[QUOTE=Giorikas;19318]Hello Sovius,

Why don't you do the same, find a bunch of PHD's to discredit the Greek position. That should give us an idea how well accpted or controversial your position is.[/QUOTE]

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You just referred to me as a Nazi a few posts back, because I am someone who regards the Macedonian Ethnocide as a crime against humanity and now you are suggesting that I dig George Finlay up from his grave to engage some parrots in intellectual combat?

Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant!

Nimitz latest proposal, good or bad?
 

[url]http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/?ItemID=E7C6DC7DEE87F94E84DFD6AFA6818A94[/url]

[QUOTE]неофициЈално обЈавени промените во последниот пакет идеи на посредникот за името

Две опции за јазикот и нацијата

Нимиц ги предложил варијантите - една со латинична транскрипција на нашиот збор „македонски“, втора со новото сложено име и „македонски“ во заграда преведено на странските јазици

Република Северна Македонија за името на државата и две варијанти за јазикот и нацијата - „makedonski“ (како што е во нашиот јазик, но напишано на латиница) и „(Macedonian) Republic of North Macedonia“, се измените во последниот пакет идеи на посредникот Метју Нимиц, објави вчера скопската телевизија „Сител“.

Според информацијата, за името на државата би се користела формула со која името Република Северна Македонија (Republic of North Macedonia) би се користело во меѓународната употреба, а уставното име за внатрешна и за билатерална. Но, во пакет со ова е и препораката на Обединетите нации - земјите да го употребуваат новото сложено име. Скопската телевизија соопшти дека деталите од содржината на предлогот ги добила од „дипломатски извори“.

Посредникот во грчко-македонскиот спор за името на нашата земја Метју Нимиц неодамна ги посети Скопје и Атина при што презентира „мали“, како што самиот ги опиша, измени во октомврискиот пакет-идеи во кои исто така се предвидуваше меѓународно име Република Северна Македонија и препорака, а за јазикот и нацијата беше понудено да бидат македонски со алтернативи (официјален јазик на Република Северна Македонија и граѓанин на Северна Република Македонија). По средбите со македонските и грчките претставници тој изјави дека „сега е поголем оптимист за решавање на прашањето за името“.

Грчкиот весник „Навтемборики“ вчера ја пренесе изјавата на грчката министерка за надворешни работи Дора Бакојани дека е неопходно да се најде име „што ќе се користи од сите“. Весникот истакнува дека таа упатила јасна порака до властите во Скопје, кои прават обиди во евентуалното решение да нема препораки кон трети држави да го признаат новото име на државата.

- Она што треба да биде јасно е дека разговараме за едно решение, кое ќе се практикува. И единствен начин е името да важи за сите - изјави Бакојани.

Македонската и грчката страна своите одговори за предлогот треба да му ги достават на посредникот метју Нимиц до август.

САД чекаат решение

Заменик-државниот секретар на САД, Џејмс Стајнберг, изразил желба прашањето за грчко-македонскиот спор за името да биде затворено со компромис за Македонија да стане членка во НАТО. Стајнберг ова го посочил на средбата со македонскиот министер за надворешни работи, Антонио Милошоски во Дубровник, беше официјално соопштено во Скопје.

„На средбата со Стајнберг повторно беа истакнати напредокот во реформските процеси и придонесот на Република Македонија во мировните мисии, особено во Авганистан, а беше искажано и заемно задоволство од начинот на кој се одвива стратегиското партнерство помегу РМ и САД“, се истакнува во соопштението.[/QUOTE]

A crap as usual.

Yes, it is utter crap, we Macedonians need to tell Mr. Nimitz that we will end the name negotiations here and now.

[QUOTE=Daskalot;19417]Yes, it is utter crap, we Macedonians need to tell Mr. Nimitz that we will end the name negotiations here and now.[/QUOTE]

Would be nice if the goverment does that, but kinda doubt that.

Seems that there is a preasure from all sides, and Gruevsi is trieing to prolong this cause he fears consequences if he yield.

He is good man, it appears, cause unlike the others, at least during his mandate things happened and things got built in Macedonia.

But on the end, I don't know what will come up out of this.

This is by far the most absurd proposal this overpaid idiot from the UN has suggested.

I know, we can be Republic of Macedonia, except spelt in Chinese symbols, idiots :6:

How utterly offensive.
I cannot believe this behaviour has been tolerated for so long.
If Macedonians are unable to forge and shape their destiny, then the UN and any other group of racists will continue to feel compelled to do their job for them. Can you imagine telling a competent adult how he should run his life?

[QUOTE=Sovius;19394]Let me see if I understand you correctly. You just referred to me as a Nazi a few posts back, because I am someone who regards the Macedonian Ethnocide as a crime against humanity and now you are suggesting that I dig George Finlay up from his grave to engage some parrots in intellectual combat?

Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant![/QUOTE]

I don't remember calling you personally a Nazi. Please provide the link. I called others Nazi in reaction to calling me racist. That's way over the top.
Secondly, I don't see the connection to what I said in that last message. I repeat, if there are some 300 PHD's or so that support the Greek side in a letter, surely you can do the same with PHD's that support your side.
Thirdly, the reason why I mentioned these PHD's is not to show you that I'm right because they say so. Theoretically they can all be wrong of course. It's to show you that I'm not the olnly one who finds it difficult to believe that you remained pure of blood, unmixed with anyone (especially with God forbid Turks or Bulgarians), and direct descendants of Ancient Macedonians.
There are PHD's that say the same thing as I. There are even politicians in ROM who said the same thing. So how can I be isolated ?

