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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Risto the Great 09-22-2010 08:07 AM

[QUOTE=Buktop;71758]People should not have to choose between bread or rights.[/QUOTE]I agree. So let the Macedonian people eat bread and let the Diaspora fight hard for their rights until they are strong enough to defend themselves. A strong and focused Diaspora is essential. Imagine if we had an organisation that had teeth in this regard.

makedonin 09-22-2010 08:15 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;71761]Imagine if we had an organisation that had teeth in this regard.[/QUOTE]

I thought we have one already. MTO ;)

Buktop 09-22-2010 08:33 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;71761]I agree. So let the Macedonian people eat bread and let the Diaspora fight hard for their rights until they are strong enough to defend themselves. A strong and focused Diaspora is essential. Imagine if we had an organisation that had teeth in this regard.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but there is more to it than that.

makedonin 09-22-2010 09:39 AM

There is an old saying: "You can't preach about God on a empty Stomach".

That can be transfered to many things, National issues as well.

The problem about that is that, the stomach is full, but the greed of man is not to be underestimated. Once the stomach is filled, one wants more than mare survival. That is what undermines the Macedonians in the Republic in standing up and fighting for their God given rights, greed.

When somebody out of the Diaspora comes to them and says something about it, they have the same answear: "You have to talk, having more than you need there. Come to live here and than talk again". That hasn't changed till this day.

So, EU is the perfect bait, the holywood dream, and the Macedonian Gastarbeiter from Europe are those who consolidated this dream with their Rent A Car and show off. How many of them who are mare workers, who literally clean up the shit of the Europeans save money just to be able to be the hot shot for about three weeks in Macedonia. No wonder that the R. Macedonians have such high opinion of EU. Also, half of the families in R. Macedonia live with money support from relatives in the EU countries. That is a fact. They see it like a treasure chest.

It is more and more like the donkey and the corn on the stick. Running after the corn on the stick, it did not notice that someone is riding it to where he wants, and in it's greed it lost it's will.

So running after the money, they don't see the danger of the Interim accord as we do. And the government is to blame too. But that is another story.

Rogi 09-22-2010 10:21 AM

I have to disagree that the corruption in Macedonia at the time was 'caused' by the Greek embargo.

Rather, I would say that the Greek embargo was viewed as another opportunity by those select few, to make tens of millions of dollars, at the expense of the Macedonian people and the Macedonian economy - the exact same way they operated before and after the Greek embargo.

However, it neither began nor ended with the Greek embargo.

Macedonia's economy was already in dire straits before the embargo and this was largely because of the devaluation of the Yugoslav dinar, before Macedonia's independence from Yugoslavia and because of the systematic plundering of the Macedonian economy by the Government and oligarchs at the time. Unemployment in Macedonia in 1990 stood at 23.5%.

Iin 1992 the UN brought sanctions against Serbia, Macedonia's largest trading partner at the time. In Macedonia this led to unbelievable levels of inflation, extreme devaluation of the Macedonian Denar and a hefty surge in Macedonia's unemployment levels.

In 1993, the year before the Greek embargo, but during the time of the UN Sanctions against Serbia, the rate of inflation had jumped some 224%. The unemployment in 1993, was 27%. Macedonia's exports were US$1.055b. Imports were US$1.012b.


The Greek embargo then came into effect the following year, in February 1994. The UN Sanctions against Serbia were still in place. Macedonia's unemployment rate in 1994 jumped by 3% to 30%. Exports were US$1.086b and imports were US$1.271b.


The Greek embargo lasted 19 months and at the same time the UN Sanctions against Serbia were still in effect. By the time when the Greek embargo was withdrawn and the Dayton Agreement signed (which ended the UN Sanctions against Serbia) unemployment in Macedonia had been at 35%, whilst exports had gone up to US$1.2b and imports had gone up to US$1.42b (this is that increased cost in oil and new trading routes). Immediately thereafter, there would be an improvement, though bear in mind, the old trading routes via Solun were not immediately re-established.

Then in 1996, the very next year, with no UN Sanctions against Serbia and no Greek embargo, unemployment had dropped down to 31%. Unfortunately, we then saw 2 years of complete and utter corruption and plundering of the Macedonian economy, by the SDSM-led Macedonian Government at the time, with unemployment going back up to 36% in 1997. Perhaps with this alone you can see what the biggest cause in Macedonia's economy hardship has been - the Macedonian Government (and the Oligarchy) of the time.


