I have far more concerns about what Rann does with his mouth than other parts of his body!

I'm interested in hearing more about this confidential meeting with the Multicultural Affairs Minister that Meto flew in from Washington for.

There definitely should have been a reference to AMHRC's formal action against Rann on this matter, to add strength to argument.


Reading it though, stand back for a moment and as a Diaspora it does seem like a solid image we're presenting, having people fly in from Washington and having formal legal action, as a diaspora I think we are really raising the bar in terms of the image we project - and in terms of being listened to or ignored, your image wieghd heavily.

Take some of the positives, we've become too accustomed to the problems within and jumping right on them.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;35993]Maslinka, welcome.
You made some very controversial statements in relation to the Rann/UMD matter that I can't support. I am of the understanding that a pitiful Government Grant was up for grabs and our silly little community in Adelaide was awaiting the outcome of that before expressing their disgust. The grant never apparently eventuated and the timing of an appropriate response was spectacularly deficient.

This is my understanding of the matter and a clear expression of my disgust in the direction it more appropriately should be focused. Further, the fact that Meto was in Adelaide at the time the issue escalated was nothing more than an excellent opportunity to amplify the significance of this matter. I have no problem with the UMD expressing their discontent. I have many more problems with the Adelaide community wasting their time on a matter of such significance.[/QUOTE]

RtG, I'm calling it how it appears to be from someone sitting on the outside. OK, so it wasn't manufactured by UMD. I'm happy to take that back and apologise for my misconception, but nonetheless the article only mentions UMD and their demand for an 'unconditional apology' as a result of being 'slandered'. So UMD what are YOU as a Washington DC based organisation going to do about?? Our community has been slandered. What will be your action???? Will you hold Rann accountable??

UMD, you clearly are using Australian funds to bank roll your activities. Is holding Premier Rann one of those activities?? Are you going to re-invest those funds back into the Australian community by holding Rann accountable?

[QUOTE=Rogi;35999]There definitely should have been a reference to AMHRC's formal action against Rann on this matter, to add strength to argument.


Reading it though, stand back for a moment and as a Diaspora it does seem like a solid image we're presenting, having people fly in from Washington and having formal legal action, as a diaspora I think we are really raising the bar in terms of the image we project - and in terms of being listened to or ignored, your image wieghd heavily.

Take some of the positives, we've become too accustomed to the problems within and jumping right on them.[/QUOTE]

Rogi, solid yes, but toothless. Just words. If UMD had made reference to AMHRC's action, that it was collaborating with AMHRC, this would have been the strongest message we could have sent as a community.

How disappointing!! I can tell you that the chances of getting the article syndicated would have been much better had there been statements about AMHRC'S proposed action.

I'm going to join the AMHRC. They deserve support for their action.

This is simply one article.


Just the very begining.

I agree maslinka, that you should join AMHRC and support them!
So should everyone else :)

[QUOTE=Rogi;36004]I agree maslinka, that you should join AMHRC and support them!
So should everyone else :)[/QUOTE]

Will do when the next paycheck comes in.:001_smile:
Looking at their website though, its not very flash!
AMHRC - what's going on with your website?

[QUOTE=MP_MK;36003]This is simply one article.


Just the very begining.[/QUOTE]

Some constructive criticism for you MP_MK:

Given that you have what appears to be indepth knowledge (designing?) the media campaign, for future article, media statements, TV spots etc, might it be the strongest foot forward for the community if the AMHRC and UMD's efforts are represented together and that UMD are not solely thrust into the limelight.....to be fair, isn't it in all of our interests that AMHRC are presented [I][U]at least [/U][/I]equally with UMD as an NGO in Australia doing something about this, not just UMD as a Washington based organisation.

I have to say that AMHRC's omission was a pretty basic mistake and apparent to all. Don't get me wrong, I think the 'international' angle is good, but the picture is not complete. Lets face it, it will be left to the AMHRC (not UMD) to try to hold Rann accountable - they need the financial support for activities that affect our community and hence the exposure.

MP_MP - I look forward to the fruits of your labour over the next little while. It will be nice to see this issue brought to the attention of responsible media. Can you let us know in advance of when we can expect things to come out?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
THE COMMUNITY SHOULD BE MADE AWARE THAT THE [B][U]AMHRC FUNDED BY ITS MEMBERS[/U][/B], WILL FIGHT THIS. THEY NEED THE MONEY.