Giorikas, I have been overseas. I understand a cockroach can live without its head for 12 days. I thought you would be alright without a response for a while. Apparently not.

When the top professors of the top universities call Alexander's ethnicity "dubious" and are aware of the persecution of minorities in Greece, it is clear that your "signatories" have acute knowledge of the situation but understand the economics of their existence and give it more priority than their conscience.

I asked each of the professors if they would mind making our private correspondence public. They declined. Being a man of integrity, I have honoured their wishes. It is a shame because the correspondence with the people I have had would absolutely blow any of these perceived Greek arguments out of the water. As ultimately the debate can only be focussed on modern arguments about sovereignty and the right to self identification. Greece knows it will fail this argument every time. It has no provinces called Macedonia. Please feel free to check. Not that it matters anyway.

When professors of leading institutions are admitting they are funded by Greece on many projects it is not difficult to understand their motivation for signing that hateful letter.

Feel free to read the link on this website to Professor Tompkins review of the Miller letter. Tell me what you disagree with. Interestingly, the professors from esteemed universities around the world were also unable to disagree with the points he raised. Yet they signed a letter to secure future funding it would seem.

I promise you, you are most welcome to visit me and I will show you my private correspondence with these people. Call it a Haji pilgrimage to Australia if you like.

[QUOTE=Rogi;19388]Giorikas, most professors with whom a number of Macedonians have had contact, who are alleged 'signatories' to Miller's list, have privately stated their opposition to Miller's letter and its intention.

They have also asked that any private correspondence remain private - and I suppose understandably so when their livelihood is at stake.

I expect whatever correspondence Risto has had with any professors, is of the same nature.

Nobody needs to prove anything to you, since you are an irrelevant non-factor for this case.[/QUOTE]

Well, it's odd. These are PHD's not politicians. I believe (regardsless which side they would support) that no one would let their professional reputation be affected. (by co-signing something something) Especially if they 'oppose it'.
It's odd that they should have private correspondances with complete strangers, where not only they admit this (put their reputation on the line) but in fact admit that they are being paid, and that they will continue to be paid. It doesn't make sense.

Also, I don't see how their livelyhood is at stake. What do you mean ? Will they disappear ? Will they lose their jobs for voicing their opposition ? Will they be denied entry for Greece ? Will their family members be harrassed ?
Finally I don't understand why you should protect your enemy. What do you have to lose ? Also, even if I am glad that a large numer of PHD's think the same way as me, I personally would not like to see bought support. If they agree, good, if not, fine too, (in the end, this is a debate where not everything is crystal clear) but certainly I wouldn't want anybody paid off to agree with me just for reasons of financial benefits.
Summarizing; I consider all this as total nonsense. Either make a statement and back it up, or don't make the statement.

[QUOTE=Giorikas;19469]
Secondly, I don't see the connection to what I said in that last message. I repeat, if there are some 300 PHD's or so that support the Greek side in a letter, surely you can do the same with PHD's that support your side.[/QUOTE]

Giorikas, I think you need to read Alexandras recent response to Prof. Miller please read it here: [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1569[/url]

There you will notice that Miller has revised himself and does not call on the current US administration to revoke its decision in regards to the name of Macedonia, but rather to protect Alexanders legacy.

Please give us your answer in the above mentiond thread, I am really keen on hearing it.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;19471]Giorikas, I have been overseas. I understand a cockroach can live without its head for 12 days. I thought you would be alright without a response for a while. Apparently not.

When the top professors of the top universities call Alexander's ethnicity "dubious" and are aware of the persecution of minorities in Greece, it is clear that your "signatories" have acute knowledge of the situation but understand the economics of their existence and give it more priority than their conscience.

I asked each of the professors if they would mind making our private correspondence public. They declined. Being a man of integrity, I have honoured their wishes. It is a shame because the correspondence with the people I have had would absolutely blow any of these perceived Greek arguments out of the water. As ultimately the debate can only be focussed on modern arguments about sovereignty and the right to self identification. Greece knows it will fail this argument every time. It has no provinces called Macedonia. Please feel free to check. Not that it matters anyway.

When professors of leading institutions are admitting they are funded by Greece on many projects it is not difficult to understand their motivation for signing that hateful letter.

Feel free to read the link on this website to Professor Tompkins review of the Miller letter. Tell me what you disagree with. Interestingly, the professors from esteemed universities around the world were also unable to disagree with the points he raised. Yet they signed a letter to secure future funding it would seem.

I promise you, you are most welcome to visit me and I will show you my private correspondence with these people. Call it a Haji pilgrimage to Australia if you like.[/QUOTE]

I'm quite allright without your responses thank you. Please leave the cockroach references out of it. I'm not doing the same with you. Last warning.

What do you mean with 'each of the professors' ? Do you mean, 'each of the professors you contacted', or 'each of the professors that you contacted and admitted that being paid off' or do you mean, each of the professors on the list.
If it means, 'each of the professors you contacted and admitted being paid off' to a stranger on paper (I find that difficult to believe) then the follwing:
To make it a bit less vague, how many did you contact, and how many admitted being paid off ? You can mention that without exposing anyone. What is the number we can take away from that list.

It's a really strange story. I mean, Greece is a small country that hardly has money to fund it's own university programmes, and has much overdue archeological works that need urgent funding. I find it not very likely that significant enough sums go abroad to foreign universities.

Surely you can (and let everyone draw it's own conclusions based upon that) make an overview of how much money goes from Greece to which foreign universities, per university. That would not expose anyone and you would honor your word not to use that correspondance. That should be public knowlegde.