Look at all the economy data for the period and you can work out what impact the Greek embargo had on the economy and work out how much was exacerbated by the pre-existing corruption in the Macedonian Government and work out the the actual impact of having to establish new trade routes.

In fact, even the case study in the link you provided says "Economic damages to Macedonia resulting from the blockade are estimated at around $40 million per month plus an 11 percent decrease in economic activity." Those were the costs of the 19-month blockade.

So I reiterate that it was the UN Sanctions against Serbia, coupled with the corruption of the Government and the oligarchy in Macedonia, which were the cause of Macedonia's woeful and even dire economic situation and whilst the Greek embargo certainly played a part, it was minor in comparison and certainly it was not destroying the Macedonian economy and was in fact something that the Macedonian economy could take on (if not for the UN Sanctions against Serbia at the same time), in fact inflation was coming down, exports were increasing, the currency regaining stability, etc.

If the Macedonian Government had waited a few more months, in fact just 2 more months, until November 1995 (just 2 months after the Interim Accord was signed which ended the Greek Embargo with a Macedonian capitulation on the name and the Macedonian flag) until the Dayton Agreement was signed and the sanctions against Serbia dropped, and the Macedonian economy and the denar would see a near immediate re-stabilisation, then those who signed over Macedonia's flag and name, would never have had any way to justify themselves with these stories (read: lies) about the Greek embargo forcing Macedonia's hand. Instead of waiting those 2 months for the circumstances to change in Macedonia's favour and never signing the interim accord, the Government at the time, led by Kiro Gligorov, lied to the Macedonian people and said that the Interim Accord would be gone in 3 months.



Finally, as a side note, to see that you are quoting Gerovski, is indeed quite a disappointment. There's a Mark Twain quote that always springs to mind at the mention of this charlatan, "Figures Don't Lie, Liars Figure".



[url]http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/default-en.asp?ItemID=89A26FA4B8AA8F4CA6CF243F984FF307[/url]

Bratot 09-22-2010 12:37 PM

Very valuable post Rogi!

Vangelovski 09-22-2010 06:03 PM

[quote=Buktop;71758]Both are equally as important, without natural rights, you are no more than an animal, without bread, you cannot survive, even as an animal.

People should not have to choose between bread or rights.[/quote]

Then why have you given "bread" more weight that rights? You have spent years trying to convince us that we had no choice than to capitulate because of the "devastating" economic embargo. Is this another back-flip or just a temporary cover?

indigen 09-24-2010 10:02 PM

[QUOTE=Bratot;71412]Actually,as being part of the UN is an oximoron itself while trying to cease the Interim Agreement.

[B]We did joined UN under other name[/B], not by our choice, but we continued to seek more and more contries to recognize us [B]under our rightfull name[/B] within UN, something that we can use in our advance now.

[COLOR="Red"]The "implementation" of the IA[/COLOR] as you see it, in a specific manner, [COLOR="Red"]can eliminate the blackmail to change the name as a condition for entrance in any international organization[/COLOR], [COLOR="Purple"]where after we join I don't think anyone could force us or blackmail us with excluding from the organizations if we apply for re-admission in the UN under our name Macedonia and automatically ceasing the IA.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Red"][B]It is a solution, it's not the ultimate, it's not the best, but is a option.
[/B][/COLOR]

[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Purple"]I can support any other suggestion that seems more reasonable and more realistic to achieve.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]As most of us I also look for the best solution and my view on this specific solution has not been cemented nor ideologically attached.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Offer yours, lets hear more, and lets draw the best of it![/QUOTE]

My prescription:
1. Declare null and void the lot - TR, IA and FA!

------------

B., you are like a YoYo bouncing up and down on the IA and it is hard to know where you stand!

FYI: Normal and LOGICAL people would say that IT IS AN OXYMORON to be in support of the IA (as you are) and to at the same time say you support the "END THE NAME NEGOTIATIONS CAMPAIGN" (as you appear to)!

B., what exactly do you stand for?
Give us a Yes or NO answer to the following simple questions:
1. Do you support the IA?
2. Do you support the call to "End The Name Negotiations"?
3. All of the above (an OXYMORON)?

