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-   -   Origins of Albanian language and ethnos (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012)

Soldier of Macedon 01-13-2011 09:41 PM

Indeed, it does seem that the Turkic languages are found in several places across Asia. Very interesting, thanks Onur.

Onur 01-13-2011 09:53 PM

[QUOTE=Makedonetz;86002]thats interesting blue eyes and fair skin tone.[/QUOTE]

Nah, blue eye is rare among Turks but green and hazel is quite common for some reason. I think i heard that green eye is most common in 1-2 Balkan countries and Turkey in the world.

Iranian guy probably meant that they are whiter than the Iranians around there. Well, it`s obvious that Turks looks whiter than Iranians.

Napoleon 01-13-2011 10:15 PM

I think the important thing about this hat issue is that its used by Albanian propagandists as an example of 'continuity' between the ancient Illyrians and todays modern Albanians. If anything, it indicates the complete opposite.

[QUOTE]Napoleon, your avatar is so cool. Siamese with a fez - [B]Onur [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks...I saw the photo and I just couldn't resist it, it had to by my new avatar. BTW Onur, have you travelled much around Turkey? Its one place I've got on my most wanted to do list, especially the eastern part etc. Have you been to Nemrut Dagh, the place seems fascinating.

Makedonetz 01-13-2011 10:18 PM

Onur i must say turkish women are georgeous! i dated one in highschool and her eyes were mesmerizing and with the way she moved her hips dancing wow! :37::lol:

Must be the ocean i hear you guys have some nice waters the women must get those green eyes from drinking the water :)

Onur 01-14-2011 05:58 PM

[QUOTE=Napoleon;86011]I think the important thing about this hat issue is that its used by Albanian propagandists as an example of 'continuity' between the ancient Illyrians and todays modern Albanians. If anything, it indicates the complete opposite.[/QUOTE]

I am really sick of this antiquity madness. Ofc Greeks are champions on that but Albanians are not far behind.




[QUOTE]BTW Onur, have you travelled much around Turkey? Its one place I've got on my most wanted to do list, especially the eastern part etc. Have you been to Nemrut Dagh, the place seems fascinating.[/QUOTE]

I know Aegean, mediterranean and central Anatolia but I`ve never been to eastern part. Turkey got lots of fascinating places and it really takes time and effort to see them all. Nemrut daghi is one of them. I`d really like to see it too and ofc i`ll go there sooner or later.

People says that the top of Nemrut mountain has the best sunset view in the world and it`s really a mysterious experience with all that megalith statues all around you. Nemrut is yet another example of cultural exchange and mutual respect between east and west. There are statues of both ancient Greek, Armenian and Persian gods of pre-christianity era. After Armenians became christians, they smashed some of them and broke their heads, probably in 3rd century AD or something. Statues are laying around and stays damaged on top of the mountain atm.

Soldier of Macedon 01-15-2011 04:48 AM

[QUOTE="Napoleon"]Wikipedia and other dubious sources even go as far as stating the the Qeleshe originates from the ancient Illyrians.[/QUOTE]
Some archaeological finds do show that the Illyrians wore head caps, and because of this John Wilkes does suggest a connection to the Albanian skull-cap. However, he also suggests a connection to another Illyrian cap made of conical fur or leather that resembled those worn by Macedonian, Bulgarian, Serbian, etc peasants and shepherds. The Serbs (and Wilkes) call it a šubara. I would say, based on the assertion that the Albanians are not in fact descended from the Illyrians in any significant degree, that it is more probable they brought the skull-cap with them to the Balkans.

Epirot 01-15-2011 06:11 AM

[QUOTE]But...somebody forgot to tell all these propagandists that the Qeleshe is also a traditional hat of the various peoples of the Caucaus mountain region.[/QUOTE]

I highly doubt that traditional skull cap of Albanians is similar with traditional cap of Caucasus (Albania, Armenia or Georgia). Your image shows a black cap that has nothing in common with Albanian one except the form. Btw, we do not know how it is produced...from what materials?

[QUOTE]Above is an example of a 'Qeleshe', also referred as being a 'traditional' Albanian hat. Wikipedia and other dubious sources even go as far as stating the the Qeleshe originates from the ancient Illyrians. [/QUOTE]

I don't think that many sources that point out the resemblances between Illyrian and Albanian cap are dubious. Many archeological excavations have provided that Southern Illyrians wore a cap that is identical with Albanian one.

