Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue
 

i am sure many of you have seen this article, but i stilll think it deserves s thread on here.

Greece is plugged in the Matrix, Macedonia should too



By Gorazd V.

September 4, 2008



[url]http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3219/1/[/url]



Macedonia , as a country, is in negotiations with Greece for the past 17 years. No Government Official in Skopje when asked “what is it that they are negotiating, and why” can give you a straight answer.

As the years went by, the negotiations wondered off into different directions, mostly due to Greek psychosis.
For the past 17 years, the Greek Government has been winning in all talks and meetings, by a long shot. Macedonia changed its constitution, the flag.
Sure, 124 countries recognized Macedonia as Macedonia, but this is in no way our victory simply because those countries have middle school level history knowledge and know which is which.
Macedonia was caught off guard at least 5 times when countries said they would recognize the constitutional, not the UN name.

Some lobbying came in place when the VMRO party came to power, less than 20 months ago. Prior to it, it was zero, none.


Why is Macedonia stuck in a loosing battle?

First and foremost, Macedonia is willing to negotiate their heritage with Government and people of very questionable character. People who claimed the Phoenician Philosophers and Mathematicians as “Greeks” and refugees claiming to be “Greeks” or “Greek Macedonians” (no such thing) who ironically arrived from various (European, Asian, African) regions to Greece 40-50 years ago.

Athens ' Agents (over 20 of them) in Skopje , going by the name of “Political Experts” for A1, Utrinski Vesnik, Dnevnik, Spic… constantly publish stories of Macedonia being ‘doomed’ if it doesn’t change the name! Fear is very powerful and the oldest trick on this ignorant planet. It is used to control and influence masses on many levels. (cough: war on terror, global warming, Russia , Nato….)
Second, is the brainwashing. Macedonia has never been good at it, while Greeks are masters, and kudos to them for that!


Why is Greece so successful?



Ever since 1913, the Greek Government has plugged its citizens and new comers into the Matrix.

In the Matrix movie (most of you have seen it), the Morpheus character says to Neo, "The Matrix is a system Neo, and that system is our enemy. When you are inside it what do you see? The minds of the very people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are part of that system and that makes them our enemies. You have to understand that most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many are so hopelessly dependent on the system, they will fight to defend it".
It is all but impossible to unplug Greeks from their Matrix, because they cannot or will not see that it exists, even when one presents compelling evidence that it does.. This coupled with the fact that they have been indoctrinated from kindergarten into believing that they are above all, “Greek greatness” (cried hysterically for outside help even in their civil war), so much for the 'greatness part'.
If anyone points out to their flaws, their lies, which the Macedonian Government has done on dozens of occasions, it causes a reflex `knee jerk` reaction which in it's uniformity of response is startling.
In effect, the whole Greek nation (spoke Albanian and Turkish until 1800’s) is locked into a state of mass denial and self delusion, or a condition known as `cognitive dissonance`. Simply put, this means to be in a state of inner conflict, when one's belief system and experience do not corroborate each other.
The effects of this inner disharmony have to be addressed either by accepting that one's belief system is false, or by finding a way to justify the original belief. Most Greeks opt for the second recourse.
It doesn’t matter what kind of evidence Macedonia presents against Greece and thousands of arguments it has against it. Greece wouldn’t budge. It can’t budge, because if it does, it will destroy the ‘Greek myth’ like a deck of cards. A myth that Greece had spent 60+ years building.