Welcome to the MTO Maslinka, I agree with several of your assertions and sentiments. The UMD won't mention the AMHRC in such an article at such a time, lest Meto loses some 'shine'. I have come to accept nothing from those that are incapable of properly admitting to their flaws.

[QUOTE=Prolet;35970]SOM, A sto misles Grcine sto pravat?? Identitetine kako na nashite chlenovi im gi objavuvaja?? Jas ne velam da se zatvorime samo da pazime sto zborvame tuka, oti drugite ne snimat mozi i asio gleda od kaj znajme?[/QUOTE]
The whole 'forum' and Meto's schedule have been made public for a while now. Are you implying that 'Slav' Kostoff cut RtG off because somebody would get information on us? Ridiculous. He cut off RtG because he knew that RtG would ask the questions that Meto would have trouble with, you know, the real questions about UMD's integrity. Prolet, you are starting to remind me of an overly superstitious old lady, like I said before, ease up your scare-mongering, nobody here was born yesterday, we know what you are saying and nobody is asking for details that cannot be readily accessed through public and community records in any case. The information for Macedonian eyes only will be for Macedonian eyes only, nobody is spilling any beans here.

[QUOTE=Homer MakeDonski;35814]Draw to be put forward
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X86MWXAGQY&feature=related]YouTube - Makedonija 2001 - Bitkata za aracinovo Eve ja vistinata[/url]
Indeed all *Srankovisti hangers-on are traitors to the Macedonian cause.

Hoping that is UMD state you are pointing is about political demagogy only , and your criticism will have valuable results[/QUOTE]

"UMD" [Tuesday, 25 August 2009]:"...Macedonia actually is the only state in the region where ethnic minorities are granted the same status as the majority demographic in the state. The 2001 Framework Agreement ended Macedonia’s civil conflict and stipulated that Macedonia’s state policy towards minorities would be among the most liberal in the region...."

It is clear the FA is used by "UMD" to promote Macedonia in a "positive" light and thus is an endorsement of it. Furthermore, it is a JUSTIFICATION (legitimization) of the UCK (and their backers) terrorist activities and an exoneration of the TRAITORS, e.g. Boris Trajkovski, Branko Crvenkovski, LjuBcho Georgievski and Co., who signed and enacted into law (via amendments to the Constitution/Ustav) the CAPITUALTIONIST 2001 Framework Agreement.

No SOM, Risto asked legitimate questions im talking about this forum not face to face talk.

You keep mentioning this Slav guy who is he and what does he stand for?? Is he related to Hari Kostov by any chance? I agree that nobody is spilling beans here i just dont want our opposition to get their hands on our information.

[QUOTE=maslinka;36016]Some constructive criticism for you MP_MK:

Given that you have what appears to be indepth knowledge (designing?) the media campaign, for future article, media statements, TV spots etc, might it be the strongest foot forward for the community if the AMHRC and UMD's efforts are represented together and that UMD are not solely thrust into the limelight.....to be fair, isn't it in all of our interests that AMHRC are presented [I][U]at least [/U][/I]equally with UMD as an NGO in Australia doing something about this, not just UMD as a Washington based organisation.

I have to say that AMHRC's omission was a pretty basic mistake and apparent to all. Don't get me wrong, I think the 'international' angle is good, but the picture is not complete. Lets face it, it will be left to the AMHRC (not UMD) to try to hold Rann accountable - they need the financial support for activities that affect our community and hence the exposure.

MP_MP - I look forward to the fruits of your labour over the next little while. It will be nice to see this issue brought to the attention of responsible media. Can you let us know in advance of when we can expect things to come out?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
THE COMMUNITY SHOULD BE MADE AWARE THAT THE [B][U]AMHRC FUNDED BY ITS MEMBERS[/U][/B], WILL FIGHT THIS. THEY NEED THE MONEY.[/QUOTE]



I agree Maslinka.

I was not responsible for that media piece transpiring.

Yes I can and will, as media pieces are secured moving forward.

I may be missing the forest for the trees here, and I'll probably be tarred and feathered for asking this, but, what do you envision the problems with the prefixes democratic or independent being?

EB, I have the tar and feathers waiting for you.
The fundamental problem is people are telling us how we should name ourselves. Think it through and tell me if Macedonia can stand shoulder to shoulder with nations that insist on treating us this way. If we accept this, we deserve everything else they mock us with.

