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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Gocka 10-23-2018 09:37 AM

My last comment was not directed at you, it was meant to be a general comment towards other readers and members. I only quoted you because I wanted to add to what you started in you first comment.

Its important that a decent group of people like Levica don't get cheaply dismissed because they are anti "nationalism". Even though everything they advocate for in terms of Macedonian identity is nationalist.

Its a shame that anyone who is remotely left leaning has to automatically proclaim that they are anti nationalism just to be considered legitimate.

[QUOTE=vicsinad;177468]I agree with you Gocka, but I'm quoting Levica's own platform, which is why I think they've confounded nationalism with chauvinism and they themselves really aren't truly "anti-nationalist" but are anti Serbo and Greko type of nationalism (chauvinism). Still, Levica says they're anti-nationalism, even if what they mean by nationalism is not what we think when we hear the word nationalism. For example, from Levica's platform:[/QUOTE]

vicsinad 10-23-2018 09:43 AM

[QUOTE=Gocka;177469]My last comment was not directed at you, it was meant to be a general comment towards other readers and members. I only quoted you because I wanted to add to what you started in you first comment.

Its important that a decent group of people like Levica don't get cheaply dismissed because they are anti "nationalism". Even though everything they advocate for in terms of Macedonian identity is nationalist.

Its a shame that anyone who is remotely left leaning has to automatically proclaim that they are anti nationalism just to be considered legitimate.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, both the Left and the Right are confused about nationalism. They both tie it in with right-wing beliefs and conservativism, and tie in internationalism with left-wing beliefs and liberalism. That's a mistake.

I too hope that they aren't dismissed because they're left-wing and have this anti-nationalism platform. Though, I would like to see more about how Levica thinks regarding making Albanian an official language.

Niko777 10-23-2018 11:53 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;177463]Still loving the Mina report articles. I used to think they were a little crazy, now I see they are the only rational ones in Macedonia. Read their latest on Levica:

[url]http://www.minareport.com/2018/10/23/while-levica-organizes-protests-vmro-sellouts-admit-snake-mijalkov-did-bribe-mps/[/url][/QUOTE]

They're rational until DPMNE gets back in power. Then they turn into the party's mouth piece, as we've seen in the past.

Risto the Great 10-23-2018 02:59 PM

I think they may have been untethered from DPmNE after all this embarrassment. I'm not sure they will comply faithfully after all this.

Risto the Great 10-23-2018 05:43 PM

[QUOTE=vicsinad;177470]Indeed, both the Left and the Right are confused about nationalism. They both tie it in with right-wing beliefs and conservativism, and tie in internationalism with left-wing beliefs and liberalism. That's a mistake.[/QUOTE]
"Nationalism" is in the same league as "men's rights" in the Western world now. If you have it, you don't boast about it. Keep it on the down low. The rest of the nations (and men) just keep trying to meet whatever expectations are foisted upon them and forgot what they were a long time ago.

Carlin 10-23-2018 09:28 PM

[SIZE="3"][B]Macedonia’s opposition VMRO-DPMNE in disarray after losing name deal vote[/B][/SIZE]

URL:
[url]http://www.intellinews.com/macedonia-s-opposition-vmro-dpmne-in-disarray-after-losing-name-deal-vote-150686/[/url]

By Valentina Dimitrievska in Skopje October 23, 2018

Macedonia’s main opposition party, VMRO-DPMNE, decided late on October 22 to expel ex-intelligence chief Saso Mijalkov, a cousin of former prime minister Nikola Gruevski, and former health minister Nikola Todorov. The two were accused of persuading opposition MPs to vote for constitutional changes related to the name deal with Greece.

Macedonia’s parliament gave the green light late on October 19 to the constitutional changes, which include changing the country’s name to North Macedonia. The move will unblock Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, which has been stalled for many years, but it is strongly opposed by VMRO. However, eight opposition MPs voted for the changes, giving the government the needed two-thirds majority.

Several of the opposition MPs who backed the changes are accused of involvement in the parliament violence in April 2017 or of other criminal deeds. Both Mijalkov and Todorov are facing criminal charges.

The decision to expel Mijalkov and Todorov was taken at a meeting of VMRO’s central committee at a time when Macedonia’s biggest opposition party is deeply divided about its future strategy.

