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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

julie 04-17-2010 12:08 PM

The economist is now rife with comments from Greeks and Bulgars stating their bullshit
Buktop, what do you think of it all?

Buktop 04-17-2010 04:40 PM

[QUOTE=julie;48031]The economist is now rife with comments from Greeks and Bulgars stating their bullshit
Buktop, what do you think of it all?[/QUOTE]They were going to state their bullshit either way, whether or not the Economist wrote in favor of us or them. Look on Youtube, look on any other news site, look on blogs, there will always be bullshit, and you know what, to the average person who is neither Greek nor Macedonian, those comments look ridiculous. So really, you shouldn't even bother to care about them.

Frank 04-17-2010 06:39 PM

[QUOTE]They were going to state their bullshit either way, whether or not the Economist wrote in favor of us or them. Look on Youtube, look on any other news site, look on blogs, there will always be bullshit, and you know what, to the average person who is neither Greek nor Macedonian, those comments look ridiculous. So really, you shouldn't even bother to care about them.[/QUOTE]

Well said turn the other way to a outsider it is the Neo-Hellenes and Vulgars who look petty, small and very insecure.

They spend so much energy dont they both refuse to recgonise the Macedonian Minority becuse if they do it shakes thier Societys to the core.

And Macedonians dont be afraid of those pigs for one moment but above all please dont emulate them

kykypajko 04-17-2010 07:42 PM

[QUOTE=Buktop;48041]So really, you shouldn't even bother to care about them.[/QUOTE]

that's why nobody is willing to support us, b/c we let our racist neighbors have free reign

people DO read those comments and whether you want to admit it or not use it to form their own decisions.......

this is how pan-slavists minimize Macedonia's huge contribution to the slavic languages & culture (and label us as slavs)

this is how classical studies continue to carry on the silly notion that modern greeks are the direct decadents of everything ancient

and in the end nobody listens to us b/c our voice is NOT heard, and that's why nobody cares if we get shut out of brussel's clubs

Buktop 04-17-2010 08:18 PM

[QUOTE=kykypajko;48050]that's why nobody is willing to support us, b/c we let our racist neighbors have free reign

people DO read those comments and whether you want to admit it or not use it to form their own decisions.......

this is how pan-slavists minimize Macedonia's huge contribution to the slavic languages & culture (and label us as slavs)

this is how classical studies continue to carry on the silly notion that modern greeks are the direct decadents of everything ancient

and in the end nobody listens to us b/c our voice is NOT heard, and that's why nobody cares if we get shut out of brussel's clubs[/QUOTE]

People read them, they seldom learn anything or form opinions based on those comments.

You are from Chicago right? Let me ask you, what is the common American perception of a Greek? A stubborn, know it all, who thinks that everyone owes him something because he is Greek. No one gives a crap about this issue except for those involved. Even if we were to make a huge fuss about some lousy comments nothing would happen, no one would care and we'd still be in the same position.

On the other hand, writing letters to political figures and institutions has it's benefits, we have to market Macedonia, make it look worthwhile to those clubs, then they will give a shit. Commenting on some lousy article is not going to get us recognition.

Buktop 04-17-2010 08:20 PM

[QUOTE=Frank;48047]Well said turn the other way to a outsider it is the Neo-Hellenes and Vulgars who look petty, small and very insecure.

They spend so much energy dont they both refuse to recgonise the Macedonian Minority becuse if they do it shakes thier Societys to the core.

And Macedonians dont be afraid of those pigs for one moment but above all please dont emulate them[/QUOTE]

completely agree

Jankovska 04-20-2010 07:49 AM

This is what scares me, not Greece.

Biljana на 20.04.2010 во 12:25 напиша:
Ma kakva Severna Makedonija,koi se tie da ni go opredeluvaat identitetot.Makedonija i nisto drugo.Ovie se plasat deka ke im go barame delot sto i pripagel porano na makedonija,zatoa se plasat da prifatat da ne vikaat samo Makedonija.

2. Илина Ангелковска од Скопје на 20.04.2010 во 12:31 напиша:
Ова е историски момент за Македонија. Треба да се прифати компромисно име за државата со географска одредница Република Северна Македонија при што народот би признал како Македонци, а јазикот македонски. Со тоа би влегле во НАТО и Европска Унија и земјата ќе се препороди. Во спротивно ќе бидеме единствените кои ќе тониме во регионот на сите полиња при што деструктивните процеси ќе се зголемуваат од година во година. Затоа храбро решение за спорот со името со Грција и да се насочи Македонија во вистинска насока кон прогрес.

