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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Vangelovski 12-28-2010 01:46 AM

Bratot,

You're up to your old tricks again. You're pushing the same VASSAL arguments that our VASSAL politicians are. I'm not even going to go into the idiotic reasoning behind your latest statement because I think anyone that exercises even a small portion of reason can see it for what it is, but you are now suggesting that Macedonia cannot have one name for international use and another name for domestic use (which will also be used in the constitution). If this is so, how then is it that the current situation exists, in which Macedonia uses 'FYROM' internationally and 'Macedonia' domestically? According to your (idiotic) reasoning, Macedonia cannot use FYROM for international use and Macedonia for domestic use (and therefore Ivanov is not really suggesting what he in fact is suggesting), yet this has been the situation for the past 15 years. How is that possible, according to YOU?

Do you even see the disassociation of what is in fact happening and what you perceive to be happening? Do you see the subtle pro-VASSAL propaganda that you consistently slide into your posts? Do you see how DPMNE stating that they will not change the constitution with a view to changing the state name is just BS, because they have already changed the name for international use and kept a "constitutional name" for domestic use? Do you see how many times we have been over and over and over and over this "constitutional name" business and you are still pushing the same rubbish? Do you see why people think that you are a VASSAL PUPPET?

Bratot 12-28-2010 07:16 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;84388]Bratot,

You're up to your old tricks again. You're pushing the same VASSAL arguments that our VASSAL politicians are. I'm not even going to go into the idiotic reasoning behind your latest statement because I think anyone that exercises even a small portion of reason can see it for what it is, [B]but you are now suggesting that Macedonia cannot have one name for international use and another name for domestic use (which will also be used in the constitution). If this is so, how then is it that the current situation exists, in which Macedonia uses 'FYROM' internationally and 'Macedonia' domestically?[/B] According to your (idiotic) reasoning, Macedonia cannot use FYROM for international use and Macedonia for domestic use (and therefore Ivanov is not really suggesting what he in fact is suggesting), yet this has been the situation for the past 15 years. [B]How is that possible, according to YOU?[/B]
Do you even see the disassociation of what is in fact happening and what you perceive to be happening? Do you see the subtle pro-VASSAL propaganda that you consistently slide into your posts? Do you see how DPMNE stating that they will not change the constitution with a view to changing the state name is just BS, [U]because they have already changed the name for international use and kept a "constitutional name" for domestic use?[/U] Do you see how many times we have been over and over and over and over this "constitutional name" business and you are still pushing the same rubbish? Do you see why people think that you are a VASSAL PUPPET?[/QUOTE]


Your constant style of searching conspiracy in the debate is aimed to cover up for your ignorance and inability to provide other arguments.

Your assertion that "FYROM" is our 'international name' is [B]roughly incorrect[/B], [B]first [/B]by constant employing the use of the acronym as a name serving the Greek cause to avoid mentioning 'Macedonia'.

[B]Second[/B], by your utter ignorance of the nature of the provisional reference and its range of usage.

[B]Third[/B], you are confirming just once again your ignoratio elenchi and complying with the spin that we are actually negotiating replacement for "FYROM" and not in fact our state name.

That's entirely in line with the anti-Macedonian propaganda trying to deceit our people by pushing through such rhetoric.

On you queston:

[QUOTE]How is that possible, according to YOU?[/QUOTE]

the answer is:
With violation of the right of states to non-discrimination in their representation in the organization of universal character, expressed in an unambiguous way in Article 83 of the Vienna Convention on representation of states by forcing our state to use imposed derogated legal personality within the UN system and its relations with other international subjects.

Beside our corrupted authorities, it's also our general ignorance and our lethargic attitude that allowed this to get through without counter action and appropriate protest.

But after these many times that has been explained to you over and over and over and over again you can't call on your ignorance anymore and your pushing the same rubbish rhetoric is more of a indicator of your mischievous agenda that you hide under your skirt.