The leadership was angered by MPs who voted yes. But while some support current party leader Hristijan Mickoski, others, who say they are reformists, seek his dismissal. This has divided the party into several factions.

At the “historic” meeting, as the leadership says, the party decided to "clear" the party and asked municipal committees to launch disciplinary procedures to exclude Mijalkov and Todorov. They are accused of collaborating with Social Democrat Prime Minister Zoran Zaev to secure the eight opposition votes.

VMRO’s central committee also expressly expelled the party’s deputy president Mitko Jancev and executive committee member Konstadin Bogdanov for the same reasons, the statement released on October 23 said.

Furthermore, the central committee wants the eight MPs who voted for the constitutional changes to return their mandates, saying they worked contrary to the will of citizens.

“VMRO-DPMNE is putting an end to the past and is strongly moving forward as a reformed party and only with the idea of Macedonia,” the party’s deputy president Aleksandar Nikolovski said in the statement.

[B]Bribery allegations[/B]

The eight have been accused of taking bribes. The Central Committee called on the Public Prosecutor's Office to investigate allegations of pressures, threats, blackmail and bribery of MPs to persuade them to vote for the constitutional changes.

MPs who voted yes denied the allegations, saying they believed they were doing the right thing for the country.

Former culture minister from VMRO, Elizabeta Kancevska Mileska, who voted yes in the parliament and also faces criminal charges, said on a TV show that she is standing behind her decision that there is a need for constitutional changes and that the people should not be divided into patriots and traitors.

The governing Social Democrats reacted in a statement saying that the anti-Western leadership of VMRO, led by Hristijan Mickoski, remains isolated in its intentions to keep Macedonia away from the EU and Nato.

“Mickoski and the anti-Western leadership have been defeated by their own party, by the majority of citizens, and by MPs who voted for the future in the EU and Nato by accepting constitutional changes,” the SDSM said in the statement.

The SDSM’s general secretary Aleksandar Kiracovski urged other opposition MPs to support the process and to vote yes in the next stages of constitutional changes.

[B]Russia weighs in[/B]

Meanwhile on October 23, the Russian foreign ministry accused the Macedonian government of using [COLOR="Blue"]“threats and bribery”[/COLOR] to launch the process of constitutional changes in the parliament. [COLOR="Blue"][B]Russia is openly against Macedonia's accession to Nato.[/B][/COLOR]

“Eight votes, which were not enough to get a qualified majority, were secured by blackmail, threats and bribery of opposition deputies,” the Russian ministry said in the statement on October 22.

The ministry claimed that three opposition MPs were released from arrest, two who had been detained by special prosecutors were promised freedom, while the others were offered money in exchange for a yes vote.

“The parliamentarians were locked in offices, their mobile phones were seized. The US ambassador was in the parliament until the end of the parliament session, which leaves no doubt who orchestrated this process,” the ministry said.

According to the Russian ministry, the solution of the Macedonian-Greek dispute should be based on legal foundations and on the broad support of the people.

In the next stage of the process of implementing the name deal with Greece, the government will send the constitutional amendments to the parliament on October 26 for which they need a simple majority. The process may last one month.

Then the amendments should be finally approved in the parliament with a two-thirds majority, a process expected to be completed by the end of January.

However, the process is not expected to run smoothly as some small parties who oppose the deal have announced protests. It is not clear how deeply divided VMRO will act during the next stages of the deal implementation.


[SIZE="3"][B]Macedonia MPs Deny Bribe and Amnesty Allegations[/B][/SIZE]

URL:
[url]http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-mps-deny-bribe-and-amnesty-allegations-10-22-2018[/url]

[B][COLOR="Blue"]Macedonian government and opposition MPs who backed the historic 'name' agreement denied claims that they had taken bribes or been offered amnesty in exchange for their votes.[/COLOR][/B]

Sinisa Jakov Marusic BIRN Skopje

The Macedonian government has insisted that nobody bribed opposition MPs who voted in favour of the historic ‘name’ agreement with Greece on Friday or offered to drop charges against lawmakers who are currently on trial in several high-profile cases in return for their support in the vote.

Defence Minister Radmila Shekerinska, who is also vice president of the main ruling Social Democrats, said that the political process for adoption of the name agreement and the ongoing court cases against some MPs have nothing in common.

