Ivanov is showing his true form. The loser will be the one that has negotiated, what an absolute tool, compromising our identity. They are showing their tactics, they all have hidden personal agendas and its apparent they stand to profit nicely. Why else would they continue to play a dangerous game in selling our identity

I think its prudent to keep our eyes on the ball and to read between the lines as much as possible but at the same time be weary of reading too much into statements that could be minefields of deliberate ambiguity...

What is Selling Out.

Has anyone ever heard Ivanov or Gruevski say anything other than that any solution must protect the integrity of the Macedonia name identity and language. Is this an act of selling out or is this the prime fundamental issue. If the identity is lost you cannot have anything else…if there are no Macedonians then everything Macedonian is either not yours or cease to exist.

Is it Not aiming at total reunification of Macedonia. Is this even possible.

I hear you say But its Macedonia…we are Macedonians…it belongs to us…they took it by force…so give it back. If it were two kids and a teacher in a school. Could such a precedent be allowed to happen. Wouldn’t the Basque in France and Spain put up their hand or the Kurds in Turkey and Iraq or the Turkish clans in China to name a few. Who is going to force these countries to give up land…then why would they force Greece to. But what about Hong Kong.

The issue of Hong Kong is not the same. Firstly the British and the Chinese had a binding agreement which no one in the west was prepared to go to war with China over breaking an agreement. No agreement or treaty exists regarding the occupied parts of Macedonia so how do we force Greece to give the land back…rely on their sense of decency or beg and say please a million times with a cherry on top or do we go to war or get someone else to go to war for us or do we pressure the un to set economic sanctions on Greece until they do. Is any of this realistic. Then what do you think Ivanov and Gruevski should do not to be a sell out.

Stop negotiating.

There are 3 kinds of money…4 if you count stealing.

You can earn your money. A very honourable thing to do but what if you need a lot of money right away like if you were buying a house. You could save from your earnings and wait…and wait…or you could borrow it.

Borrowed money is great in that it lets you do more right now than what you could do from your earnings but there are limits to how much you can borrow and how much others will let you borrow…not everyone is as privileged as Greece some of us actually have to pay back our borrowings.

Somebody could give you money. Not everybody is your daddy. There are charitable people but usually they expect something in kind back so where are the ground rules becomes important but working out the ground rules needs a bit of savoir-faire or it could be a deal breaker. This opens the door for…lets say some things to happen…without Both parties feeling they are getting exactly the deal they were expecting. Time goes by and circumstances change…upper hands become not so upper and underhands start working and the beggar is begged.

Madness in the method and method in the madness…a very [I]European manner[/I] maybe.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;86353]I think its prudent to keep our eyes on the ball and to read between the lines as much as possible but at the same time be weary of reading too much into statements that could be minefields of deliberate ambiguity...[/QUOTE]

There IS NO AMBIGUITY in the FACT that "our" ruling political elites in Mk are willing to "compromise" (sell out) DETRIMENTALLY to Macedonian national interests on the name issue, i.e. accept a NEW (amended) name for the state for international use. And this will not be the first nor the last stab in the back of Macedonian national interests, at least until there is nothing worthwhile left to sell out and compromise on.

[QUOTE=OziMak;86366]What is Selling Out.[/QUOTE]

Can you be short and to the point in what you are trying to say/convey in your posts?

Does anyone have any emails addresses of ivanov & gruevski so that we can all tell them off ??

[QUOTE=indigen;86371]Can you be short and to the point in what you are trying to say/convey in your posts?[/QUOTE]

Whether we like it or not I think the government have hitched their bets on this course of action

1. Preserve the Macedonian name identity and language above all.

2. Realising unity is not possible for now they have sacrificed pushing for unity to achieve point 1 above leaving the question of unity to a later time and from a different position but in the mean time holding out for minority right to make the wait bearable.

3. Balance the time…ie scheduling of reforms…to keep the eu happy with progress yet not faster than getting courtiers to recognise Macedonia and giving Macedonian a greater bargaining power…God know what deals they have done to get recognition…one we know of is the Chinese computer factory in RoM.

[QUOTE=indigen;86370]There IS NO AMBIGUITY in the FACT that "our" ruling political elites in Mk are willing to "compromise" (sell out) DETRIMENTALLY to Macedonian national interests on the name issue, i.e. accept a NEW (amended) name for the state for international use. And this will not be the first nor the last stab in the back of Macedonian national interests, at least until there is nothing worthwhile left to sell out and compromise on.[/QUOTE]

What's the answer Indigen...?

[QUOTE=Phoenix;86379]What's the answer Indigen...?[/QUOTE]

This topic is NOT about answers but about painting a CLEAR PICTURE of the STATE of the nation as it really is and not how some of us wish to IMAGINE it!

You might want to consider the following points that SOM presented in another topic:

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;86334]Who are we directing the message to? The world? Or our own politicians who are selling Macedonia out? What Macedonian Diaspora groups need to do is put pressure on the Macedonian government to conform with the goals of the Macedonian Cause, by cooperating with them while they continue to negotiate OUR IDENTITY we are making it easier for them to carry out their dirty work.

[B]I am not advocating the cessation of trade and interaction between Macedonians in the Diaspora and those in Macedonia, [COLOR="Navy"]but instead a form or forms of consistent and perpetual protest against the government's policies. [/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR="Red"]Reject them and their advances, do not welcome them when they visit us in Diaspora countries, in fact, that is when we should protest.[/COLOR][/B] The Macedonian government can end this fiasco with the name today, right now, all they have to say is NO to the violation of our heritage, identity and integrity.

[B][COLOR="Purple"]How many Macedonians are prepared to do that? And how many will still greet Gruevski or Ivanov like royalty when they visit the country in which they live? Our future can be ours to determine, but we need to take it into our hands.[/COLOR][/B] I eagerly await the next visit of any high-profile Macedonian politician to Australia - gone are the days of good reception,[B][COLOR="Red"] these people need to be held accountable for their actions, and if the Macedonians in Macedonia won't or can't do it, then the rest of the Macedonians across the world should. Afterall, the stupid decisions that some idiot politicians in Macedonia make, affect us all.[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

Cheers

[QUOTE=OziMak;86378]Whether we like it or not I think the government have hitched their bets on this course of action

1. Preserve the Macedonian name identity and language above all.[/QUOTE]
This is NOT clear (nor does it seem grammatically correct) what you are trying to convey! And if it is what I think you are trying to say, then you are completely wrong when it comes to the name of the state for international use. KOGA i VRAPCITE znaat deka imeto na drzhavata e PRODADENO za megjunarodna upotreba (vo najmala raka), VIE BI TREBALO DA SE RAZBUDITE OD ZIMSKIOT SON SHTO VE ZAFATIL VAS!!!!

[QUOTE]2. Realising unity is not possible for now they have sacrificed pushing for unity to achieve point 1 above leaving the question of unity to a later time and from a different position but in the mean time holding out for minority right to make the wait bearable.[/QUOTE]
What is this mumbo jumbo about? :))

[QUOTE]3. Balance the time…ie scheduling of reforms…to keep the eu happy with progress yet not faster than getting courtiers to recognise Macedonia and giving Macedonian a greater bargaining power…God know what deals they have done to get recognition…one we know of is the Chinese computer factory in RoM.[/QUOTE]
Being short and to the point is a BIG challenge for you, IMHO! :-)