[QUOTE=Bill77;84301]I am not supporting Ivanov and co on negotiations or any sort of name change, no matter how you twist it. All i am trying to do is become fair and balanced. If i was to put my hand in my pocket and help finance (which i did) the AMHRC/MHRMI campaign of end negotiations, obviously i have something against the current government lead by Ivanov and co and clearly i do not support the negotiations.

[B]But what [SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]I did support and would love to see more of[/COLOR][/SIZE], are[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"] comments Ivanov made recently[/COLOR][/SIZE],(which i will repost some again and again if need be)[/B] [/quote]
Whitewashing their (Ivanov's and Gruevski's and Co) treasonous deeds does not make for any balanced opinion, IMHO!

NOTHING IVANOV STATED IN HIS SPEECH/ADDRESS MOVES AWAY FROM THE FACT OF HIS/THEIR WILLINGNESS FOR CHANGING THE NAME OF MACEDONIA FOR INTERNATIONAL USE!!! If one reads that speech critically, they can/will clearly see the obvious intention of what Ivanov and Co are willing to do - change the name of Macedonia! That being the case, should they not be condemned for it and treated as any traitor should be?

[QUOTE]Now Indi, apart from the reference he used "Republic", can you find anything wrong with what he said and would you encourage this type of talk? [/QUOTE]
You first need to learn to comprehend the doublespeak inherent in what you posted above and also what they are currently practising and implementing and the consequences from those anti-Macedonian deeds.

[QUOTE]Now if you can find something wrong and your answer is no to the second part of the question, then you can't be taken serious anymore well not by me anyway.

But if you can't find anything wrong, and answer yes to encouraging this type of thinking by Ivanov, then i am afraid you too will be looked at as a yo yo just like me.

But in reality, all we are doing is being honest.[/QUOTE]
IN REALITY, IT IS A POISONED CHALICE (taken only by those illiterate in treasonous Mak political doublespeak) that Ivanov and Grujo are offering and NOTHING MORE - NO IFS, NO BUTS!

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;84348]Bill77,

So what if Ivanov made a speech in Parliament?? What does the "size of the audience" matter? He still supports the negotiations. Can you see the difference between words and actions?? [/QUOTE] Its harder to weasal his way out of something when its said infront of the world, than it would be if something is said in a local paper or radio station. Regarding his actions, read bellow.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;84348] If you know Ivanov's position, how can you claim he has "patriotic tendancies"? Because he says what YOU want to hear and then continues undermining our national sovereignty?[/QUOTE] Again he shows more patriotic tendencies than any other. If you can show me someone else that does, i will be happy to concede on this point.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;84348] Which citizens, other than Macedonian citizens, do you think Ivanov obligated to represent?[/QUOTE] Well in my opinion, he is fulfilling his obligations. Which is why i blame the citizens more than the Government in particulor Ivanov. Its they (citizens) that clearly want EU entry but not if it was to change our name.

Its they that aren't calling for end of negotiations. Its exactly what Ivanov is doing and has done. That is trying to get Macedonia in as a EU member. I will try to elaborate later on, i am now tied up.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;84348]Bill77,

So what if Ivanov made a speech in Parliament?? What does the "size of the audience" matter? He still supports the negotiations. Can you see the difference between words and actions??

If you know Ivanov's position, how can you claim he has "patriotic tendancies"? Because he says what YOU want to hear and then continues undermining our national sovereignty?

Which citizens, other than Macedonian citizens, do you think Ivanov obligated to represent?[/QUOTE]

It's better nowadays to be sceptical, when we discuss about Macedonian politicians, but in spite of that we are all in a hope to be proved wrong.

I don't think this hope of Bill is making him "supporter" of Ivanov, but we have to consider those statements as potential message with two aims:
1. To show political courtesy directed to the international community to keep Macedonia's pro-western image
2. to sent assurance to Macedonian people that despite the ongoing negotiations, the President will not succumb the pressure to change the name.

They are contradictory positions and equally posible to be true.

It's a matter of what we prefer to read, the first or the second line.

Germany & france should recognize macedonia under it's constitutional name.Greece should fuck off & stop interferring in macedonia's affairs.

why can't the president tell greece off to stop bullieng macedonia to capitulate & they should call off the talks.