Gocka 10-23-2018 10:54 PM

If nothing about your premise adds up, then maybe you should rethink your premise.

Macedonia is not in disarray because of foreign powers, not completely at least. It is in disarray because Macedonians are weak and corrupt.

Why Macedonia? It's not like we were chosen. Macedonia has been at odds with Greece over its name for 30 years now. Greece finally found a weasel bold enough to make the name change a reality.

Why now? Probably some pressure from NATO to come to an agreement with Greece to get Macedonia into NATO. Also they finally found a weasel big enough to make it a reality.

Why can't Macedonia stand up to outside powers? Because they are weak cowards and sellouts. The politicians know that the people won't do shit about it, so they do as they please.

Everything that just happened in Macedonia is being perpetuated by less than a 100 people, think about that for a second. Then realize that Macedonia can't muster a big enough resistance to overthrow 100 people. I reckon 30 of us in a pissed of mood would make short work of them.

Does it make sense now?

[QUOTE=nushevski77;177482]I know this is a bit off topic but why is it that Macedonia is the butt of the joke of the balkans how is it that out of all the countries of ex Yugoslavia; Macedonia seems to be in disarray. I know it's because of foreign powers using Macedonia to push their agenda but why Macedonia? did they just decide out of thin air that Macedonia was going to be their vassal? and how was Macedonia not strong enough to withstand these foreign powers, like the rest of the balkans seems to be able to standup for themselves? sorry if this was the Wong place to write this but I'm just still so angry with whats happened.[/QUOTE]

Gocka 10-23-2018 10:59 PM

It is farking retarded is what it is. Every country vies for its own interests yet apparently no one is a nationalist? We are fine with calling people patriots, even though its not possible to be a patriot without also being a nationalist. Go figure.

[quote] [B]Patriot:[/B] a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.[/quote]

[quote][B]Nationalism:[/B] is a political, social, and economic system characterized by the promotion of the interests of a particular nation, especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining sovereignty (self-governance) over the homeland. The political ideology of nationalism holds that a nation should govern itself, free from outside interference and is linked to the concept of self-determination. Nationalism is further oriented towards developing and maintaining a national identity based on shared, social characteristics, such as culture and language, religion and politics, and a belief in a common ancestry.[/quote]

I'm serious, I don't understand society anymore.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;177477]"Nationalism" is in the same league as "men's rights" in the Western world now. If you have it, you don't boast about it. Keep it on the down low. The rest of the nations (and men) just keep trying to meet whatever expectations are foisted upon them and forgot what they were a long time ago.[/QUOTE]

Risto the Great 10-23-2018 11:15 PM

[QUOTE=Gocka;177484]I'm serious, I don't understand society anymore.[/QUOTE]I have never been much of a conspiracy theorist before. But recent events have made it abundantly clear that other agendas are being fulfilled in Macedonia.

So, perhaps a better question is what, who, when, how did nationalism become a dirty word?

Russia and China don't play that game and are fiercely nationalistic.

USA is nationalistic but doesn't make a big deal about it (refer my earlier post) because it sends the wrong message to the other lapdog countries adorned with USA's favour.

Gocka 10-23-2018 11:48 PM

Clearly something is happening in Macedonia beyond our understanding and I'm sure the shit will hit the fan sooner rather than later.

Lately I'm less concerned with the puppet masters and more fascinated, or should I say dumbfounded that there aren't even a 100 crazy people in Macedonia that would do something bold given the state of affairs.

I mean shit, maybe its because the US is a much bigger country with many more people, but I bet we can find a 100 people to have an orgy on the Brooklyn bridge and then jump off it by tomorrow.

How is it possible that there isn't even a hand full of people that would act more radically to everything that has happened? In the past we have had a few outbursts for much smaller reasons. Or is it that those handful of incidents were politically motivated and financed, and now that no one wants to finance such an act, there are none.


[QUOTE=Risto the Great;177487]I have never been much of a conspiracy theorist before. But recent events have made it abundantly clear that other agendas are being fulfilled in Macedonia.

So, perhaps a better question is what, who, when, how did nationalism become a dirty word?

Russia and China don't play that game and are fiercely nationalistic.

USA is nationalistic but doesn't make a big deal about it (refer my earlier post) because it sends the wrong message to the other lapdog countries adorned with USA's favour.[/QUOTE]


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