Giorikas, if I was an expert on Greek affairs, who do you think my best market is? Which newspapers will be most interested in what I have to say? Are you aware of the professors paid by the greek government to misinform the public in the 1990's? Why do you find this difficult to believe, it is painfully obvious what the motivations are. Did you read the Tompkins analysis?

Sorry if the cockroach reference offends Giorikas. But you always seem to crawl out at the most unexpected of times. Perhaps you should warn me again.

Anyone here remember the professor on the Greek payroll who visited Australia? He failed miserably in
Adelaide.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;19487]Giorikas, if I was an expert on Greek affairs, who do you think my best market is? Which newspapers will be most interested in what I have to say? Are you aware of the professors paid by the greek government to misinform the public in the 1990's? Why do you find this difficult to believe, it is painfully obvious what the motivations are. Did you read the Tompkins analysis?

Sorry if the cockroach reference offends Giorikas. But you always seem to crawl out at the most unexpected of times. Perhaps you should warn me again.

Anyone here remember the professor on the Greek payroll who visited Australia? He failed miserably in
Adelaide.[/QUOTE]

So you're not providing me with the numbers. Now, I went along with this story about 'being a man of your word' for arguments sake but this has nothing to do with that. You are distorting the truth again. You suggest a lot, but prove nothing. And when I ask you how many you contacted, and of those how many admitted to have signed the letter for reasons of funding you are dodging the bullet again. Just clarify it so that we all know what you're talking about. (knowing full well that we still won't be able to actually verify it). That would be only fair.

And no, I did not read the Tompkins analysis.

[QUOTE=Giorikas;19491]So you're not providing me with the numbers. Now, I went along with this story about 'being a man of your word' for arguments sake but this has nothing to do with that. You are distorting the truth again. You suggest a lot, but prove nothing. And when I ask you how many you contacted, and of those how many admitted to have signed the letter for reasons of funding you are dodging the bullet again. Just clarify it so that we all know what you're talking about. (knowing full well that we still won't be able to actually verify it). That would be only fair.

And no, I did not read the Tompkins analysis.[/QUOTE]

Giorikas, I have no knowledge to how many and whom Risto has contacted of the signatories, BUT if he only contacted 1 of them and this person admitts to what Risto does state above doesnt that automatically jeopardize the whole validity of the letter?

You see there is no need to ask them all, all we need is one of the signatories, and everything falls apart.

From being a letter of protest to becoming a veichle of propaganda, only 1 is needed.

By the way, I really advice you to read Tompkins response so we can further continue this debate, knowing both sides of the letter so to say.

To help you on your way, here is the response from Tompkins:
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1450[/url]

This is the direct link to his letter:
[url]http://astro.temple.edu/~pericles/Letter.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=Daskalot;19492]Giorikas, I have no knowledge to how many and whom Risto has contacted of the signatories, BUT if he only contacted 1 of them and this person admitts to what Risto does state above doesnt that automatically jeopardize the whole validity of the letter?

You see there is no need to ask them all, all we need is one of the signatories, and everything falls apart.

From being a letter of protest to becoming a veichle of propaganda, only 1 is needed.

By the way, I really advice you to read Tompkins response so we can further continue this debate, knowing both sides of the letter so to say.

To help you on your way, here is the response from Tompkins:
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1450[/url]

This is the direct link to his letter:
[url]http://astro.temple.edu/~pericles/Letter.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

Hmm. It makes a difference if someone keeps in the back of his head that he's (co) funded by Greece when asked to sign a letter, or whether he received active pressure. ( to protect his livelyhood as someone suggested here)

It sure makes a difference if this is only 1 Professor or all of them. I can't help it if someone fears being cut from funds so regardless what he would have done, he signs the letter.

It makes a difference finding out how many different profs from how many different universities we are actually talking about. I see a large number of different universities on that list and I have a hard time believeing that each single university programme programme on that list is sponsored by Greece to such an serious extent that they woiuld fear omitting their name from a list.

It makes also a difference whether these professors are paid personally off (as initially suggested by Risto the Great), or that they are part of a university programme that receives to a certain degree financial support from Greece. The second option is already much lighter then the first.

It certainly makes a difference if these 'facts' you brought to light are verifyable or not. Not being verifyable make your claims more gossip then something else.

Not to mention that it is very strange indeed that someone would confess that on paper to someone possibly on the other side of the world. You NEVER put these things in writing.

Now how much money do you suggest is pumped in all these programmes ? It should be huge sums eh ..

Will check your link sometime.

Giorikas, I picked the most esteemed universities and contacted the professors. You saw the kind of letter I wrote I believe. It certainly generated responses with some useful replies. I can honestly tell you that they gave us some huge inspiration in the sense that the arguments were baseless and a trifle embarrassing for the professors. I can guarantee these professors will never meddle in this kind of nationalistic rubbish again. What does ancient history have to do with modern nations?

And by the way, remember .... THERE IS NO PROVINCE IN GREECE CALLED MACEDONIA. I thought I would remind you again. My people come from what is now called the province of West Macedonia in Greece. I am not confused by this. If you have a limited education, perhaps you could get that confused with the Republic of Macedonia. So I am yet to understand why there is even a debate about this nonsensical issue.

I am getting a little sick and tired of you commenting about things without reading appropriate links. Start with the Tompkins analysis. Read it and tell us what you disagree with. Stop being such an ignorant fool who ignores the opposing view. Remember, you don't come from Greece, you need as much help as possible to truly understand. And as yet another Diaspora Greek person, we all know you are typically the most deluded kind. So read the link, learn something and feel free to attack some little comment in the way you know best .... as annoying as a household pest (guess which one).