[QUOTE=Bratot;84354]
2. to sent assurance to Macedonian people that despite the ongoing negotiations, [B][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="4"]the President will not succumb the pressure to change the name.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

And where do you read that he/they is/are not WILLING TO CHANGE THE NAME FOR INTERNATIONAL USE?

[QUOTE=indigen;84368]And where do you read that he/they is/are not WILLING TO CHANGE THE NAME FOR INTERNATIONAL USE?[/QUOTE]

Having different "international" name requires change of the constitution i.e. change of the state name, it is not posible in any other way.

To quote what Bill pointed before:

Therefore, once again I urge that [B]it is not acceptable to discuss a solution that touches upon [/B]Macedonian identity, Macedonian language and the [B]Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia[/B], being the guardian of our national sovereignty and our national dignity. Therefore, I would like to underline that as long as I am President of the Republic of Macedonia I will not allow this to happen.

[QUOTE=Bratot;84369]Having different "international" name requires change of the constitution i.e. change of the state name, it is not possible in any other way.[/quote]
Really? I think you are just trying to win Bill over to be in your favour (for some dubious reason) and you do not mind what arguments you are using!

If what you say above was the case, you would NOT have MFA (and thus the Mk government) proposing a name change to be effective upon EU entry as well as MANU saying that the 2008 proposal - Republika Makedonija (Skopje) was acceptable. See below:

[SIZE="4"]
[B]МАНУ: Предлогот во основа прифатлив[/B]

[B][COLOR="Red"]Претседателството на МАНУ, во проширен состав со поранешните претседатели на МАНУ, го поддржа последниот предлог на медијаторот Метју Нимиц за името.[/COLOR][/B]

"Предлогот претставува прифатлива основа за постигнување согласност со Република Грција затоа што го поддржува уставното име на Република Македонија и ја афирмира македонската национална самобитност", се вели во соопштението на МАНУ. [COLOR="Red"][B]Академиците тврдат дека предлогот е компромис на македонската страна, но истовремено не ја преминува црвената линија. "Прифаќањето на овој Предлог не налага промени на Уставот на Република Македонија за уставното име на државата и на македонскиот национален идентитет", смета МАНУ.[/B][/COLOR]

Според нив, важно е што е предвидено слободно и неексклузивно користење на атрибутот "македонски", во национална, етничка, јазична, културна и друга смисла.[B][COLOR="Red"] Новопредложеното меѓународно име "Република Македонија (Скопје)", за меѓународна службена употреба, не е негација на уставното име", тврдат академиците.[/COLOR][/B]
[COLOR="Navy"][B]"Со прифаќање на ова меѓународно име, ќе се надмине апсурдноста на досегашната привремена референца (ПЈРМ). [/B][/COLOR][COLOR="Red"][B]Отфрлањето на овој предлог може да има крајно негативни консеквенции за Македонија", велат тие.[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR="Purple"][B]Во МАНУ се зажгрижени дека земјата нема да може да ја користи самостојно скратено име Македонија, но сугерираат македонија да ги предолжи преговиоте до Самитот на НАТо во Букурешт.[/B][/COLOR] "Надлежните органи треба што побрзо да ги усогласат ставовите на нашата преговарачка страна и со нив да го запознаат медијаторот на овие преговори", препорачуваат академиците. Н.С.
[/SIZE]

"Makedonskite" politichari i "razgovorite za razlikite" povrzani so IMETO nashe...
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4827[/url]

[QUOTE=indigen;78938]As I see it, Gruevski was, IS and will forever remain a traitor (sell out)! He VOTED for the "Ramkoven dogovr" as a MINISTER in Ljubcho Georgivski's "Unity" Government, is fully committed to implementing ALL the previous treasonous deconstruction capitulationist agreements and is in coalition with UCK terrorists. On top of all this, he is now in the process of dealing Macedonia and Macedonians another hard (maybe even a final) blow to their existence as an ethnic and national entity.

[SIZE="4"][B]Gruevski's MFA is proposing the following sell out deal:[/B][/SIZE]

[URL="http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=274&id=979"][COLOR="Navy"]ГРЦИЈА СЕ ОДНЕСУВА ИРАЦИОНАЛНО[/COLOR][/URL]
Скопје, 8 Октомври 2010 година

Интервју на Министерот за надворешни работи, Антонио Милошоски, за германскиот дневен весник, “Suddeutsche Zeitung”


[SIZE="4"]Значи изнаоѓањето на решение ќе биде многу тешко.

