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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Carlin 01-18-2019 09:42 PM

[COLOR="Blue"][SIZE="3"][B]1) Amendments to Constitution, clarifications refer indirectly to Macedonian ethnicity[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[B]In effect, with the pretext of protecting the rights of veterans the clarification asserts clearly the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity (Macedonian people) and indeed liberation struggles that sought to unify the entire geographic area of Macedonia.[/B]

ΤοΒΗΜΑ Team | 18.01.2019

URL:
[url]https://www.tovima.gr/2019/01/18/international/amendments-to-fyrom-constitution-clarifications-refer-indirectly-to-macedonian-ethnicity/[/url]

Amidst virulent recriminations between SYRIZA and main opposition New Democracy in Parliament during debate on the confidence vote on the evening of 16 June, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras announced that Athens has received from Skopje the requisite [I][B]Note Verbale[/B][/I] that begins the countdown for the ratification of the Prespa Agreement by Greece.

Tsipras maintained that the clarifications of certain constitutional amendments passed by Skopje in accord with the agreement put to rest fears that the agreement recognises a “Macedonian ethnicity”, as New Democracy leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis claims.

“The [foreign] ministry of Macedonia further notes that in accordance with the letter and the spirit of the agreement, it is understood that the term “nationality” of the Second Party defined in Article 1 (3) (b), of the Agreement as “Macedonian/Citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia” refers exclusively to the citizenship and does not define or pre-determine ethnic affiliation/ethnicity”.

The text also notes that “the ‘Macedonian language’ refers to the official language of the Second Party as recognised by the Third UN Conference on the Standardisation of Geographical Names held in Athens in 1977, which is within the group of South Slavic languages.”

The six-page note verbale includes the four amendments to the Constitution (XXXIII, XXXIV, XXXV, XXXVI) that have been agreed to in the Prespa Agreement and key interpretive clarifications.

[B]Name change[/B]

The first of the amendments (XXXIII) is crucial as it stipulates that any reference in the Constitution to the “Republic of Macedonia” will be changed to “Republic of North Macedonia”.

However, it exempts and retains the reference to plain Macedonia in Article 36 of the Constitution which refers to the social rights of veterans of the “Anti-Fascist Struggle” and all struggles of the “Macedonian Liberation Wars”, “for war handicapped and all those who were persecuted or jailed for the ideals of a distinct identity of the Macedonian people and Macedonian identity.”

In effect, with the pretext of protecting the rights of veterans the clarification asserts clearly the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity (Macedonian people) and indeed liberation struggles that sought to unify the entire geographic area of Macedonia, including the ancient and largest party which is now part of the Greek state.

Amendment XXXIV amends the Preamble of the Constitution in such a manner as not to depict “the Macedonian people” as above the country’s many ethnic communities – Albanian, Turkish, Vlach, Serbian, Roma, and Bosnian.

There is a citation of the decisions of the Anti-fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia, the underpinning of which was the concept of Macedonian ethnicity and a yearning for the acquisition of Aegean Macedonia, the largest part which is in Greece.

It describes the legal decisions referring to the declaration of the first Assembly to the people of Macedonia.

A reference to those who expressed the will to create and independent sovereign state will be added.

Effectively, by referring to the legal decisions of the Assembly, Skopje is suggesting that the amendment refers only to the establishment of the Republic and not to the irredentist claims to what the Macedonians historically described as “Macedonia of the Aegean”.

[B]Ohrid Agreement, Albanians’ rights[/B]

So too there is a reference to the Ohrid Agreement which recognised Albanian as an official language, laid the groundwork for recognising over a dozen basic rights of the Albanian minority, and stopped a budding civil war, with the attacks of the well-armed Albanian National Liberation Army (NLA), which was about to tear the country apart.

Another key amendment (XXXV) strengthens the denunciation of traditional irredentism with the declaration that Skopje respects the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of neighbouring countries.

That replaces the current more restrictive declaration that Skopje simply has no territorial claims vis a vis neighbouring countries.

[B]Diaspora[/B]

A change that is particularly important as regards potential claims of the existence of a “Macedonian minority” in neighbouring countries is amendment XXXVI. It clarifies that in expressing concern for the status of individuals belonging to the “Macedonian people” in neighbouring countries and the diaspora Skopje will not meddle in the internal affairs or sovereign rights of these neighbours.

It would appear, however, that the reference to the “Macedonian people” abroad constitutes recognition of a “Macedonian” ethnicity.

[B]Amendment XXXVI reads as follows[/B].

