[QUOTE=Spirit;177201]Read what this clown Sasko Lazarov has had to say
Here is the link

[url]http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/voices-why-i-travelled-to-macedonia-to-vote-4282786-Oct2018/[/url][/QUOTE]

To be fair, he has a point. I mean he should have the point of a knife shoved in his throat.

Disgusting, especially for an Irish journal to journal to even publish something so opposed to sovereignty.

[QUOTE=vicsinad;177189]Most ethnic Macedonians are clearly against this. But I believe there are enough for it that make the country roughly divided. I would venture to say -- given Macedonia's more likely voter roll list of 1.5 or 1.6 million -- that at least 45% of citizens support the referendum.



If this is the case, then it means DPNE may again have to try to form a coalition with the Albanian block if it wins the next election. Which means DPNE will probably have to give a little on the Tirana Platform.

I'm not so sure that SDS lost enough to be smaller than the combined Albanian vote. And I'm not so sure DPNE gained much more. With the rise of Levica and Edinstvena, I think the next elections may definitely shake things up.[/QUOTE]

I think depending on when elections are held can also play a large factor.

If elections are held in November or December, might be difficult for the Albanian parties organizing their voting buses from Western Europe to make the trek.

If early elections are called and they're either late 2018 or Early 2019, be sure that DUI and the other Albanian parties from Macedonia will be dead set against early elections.

The above factor has been one of the biggest reasons why a census has not occurred. The Albanians have always demanded that they want the census to be roughly around the time (Summer) when their diaspora voters are in the country enjoying their Vikendici. It was for this primary reason a census date could not be reached with DPNE.

[IMG]https://a1on.mk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/protest-sobranie.jpg[/IMG]

Macedonians outside of parliament protesting against the identity change. A forgone conclusion.

If it happens and the people of Macedonia don't revolt, then they got what they wanted or deserved. Simple really.

Here we are many months after this thing began and we still don't know for sure where the people stand on this agreement/issue.

The people I know seem split roughly 50/50 on the matter

Yet of the people I know almost no one actually voted, even those who were openly in support of it

I know quite a few people who claim they are actively trying to work against the implementation of this.

Then you have pictures like the one above and it seems no one cares.

Almost every thing I know thus far is contradictory, and I find it impossible to create any baseline of fact and certainty to work off of.

A lot of people are against this, yet there is no identifiable movement or plan to stop it.

A lot of people are for it yet a lot of them were too ashamed to go and actually vote for it.

We are in a situation where all sides of this are avoiding actively taking responsibility for their positions contributing to a definite outcome.

The reasons I am personally pessimistic about this is because I know quite a bit more of the populace was willing to accept this than actually voted for it. Because they are too ashamed to really stand up and be counted I feel this group is an unpredictable factor that prefers to see this go through in the matter that it is so they can wash their hands of the matter.

You have the political opposition that is clearly playing both sides of this and has been worryingly silent on the matter.

The opposition among the people seems unable or unwilling to take their opposition to the level required to really bring this to an end.

Frankly the only certainty in this whole mess is Zaev. It is an undeniable fact that he is willing to utilize an means necessary to make sure that this happens. That should be the most worrying part. That the only people that have a definite goal are the very people we need to fail.

Knowing Macedonians the way I do, I refuse to draw certain conclusions from the referendum/boycott. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the reason for the low turnout and yet subsequent timidness to actually stop this is a direct result of people kind of wanting this to happen but keep the blood on Zaev's hands for the sake of maintaining some screwed up sense of dignity.

We have seen much bigger reactions for much lesser reasons, how else does one explain the deafening silence in the face of Zaev's unyielding actions?

Something just doesn't sit right with me about the way this is unfolding.

I agree with above, most of the people I talk to are for the name change though didn’t vote, most of the young ones are in the process of leaving or want to leave, they could give a rats ass our history or anything Macedonian. The west opening the flood gates hasn’t helped either, it’s just too easy to leave.