[SIZE="3"][B]Your constant effort to make mischief and to divide the membership on this forum, your hostile approach and your clear misadvise on Macedonian matters along with the misconstruction of arguments has been very strong evidence against yourself.[/B][/SIZE]

Before arbitrarily attaching etiquettes to others it's your real intentions that should be questioned first.

Risto the Great 12-28-2010 03:47 PM

Bratot, no matter what you write or how you spin it, FYROM is Macedonia's international name. The constitution of Macedonia has nothing to do with it, nor do bi-lateral agreements between countries.

If you are going to question agendas, why not question your own. How can you make what I have written above look good?

Vangelovski 12-28-2010 05:07 PM

Bratot,

You're convulsing so much garbage its difficult to keep up. You are now suggesting that "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is somehow better than "FYROM" because the Greeks prefer "FRYOM" in order not to say Macedonia and that somehow this name is "provisional" and of limited use.

How and why is the long form of FYROM "better" than the acronym, according to YOU? Just because it includes the word 'Macedonia'. Are they not equally repulsive for the reason that they are both violating the free will of the Macedonian people? How is FYROM "provisional" in any sense of the word (seeing it has been in use for 17 years and has no nominal expiry date)? How is it of limited international use?

Getting back to the original question, how is it possible for Macedonia NOT to have an international name and a domestic name when this is in fact happening at the moment? The answer you provided partially explains why it should not be forced to have two names, but does NOT explain the FACT that Macedonia is currently using TWO names, one for international use and one for domestic purposes and some bilateral instances, unless of course you are living in the matrix.

This goes all the way back to the original discussion of Ivanov not being a vassal politician and a traitor. You claim that he has no intention of changing Macedonia's name because it is not possible to have an international name without changing the constitution, and yet that is EXACTLY what is happening right now and has been the case for 17 years. The fact that Ivanov continues to ignore matters of natural law only shows that he is both willing and able to accept a name change.

Besides, Ivanov has never stated that he would not change the state name or have one name for international use and another for domestic use. He has only stated that he is willing to come to a solution that will not infringe (in his perverted mind) on the Macedonian identity, language and culture. The key word here is that he is WILLING TO FIND A COMPROMISE/SOLUTION FOR THE STATE NAME that in HIS mind is "acceptable".

Perhaps YOUR skirt is hiding a much larger and much more mischievous agenda than mine.

George S. 12-28-2010 06:23 PM

It's amazing how politicians say one thing & do another.Yes they favour no name change but why are they negotiating for a name change.We know it's only a matter of time & also entry to the eu & nato is linked with it.The politicians seem to be placing a huge emphasis on getting into eu or nato at the peril of losing their name.

Bill77 12-28-2010 06:30 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;84425] The key word here is that he is WILLING TO FIND A COMPROMISE/SOLUTION FOR THE STATE NAME that in HIS mind is "acceptable".
[/QUOTE]Vangelovski,

The Greek say the same thing (willing to find a compromise/solution) we know that will also never happen. I know we don't give a shit what the greeks think or do, My point is its all politics, its a case of tell them (the west) what they want to hear.

Unfortunate fact is, its a criteria (Having talks with Greece) forced by the west, if we are to enter EU and Nato. Entry to these clubs are what the citizens of Macedonia are Frothing at the mouth for.

There are three type of Macedonia groups regarding the negotiation.
A)The majority calling for the end negotiations are from the diaspora and there would be a small margin in the republic.
B)There are many, (which will be majority in the republic) calling for entry to these clubs but not if we would have to change our name.
C)Then there are those minority that don't care about the name.

I will say it again, until those in group B realize it's not possible what they want, and team up with the group in A, The government will continue its coarse.

Bratot 12-28-2010 06:35 PM

It seems you don't like the taste of your own medicine :)

I do mind your joined efforts to ensure implicit obedience from the rest of the members, by wilfully appointing yourself for absolute authority, and indeed, we are witnessing increasing displease against your intellectual persecution.

It's high time you reconsider your attitude or to meet the same destiny of Maknews.


Vangelovski,

all reasonable efforts to establish normal communication with you have failed so far, you are not interested in Macedonian matters as you care only for your hurted ego when proved to be wrong.