Further, I cannot be Macedonian from where my people come from. It simply does not work and will only become more difficult as the name is something further from Macedonian. As a friend of mine stated .... "I am a socialist .... why would I want to be a Democratic Macedonian!".

I would much prefer "Sexy Macedonian" than any of the UMD suggestions, but ultimately I only want "Macedonian".

Thanks RtG. There is no doubt that we find ourselves in a situation that, in this day and age, no nation deserves to be in, but, I fail to see how these appendages can be construed as treacherous for neither implies any racial or geographical meaning.

[QUOTE="El Bre"]I fail to see how these appendages can be construed as treacherous for neither implies any racial or geographical meaning.[/QUOTE]
I thought RtG's response covered on that:
[QUOTE][B]The fundamental problem is people are telling us how we should name ourselves. Think it through and tell me if Macedonia can stand shoulder to shoulder with nations that insist on treating us this way. If we accept this, we deserve everything else they mock us with.[/B][/QUOTE]
Have you thought about this in more depth El Bre? If it is 'democratic' at the UN, what is it at the world cup, or some other international competition, or an event in Greece or a state sympathetic to Greek racists? You expect our people to have three jersey's and name tags handy?

[QUOTE=UMDiaspora.org;35930]Mr. Vangelovski, are you referring to The Australian advertisement? We suggest you get your facts straight before spreading outright lies and false allegations about UMD. UMD has never plagiarized anything, so your assertions are quite serious offenses and slander.

UMD, the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney, the Macedonian Community of Adelaide and South Australia, and other organizations co-sponsored an advertisement in May 2007, not November. The advertisement was published in The Australian the same day of former Greek Prime Minister Karamanlis' visit to Australia, and not in response to some Melbourne Greek rally.

The advertisement was originally initiated by UMD, and primarily championed by Ljupco Stankovski of the Australian Macedonian Weekly, a very strong supporter and member of UMD. It was Mr. Stankovski that contacted the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney to join UMD in this initiative, and MOCS paid half of the funds needed for the advertisement. Whereas, Mr. Stankovski raised the other half through the various other organizations who donated and some individuals including himself. UMD authored/drafted the original text, and the various organizations sponsoring the advertisement had additions, and the final text was composed, which was used for the advertisement (the drafting committee did an excellent job). It was agreed upon by all participating sponsoring organizations. UMD never refused to put its name on the advertisement and you make false claims.

Here is something that may peak your interest about the advertisement written by the Pan-Macedonian Federation of Australia against UMD:

[url]http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html[/url]

On the same day of the advertisement, UMD issued a press release as well regarding the visit of Prime Minister Karamanalis, of which Mr. Vangelovski was the spokesperson for:

[url]http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/210/1/[/url][/QUOTE]


I must come back to this because you have caused confusion between the earlier advertisement in [B]The Australian[/B] and the later advertisement in[B]The Age[/B] and [B]Sydney Morning Herald[/B], as well as between UMD as an organization that co-published an advertisement in [b]The Australian[/b] and Meto Koloski as an opinion writer in [b]The Age[/b].

The earlier advertisement in [B]THE AUSTRALIAN[/B] was co-published by the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia (a key name you seem to be overlooking completely) and UMD. The collaborative effort was suggested to me by Ljupco Stankovski (both a UMD member and a long-time collaborator and supporter of the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia). UMD did not SPONSOR the advertisement with any funds of its own. Yes, the Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney paid for more than half of that ad too (as it did for the later ads in The Age and Sydney Morning Herald), while the money Ljupco Stankovski helped raise was from other organization-members and supporters of the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia (including himself).

The first draft of the advertisement in [b]The Australian[/b] was sent to me by Tom Vangelovski. It underwent extensive changes after days of incessant email debates about its contents, in which myself and UMD’s Australian members - Tom Vangelovski, Ljupco Stankovski, Igor Zvezdakovski and Ordan Andreevski - took a distinctly different approach to the 'diplomatic' approach that the UMD leadership from the USA pursued, especially in relation to the use of the logo with the 16-Ray Sun and the reference to the division, occupation and repression of Macedonia since 1913. When we ran out of time for debates, although we had made some inroads towards a mutually acceptable text, the UMD leadership from the US still insisted that the text Vangelovski (as UMD's Australian head) and I agreed on was too 'undiplomatic'. That's when I say said something like: "We are the ones funding this and we will have final say as to what it looks like. If the UMD guys from the US don't like it, we'll publish it without them."