3. Filip-MK на 20.04.2010 во 12:06 напиша:
Ako ima Severna Makedonija,togash bi trebalo da ima i Juzna Makedonija.Pa togash da vidime dali ke bide prifatlivo za Atina banana republika.

4. artan од Skopje на 20.04.2010 во 10:38 напиша:
Odlicna vest od Atina.

Da vidime sto ke pravi Gruevski sega. Kaj nego e topkata sega.

5. Ак'л од Скопје на 20.04.2010 во 11:41 напиша:
Нашите политичари како и досега ќе ја закопаат главата во песок, нема да даваат коментари на грчките изјави кое тоа име НИЕ треба да го имаме, или воопшто тие изјави демек нема да стигнат до нивните уши. Можеби збор два ќе слушнеме при отварање на некоја нова економска зона.

6. igor од skopje на 20.04.2010 во 13:29 напиша:
Ovaa vest e dobra samo za naivni luge,Republika Makedonija nema nikogas da se smeni!!!

7. mk од gr на 20.04.2010 во 13:29 напиша:
Vreme e da se opametime i go prifatime ovoj predlog.

Za stabilizacija i progresivnost na Balkanot treba da se stavi tocka na extremizmot,nacionalizmot shovinizmot itn.

Nemojte da dozvolite politicarite da vi go matat pametot.Upotrebete go zdraviot razum koj sekoj covek go poseduva ama koj na zalost ne go primenuva.

Republika Severna Makedonija !!! Samo napred!

8. Makedonec од Bitola на 20.04.2010 во 10:59 напиша:
Nie Si Imame ime gospodine. Makedonia .Barajte si za vas Sto ne znaete koj ste sto ste i zatoa sakate da go zemite imeto i idintitetot.I da vi gi dajme tie nema nikogas da bidat vasi.Go zedovte znameto sto naprajvte .Kaj ke go veete Seto ova Pripaga samo na vistinska Makedonia .Zatoa postavetego naseto zname Da gi gree nasite Makedonci.Vo SOlun.

9. Diki од Svedska на 20.04.2010 во 13:40 напиша:
Samo MAKEDONIJA i nisto drugo!

A vie koi se zalagate za "severna Makedonija", ne ste Makedonci!

10. Македонец од Македонија каде и да е на 20.04.2010 во 10:52 напиша:
Почекајте уште малку, ќе не молат да се викаме Македонија. :D

11. aaaa од SKOPJE на 20.04.2010 во 10:32 напиша:
i jas sum zadovolen... menjajte brzo

[url]http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=122246[/url]. Sega mi ide da ja najdam taa Ilinka i da i plesnam dva samara i da ja pratam doma so pesna

Rogi 04-20-2010 08:21 AM

Jankovska, it's A1 news you are quoting. Those comments should be taken with a grain of salt.

Not only are the bulk of those comments done by the same people paid to write comments on sites like A1 (from the political headquarters of a certain party), but they're also the comments of the very marginal and very insignificant fifth column.

All polls show that over 90% of the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, in fact well over that, would not support any name change whatsoever, whilst even the Albanians in Macedonia are divided on whether they would support any name change.

The EU carrot that has been dangled in front of Macedonia for so long, has lost its appeal now that the visa liberalisation is in full force and the pressure to join the EU has quite significantly faded and this has been further amplified by the economic instablitiy in the EU in more recent times... the European Union is quickly losing that idealistic image that it once had inside Macedonia, which saw so many Macedonians hold the EU on such a high pedestal.

Furthermore, the fearmongering argument of the fifth column about an instability in Macedonia no longer has any legs among the overwhelming majority of the population. There are no real threats to Macedonia at this stage that can make things worse than they are, and most are seeing this to be the case; this is why the 'hope' (according to polls) of a better future in Macedonia remains high.

Bill77 04-21-2010 09:42 PM

Well ive just been blocked from posting with no reason given. There are maggots there that cursed me (a good sign of defeat) and they are still alowed to post. Amazing.

I love there tactics though,they spam with the same post over and over and over to cover posts that destroy theres. I reported there personal attacks, Racist coments, reposting the same post, which are all against the rules. Do you think anything was done about it? nooooo

Mabe ive been banned because i folowed the rules and reported the rule breakers. I must be a trouble maker for doing so. Hmmmm next time i should not depend on rules and fair play.

Dimko-piperkata 05-15-2010 01:24 PM

The so-called "Name Negotiations" MUST be ended now!
 