Risto,

unfortunatelly, you failed numerous times in keeping basic objectivity, and your assistance in the failure of Vangelovski will come back as a boomerang to you.

I will not put up anymore with your infatuation to dirty my contribution on this forum and the general cause.

There are moments like this when we are compel to chose our separate ways, with a hope that my leaving will provide better times for your forum.


In spite of the coming year, I wish you a happy and successful New Year.

Pozdrav,
Mihail

Risto the Great 12-28-2010 07:24 PM

Bratot, I still hope your English is so bad that you are not conveying whatever message it is you are really trying to say. But I will translate my interpretations of some of your statements for you:


[QUOTE=Bratot]Your assertion that "FYROM" is our 'international name' is roughly incorrect, first by constant employing the use of the acronym as a name serving the Greek cause to avoid mentioning 'Macedonia'.[/QUOTE][B]Translation:[/B]FYROM is not our international name (kind of). Especially when it is FYROM and not former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.


[QUOTE=Bratot]Second, by your utter ignorance of the nature of the provisional reference and its range of usage.[/QUOTE][B]Translation:[/B]The provisional reference applies only in limited circumstances and or situations.


[QUOTE=Bratot]Third, you are confirming just once again your ignoratio elenchi and complying with the spin that we are actually negotiating replacement for "FYROM" and not in fact our state name.[/QUOTE][B]Translation:[/B]You have incorrectly concluded that we are negotiating a replacement for FYROM when in fact we are dealing with negotiations about the State name of Macedonia.



You need to look objectively at what the hell you are saying. You seem to have such a deep desire to sound intelligent that you are often lost in your own words.

What is not clear about FYROM being Macedonia's international name? How "roughly incorrect" is this?
If my translations are correct, you sound like the pathetic, ignorant, mentally challenged, slave-mentality Macedonians in Macedonia who say "I know what I am, nobody is going to tell me I am not Macedonian, they can call me whatever they want .... I know what I am."

If you feel you are taking some kind of moral high ground in this matter by leaving the forum, I would suggest you try to explain yourself in the above context first. Otherwise, you should really stay out of Macedonian matters because your intentions appear to be dangerous or at best nonsensical.

Vangelovski 12-28-2010 08:03 PM

For those new to the threat, Bratot is defending Ivanov for not ending the negotiations and arguing that the Macedonian identity can be safe guarded so long as the "right" name compromise is found. In doing so, he's run so many circles around the issues involved, that he has not only confused everyone else, but I think he's confused himself. I'll let his comments and my rebuttles stand as they are.

Rogi 12-28-2010 08:50 PM

Bratot, how does the existing situation, or existing reality, that Macedonia has an International name which differs from its' actual State name, fit within your assertion that a situation exactly identical to the current, cannot exist?

According to the United Nations, the name by which Macedonia is recognised, is 'The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'.

"The Republic of Slovenia was admitted as a Member of the United Nations by General Assembly resolution A/RES/46/236 of 22 May 1992.
By resolution A/RES/47/225 of 8 April 1993, the General Assembly decided to admit as a Member of the United Nations the State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over its name."
[url]http://www.un.org/en/members/#t[/url]

This means, the internationally recognised and used name for the Republic of Macedonia, is different from the official name of the state that is determined by the Macedonian people and subsequently enshrined in the Macedonian Constitution.

Therefore, the situation that you have said cannot exist, in fact already exists and has so for 17 years.

Furthermore, there are numerous instances where the internationally used name of a state, differs from their official state name as determined by their people and as subsequently enshrined in their Constitutions. A number of these examples have been posted on this forum in previous threads, some of those examples were in fact posted by you.


I am not sure that I have followed your argument correctly and I ask that you explain it more concisely, because I find it difficult to believe that you are suggesting that the situation which already exists, cannot exist.

That is, I may have mistakenly interpreted your argument as one suggesting Macedonia cannot have a name for its' own internal use and a separate name by which it is referred to in the United Nations? That is already the current situation.