The UMD's name was ultimately included under the advertisement in [b]The Australian[/b] because the Aussie UMD members wanted it to be. Some time later, a certain UMD leader from the US made statements on Maknews to the effect that he didn't want to enter collaborative activities with the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia and Macedonian Orthodox Community of Sydney again because I had allegedly threatened to withhold funding for the ad in [b]The Australian[/b] if I didn't get 'my' way. That feeling on his part probably explains why neither he or any other UMD member from the US made any contributions when the Association of Macedonian Communities in Australia later published advertisements in [b]The Age[/b] and [b]Sydney Morning Herald[/b], in response to a Greek racist rally held in Melbourne.

Vangelovski's version of events regarding the advertisement in [B]The Age[/B] is pretty much spot on. You were out of line in accusing him of lying. You should either substantiate your accusations or make a retraction and apologize.

If you have a problem with Vangelovski questioning whether the UMD flyer's reference to an opinion piece by Meto in [B]The Age[/B] might be a dishonest attempt to claim credit for the AMCA’s advertisement, you could simply disclose which opinion piece in [b]The Age[/b] the UMD flyer refers to. Why is that so hard?

[QUOTE=El Bre;36055]Thanks RtG. There is no doubt that we find ourselves in a situation that, in this day and age, no nation deserves to be in, but, I fail to see how these appendages can be construed as treacherous for neither implies any racial or geographical meaning.[/QUOTE]

Any act that sells out the NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY and HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS that generations of Macedonians have struggled for is treacherous. The name of a SOVEREIGN state and the ethnic and national identity of human beings are matters of sovereign and free (i.e. not under duress) decision-making, and the universally codified human right to FREE self-determination and FREE self-identification. These are not matters to be determined in negotiations with or under threats or blackmail by a foreign hostile nation, unless that nation can legitimately claim that the Macedonian people are exercising their sovereignty and human rights in a way that conflicts with the sovereignty and human rights of others.

If you don't appreciate how fundamental and sacred the concepts of sovereignty and human rights are, and what they mean, you should do some research and deep thinking about what it is that generations of Macedonian liberation fighters and activists have struggled for and why the Republic of Macedonia declared sovereignty and independence to start with.

[QUOTE=julie;35859]with unemplyoyment in the Republic at 39% currently?[/QUOTE]That figure does not accurately represent the current employment situation in Macedonia. Many either do not report being employed to avoid taxes, or they make money through undocumented transactions. Either way, accurate data is very difficult to obtain.

By the way Vangelovski, you need to start separating the comments of board members, and official UMD policy. That is a very simple thing that you need to understand.

[QUOTE=indigen;36030]"UMD" [Tuesday, 25 August 2009]:"...Macedonia actually is the only state in the region where ethnic minorities are granted the same status as the majority demographic in the state. The 2001 Framework Agreement ended Macedonia’s civil conflict and stipulated that Macedonia’s state policy towards minorities would be among the most liberal in the region...."

It is clear the FA is used by "UMD" to promote Macedonia in a "positive" light and thus is an endorsement of it. Furthermore, it is a JUSTIFICATION (legitimization) of the UCK (and their backers) terrorist activities and an exoneration of the TRAITORS, e.g. Boris Trajkovski, Branko Crvenkovski, LjuBcho Georgievski and Co., who signed and enacted into law (via amendments to the Constitution/Ustav) the CAPITUALTIONIST 2001 Framework Agreement.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget the citizens who had a chance to stop it but did nothing... I think we should hang the whole country for being traitors.

[QUOTE=Buktop;36105]Don't forget the citizens who had a chance to stop it but did nothing... I think we should hang the whole country for being traitors.[/QUOTE]
At least hang the people that influenced policy first.
Where in the USA should we go first?

Buktop, are you serious?

So if Obama and Biden say that America is an illegal occupier in countries all over the world, the American public are supposed to keep those comments separate from the official policy of the American government? You can't be serious. What would people think of them and their integrity, along with that of their administration? Probably the same thing that people think of Meto and the UMD.

What people need to start doing is make these so-called 'leaders' who speak on our behalf in an official capacity, accountable for their own actions and words. Keep em' honest, as we say. I am sure you have seen the Adelaide clip Buktop, again Meto has shown his acceptance of the 'democratic' prefix. It's a done deal, he has sunk himself.

[QUOTE=Buktop;36104]By the way Vangelovski, you need to start separating the comments of board members, and official UMD policy. That is a very simple thing that you need to understand.[/QUOTE]

WTF are you smoking Buktop...?