Epirot 01-15-2011 06:18 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;85978]The word 'qeleshe' in Albanian is pronounced 'cheleshe' - very similar to the Macedonian (and Slavic) word for 'forehead', which is 'chelo'. The Albanian word for 'forehead' is 'balle'. Makes you wonder, doesn't it......[/QUOTE]

I would say that even in Albanian [B][I]'qele'[/I][/B] or [B][I]'Áele'[/I][/B] means [B]'forehead'.[/B] It's very likely that [B]'Qeleshe' [/B]consists of two words: [B]'qele' [/B](='forehead') + [B]'lesh'[/B] (='wool') perhaps an implicit reference to the material of this skull cap.

Soldier of Macedon 01-15-2011 06:28 AM

Epirot, it's a loanword from Macedonian or Serbian, you already have a word for a 'forehead' which is 'balle'.
[QUOTE="Epirot"]Many archeological excavations have provided that Southern Illyrians wore a cap that is identical with Albanian one.[/QUOTE]
John Wilkes states the following on page 229:
[QUOTE]Among a variety of close-fitting caps the familiar Balkan skull-cap (Albanian qeleshe) appears on a relief in Zenica.[/QUOTE]
Zenica is in Bosnia, not quite in the south of Illyria. Would you care to show us these identical examples?

Epirot 01-15-2011 01:57 PM

[QUOTE]Epirot, it's a loanword from Macedonian or Serbian, you already have a word for a 'forehead' which is 'balle'.[/QUOTE]

Not sure if this word is a loanword from Macedonian since we haven't enough evidences in which language is attested this word firstly.

I checked up in my dictionary for the exact meanings of 'Qeleshe' and it wrote that 'Qel' is not limited to denote only 'forehead' but even the upper part of head. For example, 'Qel' in Albanian means also 'bald-headed' which corresponds roughly with the part of head covered by 'Plis'.

[QUOTE]John Wilkes states the following on page 229:

Zenica is in Bosnia, not quite in the south of Illyria. Would you care to show us these identical examples?[/QUOTE]

Actually I cannot bring any direct image of Illyrian hat discovered on archeological places of Illyrians because I have not the book of Alexander Stipcevic (I gave it to a mate of mine). But as far as I know, Illyrian cap did not differ much from Roman ones.

[IMG]http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/brutus_pileus2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://zemrashqiptare.net/images/articles/2008_03/2655/u2_1.jpg[/IMG]

While I was searching for the origin of Albanian cap, I found also this one that may bring some more light on the question:

[QUOTE]Latins called it ; 'Pileus Libertatis', or 'Cap of Liberty (Freedom)'. It was a symbol of freedom for the Romans (1). It is depicted on a coin of Brutus, struck in Macedonia, after the assasination of Julius Cesar (2), as well as on a number of other Roman coins struck under various Imperators, to name Caligula (3). In eighteenth century 'Plisi i Lirise' was also used as an American national symbol of freedom, and depicted on a number of American coins, too (4).
[B][COLOR="Blue"]However, considering that Etruscans were not a Latin people, the origin of the cap must be sought elsewhere. It must be noted that 'Pileus Libertatis' is also known by the name 'Phrygian Cap'[/COLOR] (5).[/B] Phrygia was an ancient kingdom situated in what is today Western Turkey, with the ancient Troy being a city of Phrygia. Likewise the majority of historians believe that Etruscans too originated in Western Turkey, and were often called by ancient historians Pelasgian !!!!!
Today, 'Pileus Liberatis' or 'Phrygian Cap' survives in the culture of the Albanians, still being worn by these people, as a national cap.



Ref:

1.[url]http://www.lyberty.com/dict/Libertas.htm[/url]

2.[url]http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_...us_pileus2.jpg[/url]

3.[url]http://www.waycoolcoins.com/letterc/caligquad.jpg[/url]

4.[url]http://www.usmint.gov/historianscorn...lf1935_obv.jpg[/url]
([url]http://www.exonumia.com/tenup/ten0018a.jpg[/url]

5.[url]http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Phrygian+cap[/url][/QUOTE]

Soldier of Macedon 01-16-2011 06:57 AM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]Not sure if this word is a loanword from Macedonian since we haven't enough evidences in which language is attested this word firstly.