As a side note, I think that by now there should be no doubt by anybody on this forum that the Government of the Republic of Macedonia is indeed committed to finding what they describe as a 'solution'. The 'solution' they are working toward is a replacement of the 'The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia', for some other term they deem more acceptable, but in any case, an international name that is not 'Macedonia', or more bluntly, an international name for the Macedonian State, that is different from the official name 'Macedonia', different from the name determined by the Macedonian people. This is, regardless of who tries to spin it and how, a name change. Only this time, the Macedonian people wont be lied to with stories of '3 month interim', rather it would be a permanent decision for a new name for the state of the Macedonian people, or perhaps more correctly, a final nail in the coffin in which the idea of a Macedonian state for the Macedonian people, is buried.

Vangelovski 12-28-2010 09:34 PM

[quote=Rogi;84453]As a side note, I think that by now there should be no doubt by anybody on this forum that the Government of the Republic of Macedonia is indeed committed to finding what they describe as a 'solution'. The 'solution' they are working toward is a replacement of the 'The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia', for some other term they deem more acceptable, but in any case, an international name that is not 'Macedonia', or more bluntly, an international name for the Macedonian State, that is different from the official name 'Macedonia', different from the name determined by the Macedonian people. This is, regardless of who tries to spin it and how, a name change. Only this time, the Macedonian people wont be lied to with stories of '3 month interim', rather it would be a permanent decision for a new name for the state of the Macedonian people, or perhaps more correctly, a final nail in the coffin in which the idea of a Macedonian state for the Macedonian people, is buried.[/quote]
You've hit the nail right on the head Rogi!

fyrOM 01-03-2011 02:26 PM

[I]Very concerning. Does anyone know more on this.[/I]

[B]This year can be expected solution zasporot name[/B]

[url]http://www.idividi.com.mk/vesti/makedonija/652505/index.html[/url]

Skopje, January 3, 2011 (AP) - In the statements of top officials is expected this year to finally be resolved the dispute with Greece, we can read that the Macedonian side sends a message to Nimetz to Athens and they were ready to compromise on finding solution, according to Professor Dimitar Mirchev. Speaking to Radio Free Europe, he estimated that this year we can expect the dispute to reach a mature stage, even to come to the end of this process.

- More months are needed to prepare the public for a change and for a solution. After that procedure to be performed, whether the referendum, whether in Parliament, ratification in the parliaments and so on. So, it takes several months and now I think there is more time and maneuver space, governments are burdened with some immediate tasks, so I think it can be used productively to the space weather, said Mirchev.

George S. 01-03-2011 04:03 PM

Ozemak they said that last year & the year before..i hope the professor is wrong & we don't capitulate.

Risto the Great 01-03-2011 06:13 PM

Skopje optimistic about name dispute
 
[url]http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2011&mm=01&dd=02&nav_id=71881[/url]

[QUOTE]SKOPJE -- Macedonia President Gjorge Ivanov says that he is [B]convinced there will be an agreement in the his country's name dispute with neighboring Greece.
[/B]
Ivanov told reporters in Skopje on Saturday that his country believed there can be a solution, and that this was the reason they were taking part in negotiations.

He also stated a meeting was possible in late January between representatives of Greece and Macedonia and UN envoy Matthew Nimetz.

"We expect that meeting... and it should bring a dynamic into the process and enable for a final solution to that problem which has burdened us for almost two decades," said Ivanov.

Greece has contested Skopje's right to use the constitutional name of "the Republic of Macedonia", considering that a northern Greek province is also called Macedonia.

Athens blocked Skopje's NATO membership bid on account of this, while the country joined the UN as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FRYOM).

The latest proposal tabled by Nimetz is for the country to be called "Northern Macedonia".

Skopje, however, pointed out that the change of the name was not the only problem, with its officials saying that Greece "also wants to change the name of the Macedonian nation, language, passports and other elements of national identity".[/QUOTE]

Just as a thought. If Macedonia agrees to a name change, will we in the Diaspora hold all Macedonians in Macedonia responsible for this treachery?

Pelister 01-03-2011 06:50 PM

This is a disaster.