[QUOTE=El Bre;36055]Thanks RtG. There is no doubt that we find ourselves in a situation that, in this day and age,[COLOR="Red"] no nation deserves to be in[/COLOR], but, I fail to see how these appendages can be construed as treacherous for neither implies any racial or geographical meaning.[/QUOTE]

I thought you answered the question yourself brother...

Its the act of 'imposing' something against our wishes that is totally unacceptable, regardless of the perceived connotation of the said 'appendage'...whether it be construed harmless or otherwise...it shouldn't be 'acceptable' to us and we must fight any adoption of it.

To accept such an appendage would create the grounds to entertain other 'acceptances' and where does one put a stop to it once the ball starts rolling...?

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;36106]At least hang the people that influenced policy first.
Where in the USA should we go first?[/QUOTE]
Start with the US foreign departments.

But are you saying that we should excuse the indifference of those who had the opportunity to prevent capitulation? Are you suggesting that those who could have made a difference, but didn't, are any less culpable than those who played a direct part in the capitulation?

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;36110]Buktop, are you serious?

So if Obama and Biden say that America is an illegal occupier in countries all over the world, the American public are supposed to keep those comments separate from the official policy of the American government? You can't be serious. What would people think of them and their integrity, along with that of their administration? Probably the same thing that people think of Meto and the UMD.

What people need to start doing is make these so-called 'leaders' who speak on our behalf in an official capacity, accountable for their own actions and words. Keep em' honest, as we say. I am sure you have seen the Adelaide clip Buktop, again Meto has shown his acceptance of the 'democratic' prefix. It's a done deal, he has sunk himself.[/QUOTE]
First of all you cannot compare the UMD board of directors with the United States government. UMD board decisions are reached by consensus, not by a single person like in the US.

Every person is entitled to an opinion, and while you may have highlighted several which you do not agree with, it is the overall board which votes on the policy and therefor individual opinions are not to be misconstrued as UMD policy.

You have every right to keep em honest, I would just like it to be done in a more constructive manner, not in the way it has transpired. This whole forum has become a UMD witch hunt. The thread about Mr Rann is very disappointing to say the least. It is also very revealing, and I never cease to be amazed at the lengths some go to in the name of "keeping UMD honest" especially when the topic at hand had nothing to do with UMD, but rather having a Macedonian do an interview with a piece of shit.

I saw the Adelaide clips and I have to say you are overreacting, he was justifying his [I]personal [/I]acceptance of the Democratic modifier [I]at the time[/I], he was not advocating that the entire diaspora accept it, but that it was more palatable than Yugoslav as a representative term internationally.

[QUOTE="Buktop"]First of all you cannot compare the UMD board of directors with the United States government. UMD board decisions are reached by consensus, not by a single person like in the US.[/QUOTE]
Buktop, your objectivity has suffered in the defence of the UMD, greatly. Are you now saying that all decisions of the US government come from a single person? Help me understand mate.
[QUOTE].......while you may have highlighted several which you do not agree with...[/QUOTE]
Hang on, I thought you shared my understanding on some of them, you are still of the same opinion, aren't you?

Did you see Meto re-affirming his acceptance of the 'democratic' prefix in Adelaide a few days ago?

How could they have made a difference? Did we not go over the circumstances of this event and the 'coincidental' US recognition of Macedonia about the same time?

[QUOTE=Phoenix;36114]I thought you answered the question yourself brother...

Its the act of 'imposing' something against our wishes that is totally unacceptable, regardless of the perceived connotation of the said 'appendage'...whether it be construed harmless or otherwise...it shouldn't be 'acceptable' to us and we must fight any adoption of it.

To accept such an appendage would create the grounds to entertain other 'acceptances' and where does one put a stop to it once the ball starts rolling...?[/QUOTE]


Well said Phoenix, only the Macedonians have the right to name their country, their language, themselves.. forced to do otherwise is wrong on so many levels

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;36120]Buktop, your objectivity has suffered in the defence of the UMD, greatly. Are you now saying that all decisions of the US government come from a single person? Help me understand mate.

Hang on, I thought you shared my understanding on some of them, you are still of the same opinion, aren't you?

Did you see Meto re-affirming his acceptance of the 'democratic' prefix in Adelaide a few days ago?[/QUOTE]
United states policy is primarily shaped by the president, initiatives are made on his say so. He has a board of advisers, but ultimately he has the final say as to what direction his government takes.