“The Republic shall respect, guarantee and foster the characteristics and the historical and cultural heritage of the Macedonian people. The Republic shall protect the rights and interests of its nationals living or staying abroad. The Republic shall provide for the diaspora of the Macedonian people and of part of the Albanian people, Turkish people, Vlach people, Serbian people, Roma people, Bosniak people and others and shall foster and promote the ties with the fatherland in doing so. In doing so, the Republic shall not interfere with the sovereign rights of other states and with their internal affairs.”

The fact that the six groups to be protected are referred to by their ethnicity and not as “Macedonians” makes it perfectly clear that the phrase “Macedonian people” refers directly to ethnicity.


[COLOR="blue"][B][SIZE="3"]2) Potami MP Lykoudis confirms he will back Prespa name deal[/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

URL:
[url]http://www.ekathimerini.com/236773/article/ekathimerini/news/potami-mp-lykoudis-confirms-he-will-back-prespes-name-deal[/url]

[B]Spyros Lykoudis, a lawmaker from centrist party To Potami, confirmed, as expected, that he will back the deal signed between Athens and Skopje when it comes to Parliament for ratification.[/B]

“We have said from the beginning that the agreement has a positive main pillar because it fulfils the decades-old national effort for Macedonia to adopt a composite name erga omnes,” the political movement headed by Lykoudis, the “Reformists of the Left” said in a statement on Friday.

“We are today before an important and a chronic problem of our foreign policy whose perpetuation has always worked against us. This loose end must come to an end. Our country's position in the big European family and the leading role it can play in the region require the solution of the problem,” it added.

Ruling SYRIZA has 145 deputies, and can count on the positive votes of Deputy Citizens’ Protection Minister Katerina Papacosta, four ANEL deputies, Tourism Minister Elena Kountoura, Deputy Agriculture Minister Vassilis Kokkalis, Thanassis Papachristopoulos and Costas Zouraris and To Potami leader Stavros Theodorakis, and party MP Spyros Danellis, Spyros Lykoudis and Giorgos Mavrotas, [B]we end up again with an even wider majority in the 300-member Parliament[/B].

[B]There might be one more[/B], that of Democratic Left chief Thanasis Theocharopoulos.

Amphipolis 01-19-2019 12:43 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;178611]I know you're being sarcastic Karposh.
Sadly we are relying on trash like him to save Macedonia right now. I hope he dresses up like Alexander the Great and parades on a horse around Greece demanding this all stops!

Lord knows Macedonians won't be doing anything.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://scontent.fskg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50211488_1485433638259460_3811372270736113664_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ht=scontent.fskg1-1.fna&oh=46dace82cc9d631b97d0640c0ad9d7c9&oe=5CB4522E[/IMG]

[B]The Guy:[/B] Can’t stand this anymore. We must do something.

[B]The sofa:[/B] Me and the stool, we’re thinking of going to the demonstrations.

[IMG]https://scontent.fskg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50816661_1485421841593973_5456210394232127488_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent.fskg1-1.fna&oh=fe15a2ecd0bc13d9c005c88d93344457&oe=5CC565A6[/IMG]

Solun 01-20-2019 04:36 AM

[QUOTE=Karposh;178610]Because of the indignity it brings to the Macedonian people?
Thank you Amphipolis, that's very noble of you. See, that's how you build healthy, neighbourly relations - with some genuine respect...Good on you.[/QUOTE]

No the reason is the agreement makes no mention of the multi-ethnic nature of Northern Greece

Niko777 01-20-2019 10:46 AM

[B][QUOTE]Organizers of Sunday’s protest in Athens said they hoped to attract more than 600,000 people. Police estimated a crowd size of 60,000. But indications were that the actual number will fall well short. While organizers had said about 3,000 buses would travel from northern Greece, police said that only about 300 had arrived Sunday afternoon. -Associated Press[/QUOTE][/B]

[IMG]https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/i46OyQGFbRlE/v0/800x-1.jpg[/IMG]

Carlin 01-20-2019 01:05 PM

[img]https://i.imgur.com/YhtHVNN.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/tFODUdR.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/6nZpupB.jpg[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/teZWOgQ.jpg[/img]

[COLOR="Blue"][B]Driven by emotions and slogans[/B][/COLOR]

URL:
[url]http://www.ekathimerini.com/236792/opinion/ekathimerini/comment/driven-by-emotions-and-slogans[/url]

[COLOR="red"][I][B]‘Macedonia is Greek’ is the most powerful slogan to have emerged in the 25 years of the name dispute, bringing down one government and now threatening another, while also dividing Greece between patriots and traitors.[/B][/I][/COLOR]

For many years our main concern was to prove a given, namely the Greekness of ancient Macedonians, driven by the delusion that this would have an effect on the international stage. In other words, we thought that it would convince third countries not to recognize the Republic of Macedonia as “Macedonia” and curb accusations of chauvinism against Greece.