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;19497]Giorikas, I picked the most esteemed universities and contacted the professors. You saw the kind of letter I wrote I believe. It certainly generated responses with some useful replies. I can honestly tell you that they gave us some huge inspiration in the sense that the arguments were baseless and a trifle embarrassing for the professors. I can guarantee these professors will never meddle in this kind of nationalistic rubbish again. What does ancient history have to do with modern nations?

And by the way, remember .... THERE IS NO PROVINCE IN GREECE CALLED MACEDONIA. I thought I would remind you again. My people come from what is now called the province of West Macedonia in Greece. I am not confused by this. If you have a limited education, perhaps you could get that confused with the Republic of Macedonia. So I am yet to understand why there is even a debate about this nonsensical issue.

I am getting a little sick and tired of you commenting about things without reading appropriate links. Start with the Tompkins analysis. Read it and tell us what you disagree with. Stop being such an ignorant fool who ignores the opposing view. Remember, you don't come from Greece, you need as much help as possible to truly understand. And as yet another Diaspora Greek person, we all know you are typically the most deluded kind. So read the link, learn something and feel free to attack some little comment in the way you know best .... as annoying as a household pest (guess which one).[/QUOTE]

Yes, I read again that THERE IS NO PROVINCE IN GREECE CALLED MACEDONIA. Now what's your point here? What's the relevance to the 340 or so PHD's that signed a letter? We are right now discussing about that. Not about where your people are from, and not about provinces in Greece.

Again, you did not provide any sort of concrete information, given the restriction that I will accept for now that you don't want to expose the, ehh, cockroaches once again as you called them before. (that you will use your pesticide on). There's a difference between exterminating cockroaches and protecting their anonymity ... but ok, we'll let that slip through knowing who said it.
Now once again, how many admitted that they were paid off by Greece and that did not support the letter? How many times do I need to ask you that question? How many were [I]not[/I] paid off ?

The Tomkins 'analysis' as you say is not the point here. I read it and I don't see the point to comment on that now. Normal that some will not support that letter. I expected nothing less. Now you position 1 Thomson analysis against 340 signatures and and I am taking 'the opposing view' ? Funny.

Actually, I don't know if you noticed but the [I]contents[/I] of that letter is not what we're discussing here. What I would like to demonstrate is that your initial statements are hot air, can not be proven and without substance. You are then asking me to take your word for something. Tricky. You were saying that 'The professors' are quite embarrased by it, suggesting that that applies to all or at least to a great number, when in fact you do not want to give us the number even. Is it 1 PHD ? 5? 10 ? 100 ? 340 ? Are you really going to think that anybody would believe that all these universities and/or all these professors are 'paid off' by Greece?
There's an awful lot of them. Why don't you take another break, and reality check too while you're at it..

Giorikas, I would like to point something out to you, Risto is referring to you as a cockroach, I do not mean to be disrespectful in any way, but that is how interpret his wordings.

[QUOTE=Daskalot;19516]Giorikas, I would like to point something out to you, Risto is referring to you as a cockroach, I do not mean to be disrespectful in any way, but that is how interpret his wordings.[/QUOTE]

I once called him an old timer and he got really upset by that so I'll be generous one last time.

No no ... "old timer" is far more generous than "cockroach".

But anyway, if you can join the dots Giorikas .... by being funded by Greek organisations to present their research, these professors have a perceived obligation to sign letters as created by Miller. So they were NOT paid to sign the letter, thy have been paid for many years for many different matters. By not signing the letter, they would ensure reduced income streams in the future.

5 replies is the number, I wrote about 8 letters. I certainly did not write to any Greeks (the majority of the signatories) and I certainly did not write to the university of some backwater country. Just the BIG ones.

[QUOTE]Now you position 1 Thomson analysis against 340 signatures and and I am taking 'the opposing view' ? Funny.[/QUOTE]
An ANALYSIS against some signatures. As I said, some of the signatories are already backing away from the sentiment of that letter. The people I queried said they disagree with Tompkins but when I asked them why, they could not tell me why. I love it. Professors from the highest learning institutions who simply could not admit what was wrong with Tompkins' assessment. Naturally, I am sure you could pick it all to shreds with your higher learning and all.

Now i have found out a second follow up letter exists, I must read it to determine what has changed. Unlike you, I read both sides of the argument.

Bravo. We've come a long way.

This is what you wrote originally:

Quote: 'Ummm, I asked the Professors. They were embarrassed if you really want to know. Quite apologetic too. And guess what, they HAVE been paid by the Greek State. And guess why they will not take their names off the list .... because they will CONTINUE to be paid by the Greek State.'

From that quote (suggesting all are embarresed and paid off) we went to a more modest 8 letters sent, 5 replies, un unknown number of those 5 have pro-actively signed a letter because they had a [I]perceived[/I] obligation to do so. No pressure, no pay offs. That perceived obligation in itself does not mean that they disagree with the contents per se. Maybe they would find the letter and the fact is was sent to Obama a bit, ehmm, too political. Or maybe they found calling on the US to stop using the name ROM too much. Historians do not do these things normally. Maybe that is the reason why Miller revised the letter later, to accomodate those professors who are now satisfied ? Who knows ?