Bratot 09-27-2010 04:58 AM

[QUOTE=indigen;72038][B]My prescription: [/B]
1. Declare null and void the lot - TR, IA and FA!

------------

B., you are like a YoYo bouncing up and down on the IA and it is hard to know where you stand!

FYI: Normal and LOGICAL people would say that IT IS AN OXYMORON to be in support of the IA [B](as you are)[/B] and to at the same time say you support the "END THE NAME NEGOTIATIONS CAMPAIGN" (as you appear to)!

B., what exactly do you stand for?
Give us a Yes or NO answer to the following simple questions:
1. Do you support the IA?
2. Do you support the call to "End The Name Negotiations"?
3. All of the above (an OXYMORON)?[/QUOTE]

I just noticed your reply on my post and [U]to be honest until I cleared it up to the both of you and Vangelovski you didn't knew that the provisional name isn't a product of the IA but came with the application for UN, [/U][B]so don't try to modify your interpretation now.[/B]

I don't support the IA in any other way than you do, but with a difference that I offered a particular solution of ceasing it while you limit yourself only to declare such position without even knowing how to do it.

If joining NATO by the provisional name only for the purpose of eliminating the blackmail is interpreted as "support for the IA" I can't see how [B]your[/B] ignoring of the membership in UN under this provisional name differentiate from your interpretation and yet applies only to me.

This will be my last polite remark on your false insinuation and remember that I'm not going to be any object of ideological query led by your absolute incompetence and irrelevance in modeling the Macedonan Cause.

As for your question, for the very last time:

1. Do you support the IA?
[B]- No[/B]
2. Do you support the call to "End The Name Negotiations"?
[B]- Yes[/B]

indigen 09-27-2010 06:08 AM

[QUOTE=Bratot;72378]
[QUOTE][SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"][B]My prescription:
1. Declare null and void the lot - TR, IA and FA![/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

------------

B., you are like a YoYo bouncing up and down on the IA and it is hard to know where you stand!

FYI: Normal and LOGICAL people would say that IT IS AN OXYMORON to be in support of the IA (as you are) and to at the same time say you support the "END THE NAME NEGOTIATIONS CAMPAIGN" (as you appear to)!

B., what exactly do you stand for?
Give us a Yes or NO answer to the following simple questions:
1. Do you support the IA?
2. Do you support the call to "End The Name Negotiations"?
3. All of the above (an OXYMORON)?
[/QUOTE]
I just noticed your reply on my post and [U]to be honest until I cleared it up to the both of you and Vangelovski you didn't knew that the provisional name isn't a product of the IA but came with the application for UN, [/U][B]so don't try to modify your interpretation now.[/B][/QUOTE]
Are you sure? I think you have me mixed up with someone else!
There is a two year gap between the two dirty deeds and in a period when I was quite active in community activities and deeply following Macedonian political events, I should think that I knew the difference between the two (which is not much as both are acts of treason and anti-Macedonian!).

[QUOTE]I don't support the IA in any other way than you do, but with a difference that I offered a particular solution of ceasing it while you limit yourself only to declare such position without even knowing how to do it.[/QUOTE]
Pure BS on your part. I would never give any legitimacy to any of the treasonous acts/deeds but you are giving legitimacy and weight for justifying the IA (something ideologically in line with Risto Nikovski), which amounts to you being an apologist for the VASSALS implementing the IA.

[QUOTE][SIZE="4"][B][COLOR="Red"]If joining NATO by the provisional name only for the purpose of eliminating the blackmail is interpreted as "support for the IA"[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE] I can't see how [B]your[/B] ignoring of the membership in UN under this provisional name differentiate from your interpretation and yet applies only to me.[/QUOTE]
I am not ignoring the TR as I advised you in previous post. The IA is also a few more EXTRA NAILS IN THE COFFIN of Macedonia.


[QUOTE]This will be my last polite remark on your false insinuation and remember that I'm not going to be any object of ideological query led by your absolute incompetence and irrelevance in modeling the Macedonan Cause.[/QUOTE]
KE? :-)))

[QUOTE]As for your question, for the very last time:

1. Do you support the IA?
[B]- No[/B]
2. Do you support the call to "End The Name Negotiations"?
[B]- Yes[/B]
[/QUOTE]

I think you really answered YES to 3 and your IDEOLOGICAL position is an OXYMORON!


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