As a result, we flew banners featuring a quote by Greek geographer Strabo (circa 64 BC - AD 23) who said that, “Macedonia, of course, is part of Greece.” [B]The boundaries of Macedonia in Strabo’s time did not coincide with those of ancient Macedonia nor with what comes to our mind today when we hear the word “Macedonia.”[/B] Even to this day, after all, Macedonia’s boundaries remain unclear for historical reasons.

[B]The ultimate slogan, of course, is: “Macedonia is Greek.” It is the slogan that has echoed across public squares, churches and stadiums.[/B] It has been repeated at rallies organized by politicians, “national” historians and religious leaders. It has also been used by neo-fascists that wanted to mask their love for Hitler while styling themselves as untainted patriots.

This slogan brought about the collapse of a government – the conservative administration led by Constantine Mitsotakis – and poses a threat to another government today. It was also the glue that helped forge new political parties; parties that served no purpose other than fulfilling the ambitions of their leader. Like the Political Spring party, for example, established by Antonis Samaras who despite his career as foreign minister was slow to understand what was happening in the Balkans and avoided briefing his political superior (and benefactor) about his actions.

All of this is common knowledge only to those who want to know, to read and to remember; it is hardly known to anyone driven solely by emotion.

The slogan “Macedonia is Greek” has divided Greece between patriots (people who usually like to speak of “our Macedonia”) and traitors who are supposedly busy selling out everything that is Greek – including our language, ethnicity, nationality and history. [B][COLOR="Red"][U]The slogan has irredentist, expansionist undertones[/U][/COLOR] if by Macedonia we understand the entire region that was once ruled by the Macedonians, before and after Alexander the Great, and much later by the Byzantine emperors.[/B]

Not everyone understands Macedonia in this way. But [B][U]this is how the people who set the tone at mass rallies certainly understand it[/U][/B].

[img]https://i.imgur.com/Gvq2PPC.jpg[/img]

Gocka 01-20-2019 03:03 PM

Well well well, it appears the plate smashers do know what a good deal looks like when they see one after all.

60,000 is quite pitiful indeed for a country of their size with organized transport and all.

Big Bad Sven 01-21-2019 08:18 AM

i have heard that there 60k, some times have read there was 80k or 100k.

In the end who cares? 80K is still a big turn out especially when you consider it was organized rather quickly.

In Northern macedonia we have waited months for something to happen and the best we could muster was 2k, maybe 3k at most.

Even more embarrassing considering the northern macedonians had more at stake, they had EVERYTHING to lose. The modern greeks only had their egos to lose, yet they showed more heart and fight then the northerners.

Face it, in the fight for macedonia the greeks won, they deserve it. They wanted it more. Northern macedonians wanted a pay rise and entry to the EU (which may not even ever happen LOL)

Big Bad Sven 01-21-2019 08:22 AM

[QUOTE=Pelagonija;178511][IMG]https://sitel.com.mk/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/article/teaser-images/2019/january/dvnc61ixcamqmpq-205969.jpg?itok=uI9bLysw[/IMG]

Стојанче Ангелов: Отсега ќе бидете Македонци кога ќе одите на грчките плажи, а не Скопјани

[url]https://sitel.com.mk/stojanche-angelov-otsega-kje-bidete-makedonci-koga-kje-odite-na-grchkite-plazhi-ne-skopjani[/url][/QUOTE]

Firstly this guy looks like a joke, and secondly isnt it funny that his positive spin on this is that the north koreans i mean north macedonians can now go into Greece easier?

Isnt that embarrassing? Why would you still continue to go to Greece for a holiday after all of this? After all of the racist comments during protests and social media comments?

Its like going to Greece for holiday every year is a passage of right, or like going to Mecca or the vatican, a holy pilgrimage for these idiots to improve their social status on instagram.

Im sorry to say but if surrendering your name and identity just so you can go to greece for vacation once a year is a 'win' its no wonder macedonians are seen as a JOKE by everyone in the world and gets walked over.

Carlin 01-21-2019 01:00 PM

The Greek parliament will vote on the Agreement this Thursday.

Phoenix 01-21-2019 11:20 PM

[QUOTE=Pelagonija;178511][IMG]https://sitel.com.mk/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/article/teaser-images/2019/january/dvnc61ixcamqmpq-205969.jpg?itok=uI9bLysw[/IMG]

Стојанче Ангелов: Отсега ќе бидете Македонци кога ќе одите на грчките плажи, а не Скопјани

[url]https://sitel.com.mk/stojanche-angelov-otsega-kje-bidete-makedonci-koga-kje-odite-na-grchkite-plazhi-ne-skopjani[/url][/QUOTE]

Sadly this man has been reduced to being the poster boy for PTSD.


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