I was speaking with an articulate Romanian client yesterday about their EU membership. Essentially, Romania is still a shithole with zero new infrastructure fed through to important regional areas. No highways linking industrial areas. Nothing changed.

The only benefit is the ability to work in other countries. Which is precisely what is happening right now. The economy exists and hasn't self imploded solely because of it.

IF Macedonia gets in the EU, this is precisely what will happen. But I am sure something will happen with the ability to migrate. Macedonia is known for its "2nd rate undeserving nation" nature. It will be the only country to enter into the EU with rules that don't apply to any other nation. I guarantee it.

Speaking of shitholes in the EU...

[B]Welcome to Bulgaria, the world’s fastest shrinking nation[/B]

[QUOTE]Some 11 years after Bulgaria joined the EU – raising hopes for a swift rise in prosperity, a more robust democracy and broader social justice – data from Eurostat in Brussels now make for bleak reading.

Bulgaria has the lowest average salary in the EU (€575), the lowest minimum wage (€260) and the smallest average pension (€190).

The upshot is that more than 40 per cent of Bulgarians are now at risk of poverty and social exclusion – twice the proportion of Germans who find themselves in the same predicament.

In addition, while on average the top one-fifth of people in EU states earn 5.2 times more than the bottom one-fifth, in Bulgaria the haves make more than eight times more than the have-nots – without accounting for undeclared wealth.

“There are three Bulgarian realities,” says Daniel Kaddik, the Sofia-based director of the Friedrich Naumann Foundation in southeast Europe.

“People with an average salary don’t live a good life here, with prices for food, energy and other things that are comparable with elsewhere in Europe.”
“Then there is a relatively small middle class who have their own bubble, and work in start-ups or international companies, and live in some areas of Sofia that are comparable with parts of Berlin, for example.”

“Then there’s the upper class, which is detached from everything else. They have very fancy cars and private members’ clubs, and there is very often an overlap with shady business.”

“I lived in Berlin and I never saw a Maybach,” he adds. “In Sofia I’ve already seen three.”

The economy is growing at around 3.5 per cent, but the World Bank says it needs to expand “by at least 4 per cent per year over the next 25 years for Bulgaria to catch up with average EU income levels and thus boost shared prosperity”.

Bulgaria leads the EU when it comes to one unpalatable indicator – the prevalence of corruption, and graft is draining the economy, scaring away foreign investors and serving to keep people poor.

The country was the EU’s most corrupt nation in the latest Transparency International index, ranking in 71st place alongside South Africa and Vanuatu.

Just as alarmingly, an EU survey found last year that only one-quarter of Bulgarians would trust the police to deal with a corruption complaint, and police and customs officers are seen as the public servants most likely to take bribes.

The European Parliament estimates that corruption costs Bulgaria about 15 per cent of its gross domestic product (GDP) each year, and graft reaches into every facet of life – from rigged tenders, opaque contracts and kickbacks in multimillion-euro deals to the need for ordinary citizens to pay bribes to smooth their path through the country’s health and education systems and its Byzantine bureaucracy.

All these backhanders, big and small, feed a grey economy in Bulgaria that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) found last year was equivalent to 29.6 per cent of its GDP, the largest such share in the EU.

The result is a debilitating cycle of tax evasion and capital flight, depleted revenues for the government, sub-standard services for the public, and a grinding sense of injustice, grievance and mistrust towards officials and state institutions.

An EU survey last year found that when it came to achieving success in life, more than twice as many Bulgarians believe that “knowing the right people” is a bigger factor than having a good education.

This feeling that the game is rigged in favour of those with connections, and that poverty is permanent, is writ large in Bulgarian demographics - young people are leaving, couples are having fewer children and the population is falling fast.

The UN says Bulgaria is actually the world’s fastest shrinking nation, with its current population of about 7 million people expected to dwindle to 5.4 million by 2050 and 3.9 million by the end of the century.

Bulgaria has already lost almost 2 million people from a peak of nearly 9 million in 1989, revealing the massive and long-term impact of the transition from communism to capitalism on eastern Europe - where eight other countries are also expected to suffer a population decline of more than 15 per cent by 2050.