If you tell “Greeks” they are Vlachs, Pomaks, Roma, Albanian, Turkish, and show them undisputable evidence they moved to the area in the last century, spoke Turkish, Roma, Albanian and not Koine (it was introduced when Greece was created as a country), they’d violently shake their head and tell you they were “Greeks”.
The individual Greek believer must have social support. It is unlikely that one isolated believer could withstand the kind of disconfirming evidence I and others have specified over the years. If, however, the believer is a member of a group of convinced persons who can support one another, I would expect the belief to be maintained and the believers to attempt to proselyte or to persuade non-members that the belief is correct.
In other words, when one's erroneous and discredited belief system, whether it be social, political or in our case historical is shown to be evidently so, there is a clambering for safety in numbers. For the more there are to prevaricate and justify, `move the goal posts` if you will, then the greater the probability that the belief system, however discredited will remain the `received wisdom` of the masses.
This describes Greece exactly. Unlike other nations whose citizens in my experience, are able to perceive and recognize not only the positives in their societies, but the negatives also, Greeks have been so inculcated with a sense of self righteous superiority (ironically the people of the Balkans shouldn't, but do look down on 'Greeks'), that they in `parrot fashion` continue to herald unquestioningly whatever their Government serves them. And their Government serves them a lot.
Each Greek knows and understands his/her place in the Matrix.
This belief system, this Matrix is responsible for what we see today in Greece .
This is precisely why Macedonia should put an immediate halt to the negotiations. You shouldn’t negotiate with someone plugged and or managing the Matrix. You shouldn't speak to individuals, groups, countries who name their leaders "Supreme President". Macedonians should ask for a certificate before any talks with Greece 's representatives. Something along the line "Not Insane". Homer Simpson had one.

Is Macedonia negotiating change of name for NATO? I certainly hope not, NATO was instrumental in starting the 2001 conflict. NATO played a major role in destabilizing Macedonia , this has been widely established by Governments, local and foreign journalists, citizens, Macedonian soldiers, the Secret Service.

Is Macedonia negotiating change of name for EU? I certainly hope not, EU is a dictatorship, the worst thing that has happen to Europe , since ' Europe ', and will soon fall apart.
Think twice of Putin’s offer. “Recognize Abkhazia and S. Ossetia and you will be known as Macedonia at the UN.” If Putin says it, I believe him, he just shot a tiger. In all fairness, he seems to be the only one who respects international law.

Macedonia can go to the UN and do a roll call, a vote off. Macedonia would win. Macedonia can take Greece to Court, and would win. The only way Macedonia will not win is by ‘negotiating’. Time for Macedonia to utilize dozen American Macedonian international legal experts residing in the US who have offered help, but were ignored.

It's like the matrix in some ways.

New identity cards for new Greeks that come with free historical membership to the ancient Greeks.

Anyone who wants it can join, those who don't want it have no choice.

[QUOTE]The only way Macedonia will not win is by ‘negotiating’.[/QUOTE]
Exactly right.

By not negotiating, one will be seen as stubborn and uncooperative.

The EU does not favour such attributes.

Only Branko Crvenkovski has understood this.

Crvenkovski is also the biggest Mafioso in the Balkan.

If negotiations isn't in your charter, then how do you propose we settle the issue and we can both move forward?

Both sides believe they're right in the opposite end of the spectrum obviously.

Something needs to be done.

P.S WoW the ex- network 54 boys have sure come a long way. :p

What can you do with a people that hate anything that is Greek??

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;678]What can you do with a people that hate anything that is Greek??[/QUOTE]
I don't.
I like them and many of their things.
Why do they flinch when I call myself Macedonian?
When they start liking my Macedonian "anythings", we will have a solution.
So who is arrogant and spiteful truth bearer?

So Risto, apart from your obvious solution which simply will not happen, do you have any other ideas?

I don't mind if you call yourself Macedonian. Go for it, providing you keep in the side of your mind that Greek and Macedonia is mutually intelligible, linguistically, geographically, ethnically & culturally.

All I read in the various forum s from you guys is hate,I see that you people defaced our flag call us nazis and racists??!!
You claim today's Greeks are not connected with the ancient ones yet you cannot expalin to us how did the language survive the ages??If Greece was inhabited by Arvanites,Slavs,Vlachs and Turks how did the language maintain its standing?

[QUOTE=Areianos;710]So Risto, apart from your obvious solution which simply will not happen, do you have any other ideas?

I don't mind if you call yourself Macedonian. Go for it, providing you keep in the side of your mind that [B]Greek and Macedonia is mutually intelligible, linguistically, geographically, ethnically & culturally.[/B][/QUOTE]

Areianos, why do you keep parroting this nonsense?