[quote]In spite of what has been said and done and the warnings and pleadings of so many Macedonian activists to Macedonian authorities to end the so-called "name negotiations" with Greece, the comical tragedy still continues. Almost two decades have now passed and Macedonians continue to endure this humiliation! So the question here is how long are Macedonian authorities prepared to go on bending backwards to please Greece?

Why are Macedonian authorities allowing "other people", "outsiders" and particularly Macedonia´s enemies to dictate to them what they should or should not call their own country? This is unacceptable!

One country demanding a name change of another is not only unprecedented; it is chauvinistic! This kind of behaviour is unacceptable! That is why there are international laws in place to protect countries like Macedonia from countries like Greece! Unfortunately, Macedonian authorities, to this day, have not made use of such laws. They have chosen the "negotiating way" instead, which is unacceptable and will NEVER yield satisfactory results, only capitulation for the Macedonian side!

It is time for Macedonian authorities to investigate these laws and use them to end their "negotiations" with Greece! It has to be made clear to everyone involved that it is illegal to pressure and blackmail Macedonia into changing its name and on that note simply end the "negotiations"!

It is high time that Macedonian authorities explain their situation and formally complain to the United Nations for putting Macedonia into this predicament where it is forced to "negotiate" a change of its own name! This is illegal and a breach of international law!

If Macedonian authorities are not familiar with international law then they must seek professional legal advice from international lawyers and file a formal complaint against the United Nations for putting Macedonia in this predicament!

Macedonian authorities must be made aware that Greece is "not really" interested in Macedonia´s name, as history has proven. Accepting that, Macedonian authorities must then look for and expose the "root cause" of Greece´s behaviour.

If Greece is "not really" interested in "Macedonia´s name" then what is Greece "really" interested in? This is another issue Macedonian authorities must resolve and bring out into the open!

Another issue Macedonian authorities need to deal with and respond to is the advice they receive from "outside" sources. Such advice cannot be simply ignored; it must be weighed, analyzed and responded to. Macedonian authorities must explain to those "giving the advice" what is and is not "possible" for Macedonia, which brings us to the next issue!

If Macedonian authorities are "not prepared" to change "the Republic of Macedonia´s name" then why have these "negotiations" with Greece?

(a) For no reason at all and to waste time and money?

(b) Have no idea why; don´t have a clue what is going on?

(c) Secretly planning something and don´t want the Macedonian people to know?

One can see how people can become suspicious if there is no clear and logical reason provided for why the "negotiations" are taking place. You can see how this can make anyone a nervous wreck!

Continuing the "negotiations", especially with no end in sight, will only help Greece because Macedonia has nothing to gain by "negotiating" away its own name!

If Macedonian authorities are prepared to "change Macedonia´s name" then first they need to assess and publicize the consequences, fallout and damage from such a change and then announce their recommendations; i.e. what is an "acceptable" change and what are the tradeoffs for it! It does not make any sense to "negotiate" over something without clearly defining targets, limits and tradeoffs of what it is that is being negotiated. Then again if Macedonian authorities are not prepared to accept any change, then why "negotiate"? As elected or appointed representatives working on behalf of the Macedonian people, Macedonian authorities are obligated to keep the people informed!

Given all this, what will Macedonia and the Macedonian people gain if they choose to "change their country´s name", especially under these extreme circumstances, to please one country? Greece, after all is the only country in the world that is demanding this change. Responsible Macedonian authorities must make it clear to the Macedonian people that if there is a sacrifice what exactly will this sacrifice be for!

Is it for Macedonia to gain entry into the E.U. and NATO?

Let me say that, for all practical purposes, Macedonia is already in NATO; it is in fact the fourth largest troop contributor to NATO missions! When will Macedonian authorities remind NATO of this and ask them to acknowledge and accept the Macedonians for who they really are. If they cannot, then is it really worth making sacrifices for this organization?

And what of the E.U.? If the E.U. is such a great place to be part of then explain to me why so many countries, Greece being the first, are in such dire straits ready to collapse economically? Only fools would want to board a sinking ship, wouldn´t you agree?

We can blame the world for not understanding our problems and we can blame our imposition on Greece and Bulgaria. But most of our problems, I believe, we must shoulder ourselves. The world does not understand what is happening to us and the position we are in, with regards to Greece and Bulgaria, because we have hardly made the effort to publicize our plight. It seems we are afraid to tell the world the truth because deep inside we believe nobody will understand and we fear that if we speak of our rights as Macedonians too much or too loud we will be further tormented and more harm will come to us.