Now would they (even reluctantly) sign a letter denying the holocaust for example ? For sure not. In fact I seriously doubt that they any self respecting professor would put his reputation on the line by signing something he complete would oppose. Again, I suspect that they found Miller's circus a bit over the top.
You just wrote to the big ones, eh ? Now you're suggesting that apart from the the Ivy Leage universities plus Oxford and Cambridge all are simple backwater universities. Thanks for that, I guess all of us here that did not graduate at Ivy leage or cambridge / Oxford are a bunch of uneducated fools. Of course there are other universities of importance.

Now to be honest, I really don't care too much for that letter even if I find it amusing. The point I was making when discussing with Sovius was that my views are not isolated at all.
How could it be ? Apart from those 342 who signed the letter, there's just about all neigbouring countries with whom there are differences of opinion.
There's of course a problem with Greece about Alexander the Great that you claim as yours (including a pure bloodline), there's problems with with Bulgaria about Tsar Samuel, and many other topics including the leaders of the Ilinden uprising, with Serbia about the so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church'. With all Orthodox and other churches for that matter for not accepting that the MOC is Orthodox.

Then there are plenty of Macedonian politicians (and no doubt more to follow) who are labelled as: Racist/sell out/traitor. There is the recently added 'Brat' Ljube, there was Branco Crvenkovski, and many others. Soon Ivanov will be labelled and Gruevski, since they will be forced to do what they need to do to make ROM survive: (a burden that professional Macedonians like yourself do not have to carry) find a solution and take responsibility. Some are saying things that would get me banned immediately here. Such as: That Macedonians are Bulgarians, nothing else then Slav, others say that you are in no way related to anncient Macedonians, and so on, and so on.

Let's not get in to all that now, those things are really debated millions of times. You can do that with someone else. But please do not make make the mistake to assume that my views are the exception to the rule. (regardless who is right in all above examples). [U]Concluding[/U] this revealing dialogue:

Whichever name will be negotiated (and we know that ROM or Macedonia will not be the final name), above topics will always remain controversial. You should know that. That is your future: a negotiated and compromised name and much controversy. That is the best case scenario of course. Wishing you a nice day, Risto the Great

Wow, for someone so concerned about the letter and sticking to the point, I am somewhat perplexed with your launch into the Serbian church etc. Was that in the Miller letter?

[QUOTE]Now would they (even reluctantly) sign a letter denying the holocaust for example ? For sure not. In fact I seriously doubt that they any self respecting professor would put his reputation on the line by signing something he complete would oppose. [/QUOTE]
What a stupid argument you have put forward here. The holocaust has the support of public opinion. To deny it would be academic suicide. We are talking about the complete opposite situation. You don't get it do you.

I explained the context in which I used the term "paid off" .... it does not suit you so you carry on with your little dream of cheques in the mail. Why are you so petty about this? Do you think my assessment is unreasonable? I can confirm a professor was paid by the Greek State in the 1990's to spread propaganda about Macedonia. He came to Adelaide and was thoroughly questioned by local Macedonians. His replies were not good enough for the local Greeks so they walked out in disgust. I think they wanted to hear that Alexander only spoke pure modern Greek and was a good Orthodox christian.

The professors who signed that letter were doing something that felt quite reasonable and unoffensive to them. Pulic opinion is in their favour, why shouldn't they do it? Does it mean they are correct?

One of the professors felt that it was inappropriate for modern Macedonians to adopt the [I]many [/I]historical symbols of the ancient Hellenes and people like Alexander. I replied using his own words to mention that Alexander had a dubious ethnicity and I then inquired which ancient symbols were being used by modern Macedonians. Noting that only one symbol was being used and that it was prevalent all over the Republic of Macedonia. Guess what .... things got quiet pretty fast.

You know I was quite delighted to recently learn (here) that the Slavs of Morea were divided into two major groups. Thise that were part of the Roman Empire and those that rejected it. Do you think even one person in Greece knows this? Even I only knew about the Slavic tribes that [I]opposed [/I]the Romans. How could we have so many slavic placenames in Southern Greece without such dominance? Why is such information so hard to come by? Who would want to know that revised and compromised identity of modern Greeks? Where would funding for research come from? Why would the world favour this new knowledge? Instead I am sure some people even believe the name "Morea" comes from some obscure ancient Greek word. Funny isn't it?

There are reasons why some politicians are labelled as sellouts. They have changed their opinions and complete belief systems. Do they deserve respect from people that followed their previous beliefs? Imagine if Greece got honest with itself about its last 2000 years of history. People like you would perhaps label your own leaders as sellouts and traitors. All part of a good game isn't it.

Thank you for trying to plant your demented seeds of "reason" into this argument. But I understand your objectives all too clearly. Grow up and move forward from your hatred, it is not good for a person. Perhaps it suits pests more though.

[QUOTE]There's of course a problem with Greece about Alexander the Great that you claim as yours (including a pure bloodline).....[/QUOTE]
And what exactly was the connection between Alexander the Great and the Albanians of Athens? Oh that's right, nothing. Look here you imbecile, the politicians of mongrel (oops, 'modern') Greece make reference to their so-called 'Hellenic' past almost daily, yet I am still waiting to see Dora Vlakoyanni sacrifice one of her fellow goats at Delphi, let us know how she goes with that.
[QUOTE].....there's problems with with Bulgaria about Tsar Samuel, and many other topics including the leaders of the Ilinden uprising.....[/QUOTE]
Tsar Samuel, Ilinden, etc, all in Macedonia, today's Macedonians are the cultural, geographic and linguistic descendants of these people. Were we referred to as Bulgarians at some point, were other Slavic-speakers in the Balkans? Sure, if the Italians were as manipulative and confused as today's Greeks and Bulgars, you would be claiming the colonisation of Italy through the 'Grakoi' tribe, lol. Let me know when normality sets in.
[QUOTE]....with Serbia about the so called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church'. With all Orthodox and other churches for that matter for not accepting that the MOC is Orthodox.[/QUOTE]
Hhmm, sounds like a familiar story, and the way you word it, the other Orthodox Churches are "[I]not accepting that the MOC is Orthodox[/I]", lol, do they accept it as Catholic? Protestant? Tell me Giorikas, when the Germans created and administered your new "Hellenic Church" during the 19th century, was it recognized as an Orthodox Church or a Church at all by the Patriarchate of Constantinople?

