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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

DedoAleko 09-14-2010 10:10 AM

Originalniot teks moze da go najdete ovde:

[url]http://www.paron.gr/v3/new.php?id=58803&colid=37&catid=42&dt=2010-09-12%200:0:0[/url]

Bi bilo dobro nekoj koj go znae jazikot da go razgleda originalniot tekst. "Sluchajno" od Sitel da nemaat neshto ispushteno da prenesat.

ArMakedon 09-14-2010 02:47 PM

[quote=dedoaleko;70608]originalniot teks moze da go najdete ovde:

[url]http://www.paron.gr/v3/new.php?id=58...-09-12%200:0:0[/url]

bi bilo dobro nekoj koj go znae jazikot da go razgleda originalniot tekst. "sluchajno" od sitel da nemaat neshto ispushteno da prenesat.[/quote]

Линкот не ти работи.

DedoAleko 09-14-2010 03:22 PM

[QUOTE=ArMakedon;70618]Линкот не ти работи.[/QUOTE]

popraveno :blush:

fyrOM 09-14-2010 07:38 PM

Thanks for the link fix DedoAleko.

This is a Google translate of the Greek text.

Promising news if true but not quite enough.

[B]Give everything to Skopje![/B]

[url]http://www.paron.gr/v3/new.php?id=58803&colid=37&catid=42&dt=2010-09-12%200:0:0[/url]

Prime Minister leaves the established national position on a name for all

Pages: 1

In severe, painful recession on the name issue of Macedonia has already agreed to the government, according to reliable information "P".

During the same information, the government of George Papandreou has already agreed to the proposal of special envoy of UN Secretary General, Mr M. Nimetz, the following points:

• name 'Republic of Vardar Macedonia.

[B]• This name will not necessarily apply «erga omnes», ie for all, so far as the Greek position is settled. We found a formula (probably has already been filed ...) in which the «erga omnes» will be ignored![/B]

[B]This was a requirement of the Skopje side, who posed as a prerequisite for any further discussion on the matter.[/B]

It is unknown at this time what formula would plasaristei here in Greece this serious backtracking from a position that was so far settled position of all Greek governments to pass.

[B]But is very difficult to pass.[/B] And of course the government will take the risk to bear enormous political cost. Please note that it is not entirely valid according to our information:

• While the proposal by Mr Nimetz meets a clear and firm position of Skopje, the Greek side has responded positively to this suggestion, since July, while FYROM has not yet answered!

This is also confirmed himself the UN Secretary General at a meeting with a delegation of the European People's Party recently. That is a comprehensive proposal Nimitz, which has responded positively to Greece, and expected the answer from the perspective of a view!

Obviously the expected visit of G. Papandreou in U.S. for the work of the General Assembly of the UN, will be used and what is at issue, the final formula is painful compromise on this critical national issue.

Especially since there are serious political and historical objections to the designation, which has been revealed for some time, apparently addicted to enter the Greek people ...

Complaints coming from politicians and historians. And there they made complaints, comes the move «erga omnes» to make things even worse.

It is characteristic of the emerging climate of acceptance that a compromise is contemptible, and the fact that President Barroso urges EU to "fix" this issue, and quickly, and NATO.

It is obvious that NATO and especially Washington, eager for a "solution" to the summit which is scheduled for November. Remember that last Sunday "THE PRESENT" had indicated that we are close to a "solution" and warned of the limits which can not be surpassed by Greece, the "red lines". But it seems that all the laborious scenes are "arranged". The consultants of G. Papandreou (visible and invisible ...) all show that they are doing "well" their jobs! And it remains to see what the reaction of the Southwest, by Ant. Samaras, other parties and especially the Greek people!

Rogi 09-14-2010 09:39 PM

Provided that the article above is true, this is what I think will take place:

Macedonian Government will be happy, their response will be 'this is good progress forward and is a good basis for further negotiation, but we are very close to a solution'.

What they will mean, is that now the Greeks have given up the 'erga omnes' position, the only thing left to discuss is the actual name itself.