What is wrong with telling the truth and telling it loud and clear? After all, the whole crux of our problem stems from one thing; Macedonians keeping the truth to themselves. The root of our problem with Greece and Bulgaria is the Macedonian land that Greece and Bulgaria occupy. As long as Macedonians exist they are a threat to Greece and Bulgaria losing those lands. And as long as Macedonians keep that secret to ourselves, Bulgaria and Greece will continue to deny our existence and torment us to no end. If that secret however comes out, Greece and Bulgaria will have no reason to deny us anything except for our lands!

Here are some facts to consider;

Macedonians over the centuries have fought to free themselves and to create a Macedonian state by the name "Macedonia", which has existed from prehistoric times. Macedonian struggles for freedom are well documented in history and should be familiar to every Macedonian. Clearly this demonstrates that a Macedonian consciousness existed and has fought for the creation of a Macedonian state!

In 1903 the entire Macedonian population rose up as a nation and fought in a national uprising against the Ottoman Empire, which clearly demonstrated Macedonian desires for freedom and self rule. Many Macedonians willingly fought and sacrificed their lives in the hope of creating a free and independent Macedonia!

In 1912, 1913 Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria invaded, occupied, partitioned and annexed Macedonian lands knowing full well that the Macedonian people, only a decade earlier, tried to free themselves and create their own Macedonian state without success. Almost one century later in 1991, the Serbian annexed part of Macedonia became the sovereign and independent Republic of Macedonian. This clearly demonstrates that the Macedonian consciousness still exists and the Macedonian people are still striving to recuperate what once was theirs!

Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria, after annexing Macedonian territories, committed atrocities against the Macedonian people; including forcibly assimilating many Macedonians. This demonstrates that a Macedonian consciousness existed while Macedonia was partitioned and that Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria made attempts to forcibly extinguish it!

In its attempts to "Hellenize" Macedonia, Greece went a step further and renamed all place names and peoples´ names and banned the Macedonian language from use. This clearly demonstrates that Macedonians exist in Greek occupied Macedonia and have their own language and culture.

In spite of Macedonians existing and being recognized worldwide and Macedonian organizations being registered everywhere in the world since the 19th century, Greece and Bulgaria to this day still maintain that Macedonians do not exist. This clearly demonstrates that Greece and Bulgaria cannot accept the fact the Macedonians exist!


Both Greece and Bulgaria historically have shown desire to possess all of Macedonia, and, through their denials of the existence of the Macedonian people, are attempting to achieve two objectives;

(1) Continue to possess Macedonian territories that they are already illegally occupying (instead of giving them back to the Macedonian people) and,

(2) By attempting to destabilize the Republic of Macedonia (through fake disputes) they are both hoping to annex more Macedonian territories.

Greece has not given up on the "Megali Idea" or of possessing all of Macedonia, and Bulgaria has not given up on the "San Stefano" dream of a Greater Bulgaria which includes all of Macedonia. These are dangerous desires not only for the Macedonian people but for the entire world, as history has shown before!

Historically Greece was never really interested in Macedonia´s name and as MHRMI and AMHRC have put it; "The nonsensical name dispute was initiated by Greece in order to continue its policy of non-recognition and persecution of its large Macedonian minority. Former Greek Prime Minister Constantine Mitsotakis admitted in 1995, ´My main aim was to convince the Republic (of Macedonia) to declare that there is no Slavomacedonian minority in Greece. This was the real key of our difference with Skopje´."

MHRMI and AMHRC also went on to say;

"Ironically, Greece claims exclusivity to the name Macedonia, but it was not until 1988 when Greece realized that independence for the Republic of Macedonia was imminent, that it renamed ´Northern Greece´ to the ´Province of Macedonia´.

Consequently, Greece imposed an economic embargo that crippled Macedonia's economy in 1992, it vetoed Macedonia's entry into NATO in 2008, and it has continued its decades-old policy of eradication and forcible assimilation of its Macedonian minority.

However, NATO and the European Union allow its member-states to be handcuffed by Greece's xenophobic policies. Despite overwhelming support for Macedonia's NATO membership, Greece was permitted to compromise regional stability and use its veto power against Macedonia for one reason - the name dispute.

Instead of reprimanding Greece, the Western world insists on a ´solution´ to the name dispute. Would any other country negotiate its own name?

The name dispute is akin to the US state of Georgia demanding that the Republic of Georgia change its name or the Belgian province of Luxembourg demanding that Luxembourg change its name.