I checked up in my dictionary for the exact meanings of 'Qeleshe' and it wrote that 'Qel' is not limited to denote only 'forehead' but even the upper part of head. For example, 'Qel' in Albanian means also 'bald-headed' which corresponds roughly with the part of head covered by 'Plis'.[/QUOTE]
See below for 'bald, bare':

[url]http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/PokornyMaster.html[/url]

(PIE) keleuo - (Maced.) kelav/kjelav - (Croat.) chelav

The word 'chelo' may perhaps come from this word as the forehead is bare. But, as it is present in all Slavic languages, and as Albanian already has a word for 'forehead' (balle), it cannot be a loan into Slavic languages.
[QUOTE]Actually I cannot bring any direct image of Illyrian hat discovered on archeological places of Illyrians because I have not the book of Alexander Stipcevic (I gave it to a mate of mine). But as far as I know, Illyrian cap did not differ much from Roman ones.[/QUOTE]
I will have to clarify a point I made earlier when you stated that many 'southern Illyrians' are depicted wearing the skull-cap. Although Zenica is hardly in the 'south' of Illyria, the archaeological remains from that area are included in the 'southern Illyrian group' by John Wilkes - in case that is what you were making reference to with 'southern Illyrians'.
[QUOTE]While I was searching for the origin of Albanian cap, I found also this one that may bring some more light on the question[/QUOTE]
Worthy of further discussion.

Epirot 01-16-2011 09:51 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;86278]S. Although Zenica is hardly in the 'south' of Illyria, the archaeological remains from that area are included in the 'southern Illyrian group' by John Wilkes - in case that is what you were making reference to with 'southern Illyrians'.
[/QUOTE]

If I am not mistaken, in Dyrrachium (modern Albanian city of DurrŽs) during archeological excavations were brought in light some reliefs showing an Illyrian man that wore a cap, which does not differ much from Albanian one (judging from its form). I'll try to find it if I can and to post here!

Ottoman 02-12-2011 12:04 PM

[QUOTE=Onur;74928]I only have the part where it relates Albania as PDF file but it`s in Turkish.
[/QUOTE]

You and me can translate it in English, you got a link?

Voltron 02-12-2011 03:37 PM

Do we have any words from Caucasian Albania that suggests that Albanians may have been descended from there ?

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Ancient_countries_of_Transcaucasia.jpg[/IMG]

George S. 02-12-2011 07:15 PM

If you do a search that's one of the theories that say that the modern albanians are not descended from the illyrians but from albania in asia in the sixth or seventh century.

Onur 02-13-2011 07:37 AM

We don't know anything for sure but these "coincidences" raising some questions.

[QUOTE=Onur;67387]
There is a computer program which analyzes the 138 different typological characters and a vocabulary of languages. It finds the similarities of the different languages and draws a table according to the results.

The result diagram shows Albanian language between Romanian and modern Greek in terms of grammar features but as for vocabulary, it puts Albanian between Persian(which has a lot of common words with Arabic today) and eastern Armenian/modern Greek;
[/QUOTE]


Check where was historical Albania in Caucasus and see who were their neighbors. Iranians and Armenians. And see which languages are most closest to Albanian language in my post above. Persian and eastern Armenian.

We also know that muslim Arabs invaded Caucasus Albania in 8th century and check what Evliya Celebi said about Albanians; Some tribes with muslim Arab leaders among them, migrated in to the Balkans and mixed with Frankish people(Latin languages, peoples) in there and thats how today`s Albanians born. That was what Albanians said to Evliya Celebi in 17th century.

Pelister 02-13-2011 09:22 PM

[QUOTE=Onur;88964]We don't know anything for sure but these "coincidences" raising some questions.




Check where was historical Albania in Caucasus and see who were their neighbors. Iranians and Armenians. And see which languages are most closest to Albanian language in my post above. Persian and eastern Armenian.