Please tell me since when the above highlighted part is true.....

Risto the Great
[QUOTE]Exactly.
Let the Greeks bring their best game here.
I (amongst others) have the fortune of having very simple facts that they have extreme difficulty answering.[/QUOTE]

So we are waiting for yr tough questions Risto can we start??

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;714]All I read in the various forum s from you guys is hate,I see that you people defaced our flag call us nazis and racists??!!
You claim today's Greeks are not connected with the ancient ones yet you cannot expalin to us how did the language survive the ages??If Greece was inhabited by Arvanites,Slavs,Vlachs and Turks how did the labguge maintain its standing?[/QUOTE]

Could you please explain how the 2.5 million Greeks in the Greek part of Macedonia are connected with the Ancients.

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;720]Risto the Great


So we are waiting for yr tough questions Risto can we start??[/QUOTE]
I don't have questions, I have facts.
Feel free to ask me questions though.

[QUOTE=Daskalot;722]Could you please explain how the 2.5 million Greeks in the Greek part of Macedonia are connected with the Ancients.[/QUOTE]


It's called language my northern friend.Our language has survived the ages unlike other languages that have dissapeared.Greek was spoken right throughout the Balkans yet by the 10th century it disapeared in the northern part of the Balkans.In the southern part though it survived how is this so?How can a language survive if the people who speak it as their mother tongue are not Greek??

[QUOTE=Daskalot;718]Areianos, why do you keep parroting this nonsense?

Please tell me since when the above highlighted part is true.....[/QUOTE]


Well, why isn't it? What do you mean keep parroting? I was born in Macedonia and have visited it on countless occasions. That was not parroting nor false statement, it is the reality. Feel free to visit Thessaloniki, Veroia, Kavala, Kozani, Pella for yourself to see what I exactly mean.

[QUOTE=Daskalot;722]Could you please explain how the 2.5 million Greeks in the Greek part of Macedonia are connected with the Ancients.[/QUOTE]

We have never claimed pureness, but even if we had 5% Greek blood we are still Greeks and a connection would exist.

In all societies the majority always rule eventually.The slavs who came from the East overwhelmed the other people like the Bulgars,Paeonians,Avars and pushed the Illyrians out and the dacians into their corner of today's Romania.

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;727]It's called language my northern friend.Our language has survived the ages unlike other languages that have dissapeared.Greek was spoken right throughout the Balkans yet by the 10th century it disapeared in the northern part of the Balkans.In the southern part though it survived how is this so?How can a language survive if the people who speak it as their mother tongue are not Greek??[/QUOTE]
Gold Medal!
Why not adopt French now. It sounds nicer.
None of my people spoke Greek before the mind-meld.
Metaxas had more to do with it than your mother's tongue.
I am sure you would agree that fascism has its place in the world.

As much as Tito forced people to change their names from OV to SKI so what's the difference Risto??

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;750]As much as Tito forced people to change their names from OV to SKI so what's the difference Risto??[/QUOTE]
Oh I am not sure.
My people come from modern Greece.
My ancestors names finished in SKI and O.
But it is interesting how you compare what Tito allowed versus what has happened in Greece over the last few decades.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;784]Oh I am not sure.
My people come from modern Greece.
My ancestors names finished in SKI and O.
But it is interesting how you compare what Tito allowed versus what has happened in Greece over the last few decades.[/QUOTE]

Where was [B]Tito[/B] when Pulev[B]ski[/B] wrote his Macedonian dictionary in [B]1875[/B]?

My great great grandfather who fought the Ottomans was Jankovski, the komiti called him Jankula. Hm that is before Tito.

Are you obviously refering to the Vlach called Gjorgjija Pulevski by the way he died in Sofia where he resided in his last years........Why would a proud "Macedonian" who advocated a free and independant Macedonia would go and live in Sofia in the heart of the arch enemy?

And by the way there is only a handfull of "vskis" before 1944......