These politicians are not only agreeing to change the name, they are discussing legal qualification of when the name can be used, and in what way. They will be agreeing to "restrictions" on the use of the word 'Macedonia'. Gruevski has suggested that much up to now. You can bet that once these fkn idiots in the government sign something - they will be shitting all over Macedonians world wide, and it will be Macedonians in the diaspora who care about their country and their history, who will suffer for it. Can you imagine what the Greek lobby in this country will do if the governmnent puts restrictions on the name 'Macedonia'? They will be smiling with joy everytime a Macedonian decides to cal himself a Macedonian.

What is a Greek citizen (Gruevski), who nobody knows anything about, doing in the Macedonian parliament and negotiating our identity [U]against the wishes of the Macedonian people[/U]?

Bill77 01-03-2011 06:53 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;84946][url]http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2011&mm=01&dd=02&nav_id=71881[/url]



Just as a thought. If Macedonia agrees to a name change, will we in the Diaspora hold all Macedonians in Macedonia responsible for this treachery?[/QUOTE]I always have and always will.

People here have mistaken me as a Pro Ivanov (even though i have pointed at certain comments he has made that sound good does not mean I would put total trust in him, just like if i am posting a Greek author who comments on the truth would not make me a Philhellene) . I am far from trusting politicians.

I just don't understand and frustrates me when People on One hand have expectations in Politicians to do the right thing, and on the other they rightfully so perceive them as corrupt, untrustworthy and so on. Can you see the oxymoron in this?

It defies logic, when groups sit back, blaming someone or something (that you have accepted is not an answer to your problem), instead of these groups doing something about it. And thats Taking matters in their own hands.

Pelister 01-03-2011 06:56 PM

[QUOTE=Bill77;84949]I always have and always will.

People here have mistaken me as a Pro Ivanov (even though i have pointed at certain comments he has made that sound good does not mean I would put total trust in him, just like posting when a Greek author would comment on the truth would not make me a Philhellene) . I am far from trusting politicians.

I just don't understand and frustrates me when People on One hand have expectations in Politicians to do the right thing, and on the other they rightfully so perceive them as corrupt, untrustworthy and so on. Can you see the oxymoron in this?

It defies logic, when groups sit back, blaming someone or something (that you have accepted is not an answer to your problem), instead of these groups doing something about it. And thats Taking matters in their own hands.[/QUOTE]

I know one Egejec who will never call himself a Macedonian again, if they change the name and put restrictions on its use.

Rogi 01-03-2011 07:04 PM

[QUOTE]I know one Egejec who will never call himself a Macedonian again, if they change the name and put restrictions on its use.[/QUOTE]

That would have to be one of the silliest things I have heard in quite a while. I couldn't even imagine giving up my Macedonian identity because of some Macedonian traitors who sold us out. Instead, I'd be working out ways to get them out of power and change things, it is absolutely never too late to stand up and fight for your rights and your identity.

As for Risto's question, I think every Macedonian including those in the Diaspora, should be blamed, for doing nothing to stop it.

When the Government is selling out the Macedonian people, it needs to be stopped. The only people who can stop it, are the Macedonian people and when letters and lobbying fail, then the only way, is through an organised or unorganised revolution.

Risto the Great 01-03-2011 07:07 PM

Macedonians have been stateless before and have fought for their identity for much longer than the Macedonian republic has existed. I will have to fight every spiteful inclination I have to be of any use to a Macedonian Republic that capitulates to this final lowest level.

BigMak 01-03-2011 07:10 PM

[QUOTE=Rogi;84952]That would have to be one of the silliest things I have heard in quite a while. I couldn't even imagine giving up my Macedonian identity because of some Macedonian traitors who sold us out. Instead, I'd be working out ways to get them out of power and change things, it is absolutely never too late to stand up and fight for your rights and your identity.

As for Risto's question, I think every Macedonian including those in the Diaspora, should be blamed, for doing nothing to stop it.

When the Government is selling out the Macedonian people, it needs to be stopped. The only people who can stop it, are the Macedonian people and when letters and lobbying fail, then the only way, is through an organised or unorganised revolution.[/QUOTE]

agreed, ultimate responsibility does fall on all Macedonians.