This, being true, will be considered by the international community as a major concession on Greece's part, throwing the ball back on Macedonia to concede/compromise (really, let's just say capitulate) further - the only thing left to negotiate on, is the name.

Whilst I don't believe the Macedonian Government will accept 'Republic of Vardar Macedonia', they will accept a name change (which will be put to referendum) now that it is not for all use.

I think that was the goal of the Government all along, where they expected to change the name in the end, but wanted to negotiate on its' use first before they got to their real negotiating position.

I think this puts Macedonia in a very dangerous position, if they continue these stupid negotiations.

Prolet 09-14-2010 09:59 PM

Hi Rogi

Both Governments have denied this, Gruevski did warn that lots of stories will start floating around this period. It seems like you've fallen right into the trap set by the Greek Media.

DedoAleko 09-15-2010 09:17 AM

Sitel today: " Неофицијлано, во игра е Република Вардарска Македонија на кое инистира Грција и Република Македонија (Вардар) кое е поприфатливо за македонската страна.
Доколку се постигне компромис за првиот термин, Грчките медиуми објавија дека Папандреу е подготвен да ја прифати двојната формула, што значи новото име би се користело само во билатералната комуникација со Грција."

“…Off the record, on the table is Republic of Vardar Macedonia on which Greece insists and Republic of Macedonia (Vardar), which is more acceptable for the Macedonian side.

If there is compromise on the first term (R. of Vardar Macedonia), Greek media reported that Papandreou is ready to accept the double formula, which means the new name would be used only in bilateral communication with Greece….”

izvor: [url]http://sitel.com.mk/dnevnik/makedonija/republika-vardarska-makedonija-ili-republika-makedonija-vardar[/url]

Eddie_rebel 09-15-2010 10:05 AM

Грк од САД за Македонија и нејзиното име.
 
Поучно блог интервју со George Stathopoulos кој е со грчко потекло и живее во САД. За Македонија тој вели дека исто како и многу други Грци кои живеат во САД, го подржува нејзиниот засебен идентитет и историски потврдените разлики.

[QUOTE]1. Можеш ли да ни кажеш нешто повеќе за себе?

Well I am currently a student at Loyola University Chicago, and I study biology hoping to get into medical school here any maybe practice in Europe. However my true passions are literature, history, and philosophy. Also for the record I am half Greek and half Polish/French.

2. Си ја посетил ли Република Македонија? Имаш ли можеби пријатели Македонци?

Oh yes, [U]I have been to Macedonia twice. I met many people there[/U], and the Greco-EU stereotypes really aren’t true, I told many on my stance and Greek ethnicity and they were very nice to it, I have been to wonderful places like Lake Ohrid and many other small villages which hold preserved history. Also, yes I do have Macedonia friends.

3. Каков е твојот став во врска со спорот за името?

[U]Macedonia is Macedonia. Calling Macedonia the Former Yugo Republic, is like calling Greece the Former Ottoman Republic, or Poland the former Soviet Republic, or Northern Italy the former French republic and vice versa.[/U] It is simply not logical as to why you would want to add that to a name. [U]As for the history of it, it is quite clear that Greeks and Macedonians were distinct groups[/U]. Now before someone harrows me with a biased history lesson from “Macedonian propaganda” [U]I assure you that as a history major I only study the finest history from Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, and other publications and they all treat Macedonians distinct from Greeks[/U]. I believe this confusion rose with the ancient Macedonians (whom were allied with Greeks under Alexander’s reign) having so much being shared. The devotion of Aristotle to Alexander, Alexander reading Greek literature by Homer and speaking it as a secondary language, and Hellenism being a culture in Alexander’s empire. However, did the Romans not do this? Also the Egyptians to a certain point? In fact the Romans could have well done it much more than the Macedonians did, but why isn’t the Roman Empire and modern Italy called Greek? The language was simply an intellectual barrier of the time. Just like we are speaking English now, does not mean we are British.