We also know that muslim Arabs invaded Caucasus Albania in 8th century and check what Evliya Celebi said about Albanians; Some tribes with muslim Arab leaders among them, migrated in to the Balkans and mixed with Frankish people(Latin languages, peoples) in there and thats how today`s Albanians born. That was what Albanians said to Evliya Celebi in 17th century.[/QUOTE]

It explains the heavy Latin element in the Albanian language but it is the Arabic words that are the most interesting.

Sovius 02-13-2011 11:04 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88921]Do we have any words from Caucasian Albania that suggests that Albanians may have been descended from there ?

[/QUOTE]



[B]identical place-names between Albania and Caucasus:[/B]

Albo-Arnauti -Caucasus- Arnauti
Albo-Bushati - Caucasus-Bushati (also the name of an Albanian tribe)
Albo-Baboti - Caucasus-Baboti
Albo-Baka -Caucasus-Bako
Albo-Ballagati - Caucasus-Balagati
Albo-Ballaj,Balli - Caucasus- Bali
Albo-Bashkimi - Caucasus-Bashkoi
Albo-Bathore- Caucasus- Batharia
Albo-Bater- Caucasus- Bataris
Albo-Geg - Caucasus-Gegi, Gegeni, Geguti (Term used by Albanians in their language to denote their brethre north of the Shkumbi R.)
Albo-Demir Kapia - Caucasus-Demir Kapia (Turkish term: "iron gates"; term by which Turks refered to the Caspian Sea or arch: Albanian Sea)
Albo-Kish, Kisha... - Caucasus-Kish (Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish")
Albo-Kurata,Kuratem,Kurateni(villages)-Caucasus-Kura (river) (Nine different toponyms in Albania begin with "Kura")
Albo-Luginasi - Caucasus-Lugini
Albo-Rusani - Caucasus-Rusian
Albo-Sheshani, Shoshani, Shashani - Caucasus-Shashani
Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi - Caucasus-Sheshleti
Albo-Skalla - Caucasus-Skaleri
Albo-Shiptari Shipyaki, Shkhepa, - Caucasus-Shkepi
Albo-Shkoder - Caucasus-Shkeder, Shked, Shkoda
Albo-Shekulli - Caucasus-Shekouli
Albo-Skuraj - Caucasus-Skuria


[B]of interest, as well:[/B]
-Gogo is a very common male name in Georgia and Albania
-Keko in Georgia female and male name in Albania.
-Shqiptars:mother=Nona, and in Georgia is female name.
-Gruzians: mother=deda ;Shqiptars Deda= male name.

[B]Source and additional observations and evidence:[/B]
[url]http://my.opera.com/macedonianneighbourhood/blog/show.dml/4235614[/url]

As a complex amalgamation of a number of very different languages, it may be more conducive for linguistic researchers and people researching the history of what came to be referred to as Albania to view this language as a creole language. Simply having Indo-European characteristics doesn't make it Indo-European in my opinion.

Voltron 02-14-2011 04:58 AM

Nice Post Sovius, Do you know if the Caucausian theory is being accepted lately ? I mean the wording connection seems more than coiincidence. What about toponyms in Albania ?

Il also try to read up on them, Albania is really is a unique case in the balkans. Their uniqueness is the reasons Albanians give regarding their Illyrian heritage, but Im not so sure anymore. Il see if I can find Byzantine records of them.

Ottoman 02-14-2011 05:09 AM

Im having discussions with Albanians on Facebook and they all think Alexander was Albanian and he is their father, when I dropped the name Evliya Celebi they didnt know who that was, how strange, since Evliya Celebi is a world known person.

Maybe they dont want to know him. :)

Voltron 02-14-2011 05:24 AM

Just tell them to be happy with Kastriotis and stop while they are ahead.

Ottoman 02-14-2011 07:22 AM

Lol I know how the Albanian mind works bro, they wont give up claiming Alexander.

George S. 02-14-2011 07:47 AM

Just tell them they are connected to the illyrian race.Also tell them macedonia & greece belongs to them

Daskalot 02-14-2011 07:51 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;89088]Just tell them to be happy with Kastriotis and stop while they are ahead.[/QUOTE]

Why have you added '-IS' to the end of Skenderbeg's name?