I personally do not support a name change, and I agreed with you that the idea was not something that I could support either, I am still of that same opinion, but that is not to say that Meto cannot have his own opinion, and his own reasoning for reaching that opinion.

See my above post edit, sorry it took me a little while to edit the post.

[QUOTE=Buktop;36105]Don't forget the citizens who had a chance to stop it but did nothing... I think we should hang the whole country for being traitors.[/QUOTE]

How many Macedonians died in 2001, now you tell me what did they die for? So ONA can build spomenici na nivnite heroi and past and present gov to allow everything because they were and still are forced by the West and America. What did they die for? Be careful what you say because there are people on this forum who lost close ones in 2001. If we are hanging should we start with you? I mean you didn't fight, you didn't defend and now you have a problem with the ones that did?

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;36121]How could they have made a difference? Did we not go over the circumstances of this event and the 'coincidental' US recognition of Macedonia about the same time?[/QUOTE]
We went over the circumstances, and we came to the conclusion that if the citizens had valued their rights a bit more, they would have made the right decision and voted in the referendum. You think US recognition persuaded common Macedonians to not vote? The average Macedonian citizen doesn't give a shit what country recognizes them, the 25% of the country that actually got off their asses and voted were the ones who actually stood to lose something, the other 75% were more concerned with SDS taking their jobs (which is a stupid notion to begin with) and the Prime minister Hari Kostov, who threatened to resign, who gives a shit if he would have resigned? Is party allegiance more important than the rights of Macedonians or the territorial integrity of Macedonia? All they had to do was vote to make a difference.

[QUOTE=Jankovska;36130]How many Macedonians died in 2001, now you tell me what did they die for? So ONA can build spomenici na nivnite heroi and past and present gov to allow everything because they were and still are forced by the West and America. What did they die for? Be careful what you say because there are people on this forum who lost close ones in 2001. If we are hanging should we start with you? I mean you didn't fight, you didn't defend and now you have a problem with the ones that did?[/QUOTE]Well said Jankovska.

And how can we blame those that are left in the dark and unaware with what hapens behind closed doors. Those that suposedly are aware, how can we blame them when the Mak government and other Mak groups (not naming names) spin and use scare mongering in to accepting situations.

[QUOTE=Jankovska;36130]How many Macedonians died in 2001, now you tell me what did they die for? So ONA can build spomenici na nivnite heroi and past and present gov to allow everything because they were and still are forced by the West and America. What did they die for? Be careful what you say because there are people on this forum who lost close ones in 2001. If we are hanging should we start with you? I mean you didn't fight, you didn't defend and now you have a problem with the ones that did?[/QUOTE]
Did I say I had a problem with the ones who did? I said I have a problem with the ones who didn't. I wasn't old enough to fight in 2001, did you vote in the 2004 referendum? Was your home town given to the control of Albanians? Does your family now have to learn Albanian just to be able to survive in your home town? Does your family have to worry about discrimination in their own fucking country?

If you didn't vote in the 2004 referendum why didn't you?

Don't take that tone with me young man. Macedonia was given to the albanians because the United States of America and the EU gave it to them, not you or me. Orders were given and had to be followed. I do blame Trajkovski and the gov but not the people, everyone went to fight in 2001, but you can not send soldiers to fight but not giving them the right to attack or defend themselves. The West caused it and our gov betrayed us in every way, but whatever you do, stay away from judging the people.
I didn't vote because I was in the UK. My parents wanted to vote but the voting room in the gimnazija was shut. You go and explain to me why?
I will not allow anyone here to bash at the Macedonian people, especially if you don't live in Macedonia. Leve them the hell alone, if you not gonna help them stop blaiming them for everything. Afterall if they all moved away like we did Macedonia would be long gone.
Buktop the Serbs fought for kosovo, did they get to keep it?

[QUOTE=Buktop;36128]United states policy is primarily shaped by the president, initiatives are made on his say so. He has a board of advisers, but ultimately he has the final say as to what direction his government takes.



[/QUOTE]


You fail to understand that the political figures who are in front of the cameras are just puppets.

[QUOTE=Buktop;36133]You think US recognition persuaded common Macedonians to not vote? The average Macedonian citizen doesn't give a shit what country recognizes them, ...[/QUOTE]

If that's your view, why do you think the UMD leadership in the US feels a need to constantly stress that the USA is Macedonia's "best friend"?