Risto the Great 01-03-2011 07:10 PM

[QUOTE=Rogi;84952]As for Risto's question, I think every Macedonian including those in the Diaspora, should be blamed, for doing nothing to stop it. [/QUOTE]
I disagree. We in the Diaspora do not vote to get these tikvi running the country. We in the Diaspora have also been extremely critical of the capitulations of the past. You cannot tar us with the same brush as the people of the Macedonian Republic.

George S. 01-03-2011 07:15 PM

if the diaspora had a say in the running of macedonia then it would not be in the mess it is.

Soldier of Macedon 01-03-2011 07:32 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;84946]If Macedonia agrees to a name change, will we in the Diaspora hold all Macedonians in Macedonia responsible for this treachery?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't blame all Macedonians in Macedonia, but, as you say, they are the people that vote in these traitors, so who else can be blamed? Why aren't the patriots in Macedonia, groups or individuals, making some serious noise??
[QUOTE="Pelister"]I know one Egejec who will never call himself a Macedonian again, if they change the name and put restrictions on its use.[/QUOTE]
That is immature. What sort of Macedonian would renounce their identity in protest against the actions of others? If anything, it should give him more resolve to maintain the heritage of his ancestors instead of throwing it out of the window.

UMDiaspora.org 01-03-2011 07:58 PM

Macedonia's Government Must Cease all Negotiations with Greece. Macedonia - one and only. Macedonian identity, people, language - one and only.

Soldier of Macedon 01-03-2011 08:35 PM

Is that what you told Macedonian politicians and media while you were in Macedonia?

fyrOM 01-03-2011 09:06 PM

It might sound…I don’t even know what word to use…nice…to say the blame exist with all Macedonians but I do not agree.

This situation reminds me of a couple of Croatian guys I new a long time ago bitching and moaning about a free Croatia. Like I said to them then things will only get done by people on the ground. It was only when the Croatians stood up on their own feet did the leave Yugoslavia.

The diaspora can make support but cannot do the changes…it is always the people on the ground who can and hence lies the greatest responsibility. Is the burden inequitable…yes. Is it fair that it is so…no…but that’s how life is.

makedonche 01-03-2011 09:40 PM

[QUOTE]Just as a thought. If Macedonia agrees to a name change, will we in the Diaspora hold all Macedonians in Macedonia responsible for this treachery?
[/QUOTE]

Interesting question.......my thoughts have always been that you are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution.
Having said that we seem to be a part of a problem not of our making and beyond reasonable ability to be able to instigate a solution.
Firstly, all Macedonians will be responsible if the name is changed - it is uanacceptable to avoid responsibility for the maintaining of our identity or for allowing it to be changed. The level of responsibility is a variable that should be measured by the capacity of the individual to prevent this happening, for example, I do not hold the disabled responsibile in any way if thay are incapable of taking any action. Therefore it is incumbent upon every capable Macedonian to prevent this happening according to their ability to take action.
I don't believe we can or will hold every Macedonian responsible in Macedonia for allowing this to happen.

Big Bad Sven 01-03-2011 10:22 PM

The alarm bells should be ringing pretty loud for ALL Macedonians right now no matter where they live. Its a question of are we going to give a fuck and stop our spineless politicians from selling us out, again, or are we going to capitulate and do nothing, again.

Once the name has been changed then it would be extremely hard for Macedonia to get it back, just look at the pathetic state of affairs with our original flag and the ohrid agreement...

If the name change does happen, i will blame all Macedonians, but i would be extremely disappointed if the Macedonians in the republic don’t go out with a fight or express their concern, just like what happened with the flag.

Its funny because it seems like history keeps on repeating itself in Macedonia, lets hope its not the case for our identity.

Phoenix 01-03-2011 10:25 PM

[QUOTE=UMDiaspora.org;84967]Macedonia's Government Must Cease all Negotiations with Greece. Macedonia - one and only. Macedonian identity, people, language - one and only.[/QUOTE]

How about you put that message into a press release, express your total disgust that Macedonian politicians are attempting to sell our name and capitulate to the demands of our enemies.