Lets see what else we find about Georgi Pulevski.....

[I][QUOTE]Pulevski was also active as a military volunteer in anti-Ottoman insurgencies at various times in his life. In 1862, he fought on the Serbian side as member of the [B]Bulgarian Legion [/B]against an Ottoman siege at Belgrade. Later, during the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878, which led to the independence of Bulgaria, he was leader ("voijvod") of a unit of volunteers fighting on the Russian-Bulgarian side,taking part in the Battle of Shipka Pass. After the war, he went to live in the [B]newly liberated Bulgarian capital Sofia[/B]. Also he expressed his regret about the missunification between Principality of Bulgaria and Macedonia in a request to the Bulgarian Parliament. Later Pulevski received a government pension in recognition of his service as [B]a Bulgarian volunteer,[/B] until his death in 1895. It have to be pointed, there were a number of occasions in which [B]Pulevski was regarded as ethnic Bulgarian [/B]by Serbian, Russian and Bulgarian authorities.[/QUOTE][/I]

Wikipedia is not a credible source

Credible or not why would a proud Macedonian go live & die in Sofia Bulgaria??

[quote=Truth Bearer;972]Credible or not why would a proud Macedonian go live & die in Sofia Bulgaria??[/quote]
Why would that matter at all? Their were proud Macedonians and VMRO members in Austria and other areas.......Your point is?

Then lets see what type of books did the great man write...

In 1880, Pulevski published Slavjano-naseljenski makedonska slognica rečovska ('Grammar of the language of the Macedonian Slavic population'), a work that is today known as the first attempt at a grammar of Macedonian. In it, Pulevski systematically contrasted his language, which he called našinski ("our language") or slavjano-makedonski ("Slavo-Macedonian") with both Serbian and Bulgarian. All records of this book were lost during the first half of 20th century and only discovered again in the 1950s in Sofia. Owing to the writer's lack of formal training as a grammarian and dialectologist, it is today considered of limited descriptive value; however, it has been characterised as "seminal in its signaling of ethnic and linguistic consciousness but not sufficiently elaborated to serve as a codification",

Finally, in 1892, Pulevski completed the first Slavjanomakedonska opšta istorija (General History of the Macedonian Slavs), a large manuscript with over 1700 pages.

I don't understand why he's calling his ethnicity Slavo Macedonian.Do you agree with this or not?

Wikipedia not credible.....Plus this "questions" are in the wrong Thread and section to ask.

I mean as one of the founding fathers of a seperate identity why does he call you Macedonian Slavs??All the books he'
s written refer to Macedonian Slavs is this correct or is wiki wrong?

Well not really as Daskalot posted the man's name so I checked it out and came up with the facts.I'm seeking answers please enlighten me if you can sir?

[quote=Truth Bearer;976]I mean as one of the founding fathers of a seperate identity why does he call you Macedonian Slavs??All the books he's written refer to Macedonian Slavs is this correct or is wiki wrong?[/quote]He wrote that as a linguistic group,[B] not as a ethnic group[/B].


Founding fathers of a seperate identity? Is this the same like the Bavarian King Otto for the "Greeks"....?

I would wait for Daskalot to answer the questions..... He knows alot more then me on these subjects.

No but Pulevski was probably one of the first that promoted a seperate identity...

Gjorgjija Pulevski (Bulgarian: Георги Пулевски; Macedonian: Ѓорѓи Пулевски, 1838 – 1895) was a writer and revolutionary from Macedonia, known today as the first author to [B]publicly express the idea of a separate Slavic Macedonian nation [/B]distinct from Serbs and Bulgarians, as well as a separate Macedonian language.

Pulevski was born in 1838 in Galičnik (today Republic of Macedonia, then under the rule of the Ottoman Empire) and died in 1895 in Sofia, the capital of what was then the newly independent Principality of Bulgaria. Trained as a stonemason, he became a self-taught writer in matters relating to Macedonian language and culture.

That tells me nation not language Misirkov do you see what I mean?