Let's not stop there, let's see where the Bulgarised Exarchate was at, after its creation, shall we?

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Exarchate[/url]
[QUOTE]The Bulgarian Exarchate (Bulgarian: Българска екзархия Bylgarska ekzarkhia) was the official name of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church before [B][U]its autocephaly was recognized by the Ecumenical See in 1945[/U][/B] and the Bulgarian Patriarchate was restored in 1953...........

The Exarchate (a de-facto autocephaly) was unilaterally (without the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch).............

........the secession from the Patriarchate was officially condemned by the Council in Constantinople in September 1872 as schismatic.[/QUOTE]
WOW!!! From its Ottoman-establishment in the 1870's, the autocephaly of the BOC was recognized by the Ecumenical See only in 1945, a good [B]70-80 years after the fact[/B].

Care to explain why Gorki? Care to explain why you even mentioned the church? What's the matter Gorki, Greeks on their own aren't worthy of comparison to Macedonians? Tell me something I don't know, champ.....

EU asks Macedonia to drop emotions in Greek row
 

[url]http://www.canada.com/news/asks+Macedonia+drop+emotions+Greek/1789406/story.html[/url]

[QUOTE]SKOPJE - EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana urged Macedonia Tuesday to cast aside emotions over an 18-year name row with Greece that has frozen the ex-Yugoslav republic's integration into the European bloc.

The name dispute was an "important issue that has to be solved, and I asked everybody to put their emotions aside," Solana told reporters here after meeting with Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski.

Solana called on the Macedonian and Greek governments to seize the opportunity of ongoing negotiations headed by UN special envoy Matthew Nimetz to resolve the issue.

"I think that is a window of opportunity and I am asking the prime minister not (to) let this window of opportunity to go," he said at a joint media conference with Gruevski.

Skopje and Athens have been at loggerheads over the right to the name Macedonia since the ex-Yugoslav republic proclaimed independence in 1991. A northern Greek province has the same name.

Last year Greece used its veto to block an invitation for Skopje to join NATO and insists on solving the name dispute with its northern neighbour before giving the green light to its further integration into the European Union.

Solana said Macedonia could expect "good news in the coming days" about its citizens obtaining visa-free travel to most of the 27-nation bloc's member countries.

Gruevski expressed optimism of being able to fulfill remaining obligations to meet the criteria for the visa-free Schengen zone.

"Macedonia is in the final phase of finishing off the benchmarks," the Macedonian leader said.

The European Union is yet to set a date for membership talks to begin for Macedonia which was made an official EU candidate in December 2005.[/QUOTE]

What is the EU asking of Greece?
Dear Mr Solana, I would be concerned if Macedonia dropped its emotions in any way whatsoever. Especially when it comes to matters of identity.

Ironic especially coming from a person who originates from a 'country' (Spain) whose national identity is as fake as modern Greece. Like modern Greece, the modern Spanish nation was created via the persecution and assimilation of its minority populations.

Instead of trying to solve the 'name dispute' between Macedonia and Greece, maybe he should try to solve the problems in his own country between the Basques, Catalonians, Galicians, Andalusians, Castillians and the numerous other ethnic minorities that constitute the 'Spanish' nation of today

Let him re-christen himself to Northern Solana, then talk about emotions.

Emotions has everything to do with it, we are defending our identity against an immoral attack, how can this idiot possibly expect the Macedonian people not to feel emotion about their Macedonian identity?

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;19575]Let him re-christen himself to Northern Solana, then talk about emotions.[/QUOTE]
Ha ha.
That really is it in a nutshell.

And if he said he was fine about that, then it says more about him than he may care to admit.

But this really is the most obvious indication that the EU bats for its own and that justice has nothing to do with it.

[url]http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n187534[/url]
[QUOTE]Skopje. [B]Negotiations on the name dispute between Macedonia and Greece are not EU responsibility[/B] but are important for the European Union as a whole. This is what the EU High Representative on Common Foreign and Security Policy Javier Solana said today after meeting with Macedonian Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski, Macedonian online edition Forum reported.
"The question of differences about the name is important and must be solved by willingness on both sides," Solana claimed. "As you know, the person responsible for this process within the UN was in the region with ideas and observations. This is an open window of opportunity and as I told the Prime Minister it should not be allowed this window to be closed’, Solana said.[/QUOTE]

Why exactly is it important to change aspects in relation to the sovereignty of a nation?

[QUOTE=Giorikas;19469]I don't remember calling you personally a Nazi. Please provide the link. I called others Nazi in reaction to calling me racist. That's way over the top.
Secondly, I don't see the connection to what I said in that last message. I repeat, if there are some 300 PHD's or so that support the Greek side in a letter, surely you can do the same with PHD's that support your side.
Thirdly, the reason why I mentioned these PHD's is not to show you that I'm right because they say so. Theoretically they can all be wrong of course. It's to show you that I'm not the olnly one who finds it difficult to believe that you remained pure of blood, unmixed with anyone (especially with God forbid Turks or Bulgarians), and direct descendants of Ancient Macedonians.
There are PHD's that say the same thing as I. There are even politicians in ROM who said the same thing. So how can I be isolated ?[/QUOTE]

Post #12, I believe it was.