Do something with conviction for once...instead of showboating on forums.

Phoenix 01-03-2011 10:31 PM

[QUOTE=OziMak;84974]
This situation reminds me of a couple of Croatian guys I new a long time ago bitching and moaning about a free Croatia. Like I said to them then things will only get done by people on the ground. It was only when the Croatians stood up on their own feet did the leave Yugoslavia.
[/QUOTE]

The croats never needed you to lead the way, they've always known what they wanted, they've always pumped shitloads of dollars into supporting their movements but what have you done OM...?

Seems as though everyone is good to offer advice but when you ask them to dig deep into their pockets and to put the money where their mouth is they turn mute...

Frank 01-03-2011 11:59 PM

Who do we hold responsible? the Macedonians who are the keepers of our Homeland or us who continue to choose to live outside of the Republic?

Instead of looking to whom or what to be accountable we are all responsible although I doubt nothing more then the locals making change happen.

I can say if the Government do the unthinkable and the Macedonians [U]more importantly[/U] are idle to it I will never accept ever returning to Macedonia again unless there is a armed revolution.

Volk 01-04-2011 12:30 AM

This statement was obviously for EU consumption, just like for local consumption they say we will not change the name.

Its funny how so many of you take every statement seriously after 20 years of the same bullshit.

makedonche 01-04-2011 12:39 AM

[QUOTE=Volk;84993]This statement was obviously for EU consumption, just like for local consumption they say we will not change the name.

Its funny how so many of you take every statement seriously after 20 years of the same bullshit.[/QUOTE]

Volk
That may be true, but have you noticed the terminology has altered, the times lines are closer together between announcement and proposed meeting?

Risto the Great 01-04-2011 12:56 AM

[QUOTE=Volk;84993]This statement was obviously for EU consumption, just like for local consumption they say we will not change the name.

Its funny how so many of you take every statement seriously after 20 years of the same bullshit.[/QUOTE]

I don't think the bullshit has been the same for 20 years. It has been getting stickier and smellier over this time. Nothing to be proud of since independence in my opinion.

George S. 01-04-2011 01:06 AM

that's right you can't blame everyone.Those that are going on with the negotiations will be responsibleThere's aalways hope so don't give up hope,look at the way greece is falling in a heap as it's defaulting on payments to the eu.

Vangelovski 01-04-2011 01:11 AM

[quote=Volk;84993]This statement was obviously for EU consumption, just like for local consumption they say we will not change the name.

Its funny how so many of you take every statement seriously after 20 years of the same bullshit.[/quote]

What would be funny, if it wasn't so sad, is your complete disregard for all the capitulations to date and your focus on the one that has not yet happened regardless of the evidence that it is extremely likely.

Bill77 01-04-2011 01:59 AM

[QUOTE=Volk;84993]This statement was obviously for EU consumption, just like for local consumption they say we will not change the name.

Its funny how so many of you take every statement seriously after 20 years of the same bullshit.[/QUOTE]I understand what you are saying and have previously said similar things.

But this latest announcement has sent shivers down my spine.

[QUOTE=makedonche;84995]Volk
That may be true, [B]but have you noticed the terminology has altered, the times lines are closer together between announcement and proposed meeting?[/B][/QUOTE] Mabe this is my answer why i have shivers.

George S. 01-04-2011 02:08 AM

regardless of what happens we can still call ourselves macedonian.But those stupid politicians who cave in to pressure will be traitors.

Risto the Great 01-04-2011 02:11 AM

[QUOTE=George S.;85004]But those stupid politicians who cave in to pressure will be traitors.[/QUOTE]
What about the stupid Macedonians that:[LIST][*]Voted for the ruling coalition.[*]Voted for the opposition party who clearly has been ready to capitulate from inception.[*]Didn't vote because they did not want to encourage any politicians.[/LIST]

George S. 01-04-2011 02:31 AM

shoot them before a firing squad for selling out.


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