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;980]No but Pulevski was probably one of the first that promoted a seperate identity...

Gjorgjija Pulevski (Bulgarian: Георги Пулевски; Macedonian: Ѓорѓи Пулевски, 1838 – 1895) was a writer and revolutionary from Macedonia, known today as the first author to [B]publicly express the idea of a separate Slavic Macedonian nation [/B]distinct from Serbs and Bulgarians, as well as a separate Macedonian language.

Pulevski was born in 1838 in Galičnik (today Republic of Macedonia, then under the rule of the Ottoman Empire) and died in 1895 in Sofia, the capital of what was then the newly independent Principality of Bulgaria. Trained as a stonemason, he became a self-taught writer in matters relating to Macedonian language and culture.

That tells me nation not language Misirkov do you see what I mean?[/QUOTE]

Stay focused, you are trying desperately to say something but it sounds like verbal diarrhea. I did not realise Pulevski came from Galicnik. They have traditions that pre-date modern Greece by thousands of years.

Pulevski was self-taught because nobody encouraged the separate identity. I find it interesting you bring him up. Shall we compare him to Makryannis? You know, someone who wrote in the vernacular. The differences are compelling. Greeks celebrate the person who spoke in the local Turkish/Greco vernacular. They forget that he was no particular literary genius, that he in fact was famous because he sounded like Mum and Dad in the good ole days. Pulevski on the other hand was far more capable and his significance was far greater than Wikipedia will allow you to believe.

If you want to go back to Misirkov, remind me again how significant greeks were in Macedonia as a collective group of people.

No what I'm trying to understand is that do you agree with Pulevskis theory as in being Macedonian Slavs??I mean no disrespect here but in all his books he refers to you all as that.I'm just asking you guys do you agree??

Truth Bearer, stop the lies you misinformed parrot, your deluded presumptions need to be medically examined.

[B][I]........do you agree with Pulevskis theory as in being Macedonian Slavs??I mean no disrespect here but in all his books he refers to you all as that[/I].[/B]

No, we don't agree, because what you say is incorrect. Pulevski refers to his people and language at times as Slavjano-Macedonians, at other times as simply Macedonians. In one of his books he clearly states that the reason why the -Slavjano- prefix is added is due to the Macedonian language being a descendant from Old Slavonic, therefore it is supposed to be a mark of honouring its history and glory. I will repeat, other times [U]he makes reference simply to Macedonian(s)[/U]. The fact that you try and pick something as insignificant as that reveals a sad and pathetic motive for sliming about here and other Macedonian forums, I could go on about how Makrigianni the great 'Greek' hero referred to himself and people as Romans many times, but I don't feel the need to waste my time on some guy with a Fez who fancied looking more like a Turk.

[B][I]It have to be pointed, there were a number of occasions in which Pulevski was regarded as ethnic Bulgarian by Serbian, Russian and Bulgarian authorities.[/I][/B]

Your reasoning doesn't add up, didn't you refer to him as a Vlach before? Do you have proof to support that lie? Do you have any proof at all to support the quote above which you cite from Wikipedia where the Macedonian Pulevski is regarded as an "ethnic Bulgarian" by Serbian, Russian and Bulgarian authorities? You think that living in Sofia or being a volunteer in a foreign army fighting for freedom makes one a constituent of the relevant nation? He fought in Serbia and Bulgaria and as a Russian volunteer against the Turks, [U]he also fought in Macedonia as a Macedonian for Macedonian freedom[/U]. You had Russians, French, English and Germans all fighting the Greek war of independence for you against the Turkish troops while the musket-armed peasants you call your 'Hellenic' heroes today were too busy robbing each other and slaughtering unarmed Muslims (Many of whom were Greek-speakers) and Jews.

[B][I]As much as Tito forced people to change their names from OV to SKI[/I][/B]

That lie has been done to death. That many people in Macedonia within Yugoslavia began to adopt such a suffix for their names in no secret, but, where is your evidence that Tito himself forced anybody to change their names? Do you have some sort of document, a decree, anything that stipulates such a clause in order to be a member of the Macedonian republic? Half of the people in the Republic of Macedonia still have OV/EV names, there are other places where you can take this joke of an argument and it will be given the time of day, here we aim to iron out such comedic lies that have long been spread on the internet by people such as yourself.