I’m not a Macedonian. I’m an American.

If it wasn’t for this site and others, many people around the world would remain unaware of the atrocities that the Republic of Hellas has been committing against Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians for almost a century, because of the political and economic complexities involved. The Republic of Hellas is a Western European tourist trap. There are investments to be protected and illusions that need to be preserved, just like Disneyland. There is an economic element that influences both the political, social and academic aspects, as far as, the ethnocide is concerned.

Regarding Miller’s 300, you have presented a political construct designed to reverse a political decision based on international law using an archaic intellectual model that continues to contradict contemporary anthropological evidence and the Renaissance Period Model of historical interpretation. No matter how many scholars have been prompted to sign this letter, numerous aspects of their research and the beliefs presented in the text of this document have been invalidated simply because population geneticists have demonstrated over the last decade that it would be a scientific impossibility for most ethnic Macedonians, no matter which one of the partitioned regions or the Republic they continue to live in, to be the descendents of populations who were assumed to have poured in to the area out of Eastern Europe during the 6th Century AD by researchers living in the 19th Century. Go ask one of your political parrots what he thinks of the similarities between oditsi and odyssey in light of this evidence. It’s self-evident to anyone familiar with 21st Century anthropological developments.

It’s pretty clear that you’re confusing a valid legal matter with a political debate and the facades that typically go along with such pointless rounds of posturing.

Here’s what the “Name Issue” represents in relation to the legal reality:

Does a sovereign, democratic nation have the right to use an ethnic term that has been in use for (not just by) the people who live and have lived in this geographic region since before Europe’s Ancient Period to represent itself internationally and politically?

As you can see, the actions of the Republic of Hellas are infringing upon every single human being’s right to continue to refer to Macedonians as Macedonians, as well.



19th Century researchers and your own ancestors clearly demonstrated that, while you may very well be Grecophonic, you are not Greek. It’s time to throw the toga away Donald.

If the only criteria for entry to the E.U was the good treatment of minorities, Macedonia would be in.

Notice how Greece continues to blatantly violate human rights, but it is Macedonia that is being pressured, by the E.U.

What this demonstrates is that the E.U is not concerned about human rights violations. Sure, there is provision for it in its charter, but in the world of real politics, this means nothing.

The other problem for Macedonia is this. Greece is exporting its policies on minorities - it has taken this "system" of denial, of assimilation and elimination 'over the border'.

The Macedonians were never the problem. The issue is a problem internal to Greece. The decision to talk to the Greeks about their problem, made it Macedonia's problem, and everyone elses. The point I am making is that - the Macedonians have created this problem for themselves.

The rants and raves of Greece - the political damage Greece could do was at its limits. What is so great about E.U and NATO membership anyway? There is nothing "membership" can give us that we can't have from them anyway. It will just take time.

Have you seen Nimtez latest proposal. It is devilish, and deceptive. I can't believe they are considering this rubbish.

[B]We have always been taught at University that the Name of the State is the highest expression of its nationality, and the only legal and legitimate expression of a nationality, in the family of nations around the world.[/B]

Look at this cunning Nimetz breakdown.

Name of State: Republic of North Macedonia (divorces the Macedonians from their State - i.e., the State is no longer the expression of the Macedonian nationality. Therefore, there is no Macedonian nationality).
Language: Macedonian
Nationality/Identity: Macedonian

The name of our State, can only be an expression of our Macedonian nationality - or there is no nationality, in the world of nations.

What Nimetz proposes is very evil. I can't believe they are considering this garbage.

Have you seen Nimtez latest proposal. It is devilish, and deceptive. I can't believe they are considering this rubbish.

[B]We have always been taught at University that the Name of the State is the highest expression of its nationality, and the only legal and legitimate expression of a nationality, in the family of nations around the world.[/B]

Look at this cunning Nimetz breakdown.

Name of State: Republic of North Macedonia (divorces the Macedonians from their State - i.e., the State is no longer the expression of the Macedonian nationality. Therefore, there is no Macedonian nationality).
Language: Macedonian
Nationality/Identity: Macedonian

[B]What Nimetz proposes is very evil. I can't believe they are considering this garbage.[/B] I am despairing at where all of this is going. If they are considering these kinds of breakdowns, seriously, we are in bigger trouble than I thought.

Pelister, not language/identity: Macedonian, but written in Macedonian in all international forums.

[QUOTE]Република Северна Македонија за името на државата и две варијанти за јазикот и нацијата - „makedonski“ (како што е во [B]нашиот јазик[/B], но [B]напишано на латиница[/B])......[/QUOTE]

So, an international meeting takes place between America, France, Greece and Macedonia, for example.

[B]American
French
Greek
Makedonski[/B]


-------------
As I said before, the most idiotic proposal to date. Nimetz needs to eat another kebabovlaki and re-assess.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;19586]Pelister, not language/identity: Macedonian, but written in Macedonian in all international forums.



So, an international meeting takes place between America, France, Greece and Macedonia, for example.

[B]American
French
Greek
Makedonski[/B]


-------------
As I said before, the most idiotic proposal to date. Nimetz needs to eat another kebabovlaki and re-assess.[/QUOTE]

Its evil.

As I said the name of our State is the highest political expression of our nationality.

The State needs to be an expression of the people. That is what makes it a Nation, AND gives us a Macedonian Nationality.

