was a part of Greece. Greece only renames its most Northern Province to 'Macedonia' in 1989 !