[B][I]Greek was spoken right throughout the Balkans yet by the 10th century it disapeared in the northern part of the Balkans.In the southern part though it survived how is this so?How can a language survive if the people who speak it as their mother tongue are not Greek??[/I][/B]

Are you trying to claim that today's Croats, Bosnians and Serbs are descendants of 10th century native Greek-speaking people? Or are you trying to manipulate some facts into making readers think this? The Greek language was for centuries what English is today, that is why it survived, just like English will survive in Scotland, Ireland, and other places more distant. Greek was also the main language of Eastern Christianity (initially) and hence the East Roman Empire, it was also the language of trade so Mustafa, Wilhelm, Branko and Giovanni could sell peanuts to each other in a common tongue.

Let me make it clear to you that I don't doubt the existence of Greek-speaking pockets of people in the Balkans, but history records Albanians in Attica and most of 'old Greece', it records Latin-speaking Vlachs in Thessaly, Epirus and further south, it records Slavic-speakers from Morea (Peloponnese) - No, it was not them who propagated the Greek language and aided in its survival, it was largely the East Roman Empire and its desire to consolidate its lands and bring them into the same political fold. It had nothing to do with "ethnic Greeks" or "ethnic Hellenes", if it did, you would have long ago shown evidence of this, but given the fact that hardly any if any emperors of the East Roman Empire were actually from 'old Greece', I fail to see the significance where it concerns the modern nation which now calls itself 'Hellenic'.

Confusing? Sure is, your people should have remain with their 2,000 year old Roman identity, then at least you could make a few more plausible claims rather than the far-fetched myths you do these days.

[QUOTE]Are you trying to claim that today's Croats, Bosnians and Serbs are descendants of 10th century native Greek-speaking people? Or are you trying to manipulate some facts into making readers think this? The Greek language was for centuries what English is today, that is why it survived, just like English will survive in Scotland, Ireland, and other places more distant. Greek was also the main language of Eastern Christianity (initially) and hence the East Roman Empire, it was also the language of trade so Mustafa, Wilhelm, Branko and Giovanni could sell peanuts to each other in a common tongue.[/QUOTE]

No these people came to the Balkans around the 6th century A.D.I was refering that Greek was spoken before their arrival and since they became the majority the Greek language dissapeared and Slavic bevcame the lingua franca of the region.Now since many Slavs came all the way south to the Peloponese they didn't sustain their language and in disapeared due to the greater majority Greek speakers in Greece......
You see SoM unlike Englisgh that will survive because English is today's lingua franca thjrough schooling,education,computers,TV,movies,internet by globalisation.How did Greek survive when there was noone of that back then?How diud Latin dissapear when the powers at the time spoke Latin??The Venetians,Genoans the powers of trade throughout the sea??

[QUOTE]Let me make it clear to you that I don't doubt the existence of Greek-speaking pockets of people in the Balkans, but history records Albanians in Attica and most of 'old Greece', it records Latin-speaking Vlachs in Thessaly, Epirus and further south, it records Slavic-speakers from Morea (Peloponnese) - No, it was not them who propagated the Greek language and aided in its survival, it was largely the East Roman Empire and its desire to consolidate its lands and bring them into the same political fold. It had nothing to do with "ethnic Greeks" or "ethnic Hellenes", if it did, you would have long ago shown evidence of this, but given the fact that hardly any if any emperors of the East Roman Empire were actually from 'old Greece', I fail to see the significance where it concerns the modern nation which now calls itself 'Hellenic'. [/QUOTE]

So again I ask SoM how come the language Greek dissapeared throughout the Byzantine regions after the fall of Constantinople yet Greek survived in Greece??On top of that hopw can a language surve when there were no schools nor any form of education in the Balkans.