4. Повеќето Македонци немаат ништо против името на грчкиот регион Македонија. Зошто грчката влада е против името на Република Македонија

I think Northern Greece is northern Greece, and that’s what most people in Greece call it. I never hear them saying Sparta, or Thrace, or Cretans, simply the geopolitical areas and directions in Greece. The whole “glamour” of the Greek north being called Macedonia was emphasized when this issue arose quite honestly. But for me a name is a name, even though I personally believe Macedonia deserves the name. But this naming controversy has happened in many places: Belgium, France, Ireland, Poland, Ukraine, etc. It is nothing new.

5. Некои грчки владини претставници имаат изјавено дека Република Македонија треба да си го промени името за да нема забуна со грчкиот регион Македонија. Дали “Република” пред Македонија не е доволно за да се направи разлика?

I’m trying to brush up on my history, would Republic of Macedonia and Macedonia not be the same thing? Adding Republic is simply the technicality after the government is formed just like there was a Republic of Greece after the Ottoman rule. For me Macedonia is Macedonia, and adding Republic would just be the same thing I guess. As for confusion, I think that’s a silly reason provided by the Greek government, there would be no confusion unless someone has no knowledge of common geography whatsoever.

6. Според тебе какво е генералното мислење во Грција за Македонија и спорот за името?

In Greece, there were the nationalists and the commoners. The nationalists thought that Macedonians stole their history. The commoners didn’t really care, they cared more about the economic crisis. The modern Greece reminds me too much of France, the people are picky of their rights, income, benefits, labour opportunities, they could care less about defending a name, if they did then there wouldn’t be mass protests where Greeks themselves burn the flag of Greece. I have seen many Macedonian tourists in Greece and they just went about with the rest of the tourists there, not too many people cared unless you ran into some nationalists. It’s sort of like being German or Russian and visiting Poland, some will care, others won’t.

7. Каде ти го гледаш решението за спород за името?

[U]I think eventually Macedonia will gain its name[/U], Greece has made the issue over-rated, I don’t think that a few Greek politicians are going to win over, especially when they’re losing overall support from the public every day.

8. Како Грците и Македонците од непријатели да станат пријатели?

Well what every country does, globalize I suppose. Greece and Macedonia share many cultures and struggles being in the area that they are, from ancient times to modern. Religion has also been a strong factor in the issue which has seemed to ease matters. I personally don’t see Macedonians and Greeks as enemies though, in this world nationalism has caused many more severe violence and even in Europe where many people are dying, I would consider those people true enemies. I think Greece and Macedonia just have some hassles to sort out. Basically, Greeks should stop being so nationalistic and Macedonians should seek beyond the words of the Greek government which cannot always be trusted.

9. Наместо да биде причина за расправа и ѕид кој ќе не дели, може ли античката историја да биде мост кој ќе ги спојува и двете земји, и Грција и Македонија?

Oh yes, ancient Macedonia is a true reason why Ancient Greek culture survives. Alexander did a swell job in spreading Hellenism and influencing Greco-Macedonia thought throughout the Arab world and even to the point of the Roman Empire. It was ancient Macedonia that has so much esteem to ancient Greece and there are many ancient writings that show this. The ancient history has many ties, I always imagined what people like Plato or Alexander would say if they were alive today, they would probably be surprised at the modern states.

10. Имаш ли некаква порака до Македонците?

Hm, not really. [U]I guess it’s not to get angry over what few idiots might say on a forum or YouTube video[/U]. Life is short and you should enjoy it, there will always be ignorant people to get in your way of it, even your culture. [U]Truth is no one can erase your identity if you truly want it, and this is especially true for Macedonia after having been through so much in history[/U].[/QUOTE]

ArMakedon 09-15-2010 12:34 PM

За нас е прифатливо само Македонија без придавки и додавки.

Makedonetz 09-15-2010 01:01 PM

I believe this person should stick to studying Biology as their history about our country and his few explanations construed in what he is saying. Alexsander was a warrior and military, knowing your enemy's from the inside out was crucial and that is why he made his empire vast! Hell i enjoy chinese culture and history maybe that makes me half chinese :chinese:


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