[COLOR="Red"][B]- Но, не и невозможно, кога политичките елити, владата и опозицијата ќе бидат во таквото решение убедени.[/B][/COLOR] Ние ги плаќаме трошоците околу спорот и ние сакаме истиот да се надмине.
[/SIZE]
[SIZE="4"]Од НАТО Самитот во ноември не очекувате некаков сигнал?

[COLOR="Red"][B]- Не, но имаме еден предлог.[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR="Purple"]Кога [B]ние би направиле голема национална отстапка со цел да ги отпочнеме преговорите со ЕУ[/B], мораме да бидеме сигурни дека Грција нема повторно да не блокира по четвртото или десеттото поглавје. [/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]Затоа, треба двата процеси паралелно да се одвиваат, така што дури [B]по официјалниот прием на РМ во ЕУ би важело [SIZE="5"]новото име.[/SIZE][/B] На тој начин, можеме да ја надминеме недовербата во целиот случај.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]Велите Грција се однесува нерационално. Зошто тогаш во Скопје се поставуваат се повеќе статуи од Александар Велики? Тоа во Атина се сфаќа како провокација.

- Јас бев уште дете кога Македонија пред 20 години стана независна. Во тоа време не бевме толку концентрирани кон антиката. Но, колку повеќе Грција ја претставуваше историјата како забрането овошје за нас, толку поголема беше мотивацијата да се каже дека и ние не сме народ без корени. [COLOR="Red"]Тоа е веројатно комплекс на малите нации, мислам дека национализмот на едната страна може исто така да го разбуди национализмот на другата страна.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=Bratot;79256]Let's compare it:


From my older posting:

The only difference if you wish to name it as such, is the "patriotic" burden of the image that VMRO have locked for itself, but they don't differ in anything else from their rivals in SDSM.

The game is played on how to sell the name but staying on rule, the only solution of this political riddle is: cowardly pass the decission on the citizens and make them believe they are to decide something.
It's a pure nonsense, to have the self proclaimed patriotic party asking the citizens whether they prefer to protect or injure their own identity.

[B][SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]What VMRO is offering is a gun to commit a suicide. Because they lack the balls for killing despite the SDSM.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

What VMRO should have done is to disarm the posibility of changing the name.[/QUOTE]
Brate, what are you on about here and what exactly do you stand for?

Gruevski thread: [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=266&page=17[/url]

[B]And what are you actually suggesting to be wrong in what I said?[/B]


I didn't understand what are you trying to achieve with the quotation of MANY? [B]Do you want to convince us that changing the name for International purpose doesn't require change of the Constitution?[/B]

Are we talking about the President right now or?

Stop switching the channels for a moment.

[QUOTE]Really? I think you are just trying to win Bill over to be in your favour (for some dubious reason) and you do not mind what arguments you are using! [/QUOTE]

Actually it's you who do not mind what arguments are using by quoting MANY and you can be sure it will not make up for your intelectual inability.

As for Miloshevski I will state the same as before:

[url]http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3974&page=4[/url]

This is the new propaganda spin served on our table by the same machinery of ESI:

[B]"Find a solution that would delay the big concession"[/B]

"The two sides are not currently prepared for tough decisions and therefore we propose a solution that [B]does not require[/B] both parties to make [B]major concessions [/B][B][COLOR="Red"]now[/COLOR][/B]" explained expert from the [B]European Stability Initiative[/B], [B][U]Kristof Bender[/U][/B].
[url]http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang=en&id=279&person_ID=3[/url]

"Our proposal is not to change the name of the country for a promise to join the EU sometime in the future. This will be difficult, given the lack of trust between Skopje and Athens.[B] We suggest something else[/B]: [COLOR="red"][B]Macedonia to change its name to the Constitution, by name, for example, "Vardar Macedonia" or something similar[/B][/COLOR], [B]while standing provision that [COLOR="Blue"]the name change will take effect the day when Macedonia becomes a member of EU[/COLOR][/B]. This also means that if Macedonia does not join the Union, the change will become ineffective."

[url]http://novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=920101017401&id=9&setIzdanie=22087[/url]

The question is whether Milosevski is part of ESI?