Voltron 02-14-2011 07:55 AM

Thats just how we Greeks call him Daskalot. I wont claim that he is Greek. Even in Wiki they have him listed as an Albanian. He is worthy of a thread in itself.

Daskalot 02-14-2011 07:59 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;89127]Thats just how we Greeks call him Daskalot. I wont claim that he is Greek. Even in Wiki they have him listed as an Albanian. He is worthy of a thread in itself.[/QUOTE]

I know you Greeks call him like that, so why are you Hellenizing his and others names? Will this make future Greeks claim him as theirs based on the Greek sounding name?

Voltron 02-14-2011 08:02 AM

Not necessarily Daskalot. I think its quite normal to use your native tongue when referring to others.

Daskalot 02-14-2011 08:07 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;89129]Not necessarily Daskalot. I think its quite normal to use your native tongue when referring to others.[/QUOTE]

I find Greeks doing this a lot. Just to give you an example from more modern times, Kottas. Most Greeks considers him as Greek, why?

Voltron 02-14-2011 08:10 AM

Its a form of respect. Anybody that sheds blood for us [U]is[/U] one of us. We dont go into details.

Daskalot 02-14-2011 09:19 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;89131]Its a form of respect. Anybody that sheds blood for us [U]is[/U] one of us. We dont go into details.[/QUOTE]

So anyone can become a Greek like yourself and thus have an equal right as you yourself to claim Ancient Hellenic history as his/hers?

Voltron 02-14-2011 09:37 AM

It depends on what context your asking Daskalot. If its an attempt to water down the Greek Ethnos than the answer is No, Its not just anybody. Only to individuals that have fully embodied themselves to the Hellenic traditions, and culture. Of course it would be harder for a Chinaman, Pigmy or Eskimo to meet the requirements. But for individuals from the balkans it would be a small difference. Thats my take on it.

Daskalot 02-14-2011 10:30 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;89142]It depends on what context your asking Daskalot. If its an attempt to water down the Greek Ethnos than the answer is No, Its not just anybody. Only to individuals that have fully embodied themselves to the Hellenic traditions, and culture. Of course it would be harder for a Chinaman, Pigmy or Eskimo to meet the requirements. But for individuals from the balkans it would be a small difference. Thats my take on it.[/QUOTE]

So in essence to be a Greek is no different to be an American.
Can we agree on this?

Sovius 02-14-2011 11:40 AM

The Polish are starting to do this too, Hitlerowicz, Staliniewski. I foresee complications.
:001_smile:

[QUOTE=Voltron;89085]Nice Post Sovius, Do you know if the Caucausian theory is being accepted lately ? I mean the wording connection seems more than coiincidence. What about toponyms in Albania ?

Il also try to read up on them, Albania is really is a unique case in the balkans. Their uniqueness is the reasons Albanians give regarding their Illyrian heritage, but Im not so sure anymore. Il see if I can find Byzantine records of them.[/QUOTE]

John Wilkes has made some progress in the area of unraveling the revisionism that has weighed down authentic scholarship concerning the Modern Albanians through his research concerning the Ancient Illyrians, but I donít believe he has ever put forward a formal thesis. Bratot posted some excellent documentation concerning the subject a while back that you would probably be interested in. I canít seem to locate it at the moment, but it was extremely informative. A little perseverance and the right keyword should get you what youíre looking for.

Itís evident that many different populations merged together in different ways over time to form what would come to be considered Albanian. Albania doesnít have a history as much as it has a set of histories that are now intertwined due to the formation of the modern nation states. Oversimplification has plagued research in this area by anachronistically ascribing a singularity where there clearly never was one. A certain percentage of Albanians are indigenous as evidenced by their genetic similarity to many Croatians and Macedonians and a certain percentage came from other areas of the world.

Ottoman 02-14-2011 12:00 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;89127]Thats just how we Greeks call him Daskalot. I wont claim that he is Greek. Even in Wiki they have him listed as an Albanian. He is worthy of a thread in itself.[/QUOTE]

There is a lot of propaganda on wikipedia, cannot take it serious anymore, just like wiki answers.

Im not saying all articles or answers are bad but there is a lot of bullshit there.