[U]If the Nation State is NOT a political expression of the Macedonian historical ethno-cultural group - there is no Macedonian Nationality. There is recognition and acknowledgement of a Macedonian language, a Macedonian culture, [B]but no formal recognition of a Macedonian Nationality.[/B] That is the difference.[/U]


The Nimetz proposal is a ruse, a trick to decieve the Macedonian government. This is deception at its finest. Will they take the bait?

It means that Macedonia is a geographical entity, open to the possibility that it is populated by Greek and Bulgarian Nationals, but no Macedonian nationals.

I can't believe the idiots in the Macedonian government are considering this rubbish.

They must wake up, we need to stop negotiating ASAP, otherwise this will get very ugly, there are elements within Macedonia that are prepared to take action against the government if they change the name in any way or form.
Do not wake the bear that sleeps, look at what happened to the Bulgarian Prime Minister in 1895 and to the Serbian King Alexander I of Yugoslavia in 1934.
And numerous others.

Do not go down this path.

[QUOTE="Daskale"]...look at what happened to the Bulgarian Prime Minister in 1895 and to the Serbian King Alexander I of Yugoslavia in 1934.
And numerous others.[/QUOTE]
Numerous others, many of them traitors.....

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;19605]Numerous others, many of them traitors.....[/QUOTE]


Macedonians have fought for their name and right in history, to change that now will most likely result in bloodshed.
:death:

Here is a letter I got from A.Mitreski. I am posting it here because I believe above all else in transparency and accountability - without accountability there is no participation.

[quote]

I think you are frustrated with this process just as I am and every Macedonian in the world is. And somehow you are pissed at UMD. UMD is not the reason why we are in this position. I fully agree with you that these negotiations undermine the sovereignty of Macedonia and its citizens. Read up the write up on the panel in yale where I asked Nimitz what international law gives the right to Greece to dictate the name of a sovereign country. He said that there is no such law, but Macedonia, [B]if it wants to enter certain international organizations then it is bound to negotiate over the name. [SIZE="5"]He is right[/SIZE].[/B] We can say fuck off and stop negotiations, but what would happen next nobody knows.

The position of Macedonia in the international community is very week since Bukuresht. Too much nationalism and the ancient rhetoric from Macedonia have damaged our reputation although we were the losers last April. Which tells you that politics is a very sophisticated game that Greece plays to perfection. So we need to be very careful going forward.

We have talked in private to Macedonian officials that we need to end these negotiations. We will continue to do so. [/quote]

U.M.D is a traitorous organization, and very two faced at that.

[B]Here is the OFFICIAL U.M.D position:

1. Membership to the E.U and NATO should by [I]the[/I] HIGHEST PRIORITY.
2. NEGOTIATING our Macedonian Nationality, is [B]NECESSARY[/B] for gaining membership.[/B]

Compare and contrast this UMD policy to its above statement of 'no name change'.

They are slippery, but its all there in black and white.

I don't trust them.

Eh? I'm not sure I see how you add 2 and 2 to equal 5?

The fact is, in order to join the EU and NATO, in the current climate, requires us to negotiate and potentially change our name. That's the fact. We all disagree with that and know it is wrong and unjust, but it still remains the fact. It is unfortunately true that to join EU/NATO, we currently must negotiate our name and identity.

So the question is should we want to join these organisations, in the current climate, given the above requirement? Should we negotiate? The answer is an absolute NO. From UMD, from everyone involved in UMD, from the grassroots members to the Board and in fact to the wider and entire Macedonian diaspora.

I can tell you that inside UMD the discussions are on how to find a way to change things (the current political climate on the international scene) so that negotiations and a name change is not required of us (i.e. effect of Lisbon treaty for EU, reforms in NATO, etc). That's the UMD current strategy and approach.

If that is not possible and we have exhausted our efforts (and we have to try), the plan B is to work on analysis for coming up and presenting the Government with an alternate strategy for Macedonia (i.e. non-aligned nations, BRIC, and other trade and economic avenues via preferential trade agreements, etc). We have already discussed this intensively.

In an ideal world, Macedonia should join EU/NATO based on its merit and these organisations should not require anything more of us. Unfortunately that's not going to happen at the moment, these organisations are allowing the anti-Macedonian policies from Greece and not only condoning them, but enforcing them. If we can't find a way to make that happen (i.e. the only requirements to be the reforms needed, nothing to do with our name and identity) then we need to seek alternative directions for Macedonia's future.

UMD is against these negotiations.

You are not the one who can state UMD's official position, only UMD can state it's official position, as it has many times, and it's official position is opposite to what you have written.

Though I have to say I disagree with his statement about too much nationalism and ancient rhetoric coming from Macedonia. I completely support what the Government is doing in this field, and saying it is 'too much nationalism and ancient rhetoric' is a completely innaccurate depiction of what is happening in Macedonia. As I said in a private email to fellow UMD Board Members, it is only the "Alexander the Great" statue and highway, etc which is getting media attention because it happens to be a forced contentious issue, yet nobody is raising the same alarms about the statues of other Macedonian historical figures, though those statues are far more numerous (i.e. 15:1) and by accepting this 'nationalist rhetoric' argument, we are fighting on Greek terms, not on our own. We are only trying to 'catch up' for all the lost time and there is nothing wrong with what Macedonia is doing at the moment, with its focus on Macedonian heroes.

I also disagree with the notion that Greeks are playing anything to perfection. I think it is us who are pandering more and more and losing ground. We are not following Sun Tzu's suggestion that one should aim higher, in order to reach the real goal (i.e. a bowman aims his arrow higher than his target in order to reach it)