The EU’s highest mortality rate, coupled with one of the bloc’s lowest birth rate and the emigration of tens of thousands of workers each year, leave Bulgaria with a headache over how to fund pensions and healthcare for an ageing population.

It is no surprise that tens of thousands of Bulgarians seek jobs abroad each year, with Germany, Britain and Spain their favoured destinations, creating a chronic shortage of staff in country’s health service, schools and other major sectors.

“There are now places where you don’t have doctor within radius of 50km. You have to bring own toilet paper to the hospital and these kinds of things. It’s a climate that lots of people just don’t want to live in anymore,” says Kaddik.

While young professionals are leaving home in search of higher wages, better working conditions and a less corrupt environment, many Bulgarians do not even wait until graduation to start looking abroad for opportunities.

About 17 per cent of Bulgarian students went to a foreign university last year, and some of the country’s top universities are now trying to fill hundreds of empty places for the new term.

A glimmer of good news for people returning from abroad is that they will probably find the family home waiting. About 84 per cent of Bulgarians own the place where they live, compared to just 53 per cent in Germany.

“People were given the apartments where they were living (when communism collapsed) and they are lucky to own their homes, otherwise they simply could not afford their housing,” says Kaddik.

“A lot of Bulgarians, especially the elderly, rely on food grown on a little family plot outside the city. The family bond is strong here, and among friends and relatives there is a lot of exchange of small services and helping each other out – but it’s out of necessity because of a lack of good services.”[/QUOTE]

[URL="https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/welcome-to-bulgaria-the-world-s-fastest-shrinking-nation-1.3658819"]https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/welcome-to-bulgaria-the-world-s-fastest-shrinking-nation-1.3658819[/URL]

[QUOTE=maco2envy;177212]Speaking of shitholes in the EU...

[B]Welcome to Bulgaria, the world’s fastest shrinking nation[/B]



[URL="https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/welcome-to-bulgaria-the-world-s-fastest-shrinking-nation-1.3658819"]https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/welcome-to-bulgaria-the-world-s-fastest-shrinking-nation-1.3658819[/URL][/QUOTE]


This is what I keep harping on about. If there was tangible evidence that NATO/EU will bring wealth and prosperity I would understand that some people would be willing to make some sacrifices regarding the national cause, but to make such sacrifices for no gain is insanity, not just Bulgaria look at the Baltic states, Italy, Romania, Catalonia, Greece and Romania to name a few.

People don’t realise, once the youth are gone they will never come back, and with no youth there are no Doctor, scientists, labourers, teachers and innovators. Countries like Germany/US/France/England use such organisations such as EU and NATO for their long term survival. The rest will die out or be taken over by other races with other values.

In a nutshell this was Goce Delchev's viewpoint of the world. A constant competition of ideas.

The western way of life is winning, and I guess people find it easier to go and live in a western country then fix the places they come from.

We are fighting a losing battle on the basis of ideas. We are selling something that no one wants to buy.

This conversation about the Prespa agreement is very nuanced. You have to cut through it all and get to the heart of it, which you already identified. People don't care about the implications of names and sovereignty and constitutions. This is purely about opening the exit door one way or another.

We get so caught up asking whether people are for a name change or not, that we miss the real problem. That 90% of the country would pick up and move tomorrow should the opportunity present itself. For me that is just as big of an abandonment of our history, culture, and identity as a name change.



[QUOTE=Pelagonija;177213]This is what I keep harping on about. If there was tangible evidence that NATO/EU will bring wealth and prosperity I would understand that some people would be willing to make some sacrifices regarding the national cause, but to make such sacrifices for no gain is insanity, not just Bulgaria look at the Baltic states, Italy, Romania, Catalonia, Greece and Romania to name a few.

People don’t realise, once the youth are gone they will never come back, and with no youth there are no Doctor, scientists, labourers, teachers and innovators. Countries like Germany/US/France/England use such organisations such as EU and NATO for their long term survival. The rest will die out or be taken over by other races with other values.[/QUOTE]