Voltron 02-14-2011 12:12 PM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;89147]So in essence to be a Greek is no different to be an American.
Can we agree on this?[/QUOTE]

No, unfortuantly we cant agree. America celebrates their diversities. May 5 for Mexicans. February for Blacks. Pulaski Day for the Polish. March 25th for Greeks, ect, ect. Greece does not have that concept because Greeks and whoever self declares themselves as Greeks have the same traditions or culture ( homogenos ).

I mentioned [B]individuals[/B] as an example. In another thread regarding Arvanties, I listed them as a group that had fully [B]assimilated[/B] to the Greek ethnos. I provided a definition for assimilation and I dont think I got an answer. Same goes for Vlachs although for the latter I said that it is completely plausible that certain groups of Vlachs are in fact Latinised Greeks.[U] In all of the above cases that does not mean there are no Greeks.[/U] I use the exception TO the rule where some use the exception AS the rule which is wrong. Anyway, I dont want to bog down this thread with this all over again.

Voltron 02-14-2011 12:14 PM

[QUOTE=Sovius;89156]The Polish are starting to do this too, Hitlerowicz, Staliniewski. I foresee complications.
:001_smile:



John Wilkes has made some progress in the area of unraveling the revisionism that has weighed down authentic scholarship concerning the Modern Albanians through his research concerning the Ancient Illyrians, but I donít believe he has ever put forward a formal thesis. Bratot posted some excellent documentation concerning the subject a while back that you would probably be interested in. I canít seem to locate it at the moment, but it was extremely informative. A little perseverance and the right keyword should get you what youíre looking for.

Itís evident that many different populations merged together in different ways over time to form what would come to be considered Albanian. Albania doesnít have a history as much as it has a set of histories that are now intertwined due to the formation of the modern nation states. Oversimplification has plagued research in this area by anachronistically ascribing a singularity where there clearly never was one. A certain percentage of Albanians are indigenous as evidenced by their genetic similarity to many Croatians and Macedonians and a certain percentage came from other areas of the world.[/QUOTE]

Heard of Wikes often but never had a chance to read his material. Il do a search for Bratots info as well. Thanks

Voltron 02-14-2011 12:15 PM

[QUOTE=Ottoman;89158]There is a lot of propaganda on wikipedia, cannot take it serious anymore, just like wiki answers.

Im not saying all articles or answers are bad but there is a lot of bullshit there.[/QUOTE]

Its not that bad. Its more or less accurate.

Ottoman 02-14-2011 04:12 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;89161]Its not that bad. Its more or less accurate.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but still mate, there is a lot of shit there, I dont use wikipedia as a source when looking up things.

Soldier of Macedon 02-14-2011 06:06 PM

[QUOTE=Sovius;89046]As a complex amalgamation of a number of very different languages, it may be more conducive for linguistic researchers and people researching the history of what came to be referred to as Albania to view this language as a creole language. Simply having Indo-European characteristics doesn't make it Indo-European in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Both Greek and Albanian are 'creole' languages of some sort, as they both developed from a hybrid of unrelated languages. The Slavic languages, on the other hand, differ somewhat, as they are a hybrid of related languages. The Paleo-Balkan and Baltic tongues were merely homogenised by the related Common Slavic - which itself was a lingua franca based on the Scythian or Danubian Slavic languages, located centrally between the Baltic north and Balkan south.

Sovius 02-15-2011 01:20 AM

This evolutionary path would explain a number of things. Many words that fall under the Western Slavic language classification are simply contracted variations of what are generally considered Baltic (Aestian/Asian?) words. Contractions indicate that the pace of life in this vast area quickened. Roads and urbanization provide an archeologically verifiable explanation for this phenomenon, as well as, the means through which such changes occurred.

The Klyosovian Interpretative Model, as it pertains to the expansion of R1a1 populations throughout Eurasia and Western Europe in relation to basic geo-linguistic rules of thumb, suggests that the language or set of languages spoken by people north of the Danube had to be more similar to what is commonly regarded as Indo-Iranic, by virtue of the fact that many people from Central and Eastern Europe (and I do mean many) are the direct biological descendents of the same populations who eventually migrated into Northern India. People from Central and Eastern Europe no longer use many of the words preserved in Avestian (Aestian?) and Ancient Indian texts. This is evidence of innovation at or near the center of a culture or set of similar cultures.


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