Furthermore, any proposals to change Macedonia´s international, bilateral, or constitutional name, or to add ´qualifiers´ such as ´Democratic´ or ´Northern´, would change Macedonia´s identity everywhere and are completely unacceptable.

How can the European Union justify the violation of its own principles by asking Macedonia to change its name?

Greece is the only country that objects to Macedonia´s name. There is no need to find an international or bilateral ´solution´ based on one country's irrational and nationalistic fears. Unfortunately, by continuing the negotiations, Macedonia is telling the world that it is willing to compromise. Because of this, even countries that have recognized Macedonia would use any new name that is reached in a bilateral agreement. Macedonia can end the name dispute now and the calls for compromise by ending negotiations over its own name.

MHRMI and AMHRC call on:

Macedonia to stop the negotiations immediately and tell the international community that it is not willing to compromise its name and identity.

The rest of the international community, and EU in particular, to join the 127 countries that have recognized Macedonia, including 4/5 UN Security Council members, and to finally put an end to the irrational name dispute and immediately recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name."

How well do "outsiders" understand Macedonia´s problems?

Most outsiders, including foreign politicians and high ranking diplomats, don´t know much about Macedonia and its problems with Greece and Bulgaria. Also what little they do know comes from propaganda propagated by Greek and Bulgarian lobbyists.

Most of what "outsiders" know about the so-called "name dispute" is the "Greek spin" on the issue which claims that it is "a dispute between two nations wanting the same name". Mainstream media always quote the "Greek position" on this calling it a "dispute" when in fact it is not!

If it is a dispute then it is totally one sided and has nothing to do with Macedonia´s name but has everything to do with the Macedonian identity. Most people don´t know that since Greece occupied Macedonian territories in 1912 it had many chances to "use" the name Macedonia but as MHRMI and AMHRC have pointed out "Ironically, Greece claims exclusivity to the name Macedonia, but it was not until 1988 when Greece realized that independence for the Republic of Macedonia was imminent, that it renamed ´Northern Greece´ to the ´Province of Macedonia´".

In fact, by accepting to "negotiate" what cannot be negotiable, Macedonian authorities have legitimized Greece´s claim to the name. As a result, Macedonians feel "deeply hurt" when outsiders ´unwittingly" support the Greek side. But what Macedonians have not realized and cannot understand is that outsiders only know the Greek side of the story. In reality "outsiders" don´t know the Macedonian side because Macedonian authorities have not done their job well to publicize it! And if outsiders don´t know what is really going on then how can we blame them for doing us wrong?

That is why it is very important for Macedonian authorities to pull away from these bogus negotiations and begin an information campaign to let the world know what is really going on with Greece.

It is very important for Macedonian official channels to immediately react and respond to every comment and every press release, such as the one from Philip Reeker for example, and make the Macedonian side of the story well known.

With regards to the "name dispute" Macedonian authorities must make it very clear to everyone why Macedonians cannot accept a name change and must settle on "Republic of Macedonia" as the official name of their country!

For once let us separate facts from fiction; Greece and Bulgaria took Macedonian lands away from the Macedonian people. This is a fact! And this is the crux of the entire problem between us and our neighbours!

There will be no peace and our enemies will not cease to torment us until all the facts of what has been done are out in the open, well understood and acknowledged by the world. The onus, to make this happen, is on the Macedonian authorities who as representatives of the Macedonian people not only have the right but are obligated to serve the Macedonian people and work for their interests! So please stop "negotiating" away our God given name and start working for our rights!

Practical or not, achievable on not, harmful or not, when it comes to the situation with our neighbours, Macedonians must learn to dispense with political correctness and start telling the truth the way we see it! Macedonians need to start telling the world their side of the story!

Macedonians must also learn to stand up for ourselves and vigorously respond, without exception, to all those who belittle and trivialize our predicament; something we have not done well in the past!

One last thing regarding the so-called Treaty of Friendship Bulgaria offered Macedonia. One of the pre-conditions in this Treaty, I believe, is that Macedonia should give up its right to pursue human rights of the Macedonians living in Bulgaria? How can this be a "treaty of friendship" when it calls on Macedonian authorities to do harm to their own people? This is not a "treaty of friendship". This is a stab in the back!

Other articles by Risto Stefov:

[url]http://www.maknews.com/html/articles.html#stefov[/url]

[url]http://www.americanchronicle.com/authors/view/3446[/url]

You can contact the author at [email][email protected][/email] [/quote]
[url]http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/156481[/url]


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