Funny stuff. At least we now have the reason why the Greeks can't send more troops.

UMD is a tool of Western foriegn policy.

Western foriegn policy for Macedonia. Western institutions such as NATO and the E.U completely back Greece and the terms that Greece has put to the Macedonians.

Western structures such as the Interim Accord, the Ohrid Framework agreement ...etc, which are anti-Macedonian, are fully backed and supported by UMD.

Just a sample of what UMD are thinking. Here is the President commenting about "the reality" of the Ohrid Framework Agreement. Speaking as though the Macedonians hands are tied and have no choice. It is indicative of UMD unable to take a principled stand or position against current anti-Macedonian institutions and structures in the West. It also gives a clue about the attitude in the Macedonian parliament.

[quote] Apparently, nobody in either party wasstrong enough to convince the leadership to not support the OhridFramework Agreement. I do not think the Ohrid Framework Agreement isjust, and I think several things are totally not right. The OhridFramework Agreement is praised by Macedonian politicans, [B]and I have heard [/B] Gruevski and Milososki numerous times referring to the multi-ethnic greatness of Macedonia. [B]Unfortunately, it is the reality today[/B]. As far as Bitove, Bitove has done great things for the Macedonian cause.See [url]http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/264/51/[/url] This is one instance. TheBitove Family deserves utmost respect from Macedonians worldwide. [/quote]

As for UMD and WMC ?

UMD members have taken a stand against Todor Petrov for no sound or logical reason, other than they see his organization as competition or occupying "space" they want to take over.

It is no secret that UMD have been lobbying hard for Macedonia to continue negotiating, and for Macedonia to join Western institutions such as the E.U and NATO.

UMD has been unable to take a principled defence of our interests in significant political fields today. It is in fact a hard line backer of various Western institutions (E.U and NATO) and various Western structures (Interim Accord and Framework Agreement). The former Western institutions fully back Greece and the terms set by them, and the latter Western structures, are simply anti-Macedonian. UMD are behind these anti-Macedonian institutions and structures of the West, fully.

Given Meto Koloski's statements that we have no choice but to change our name.

Here:

Meto Koloski on Macedonian Media Monitor
[url]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MacedonianMediaMonitor/message/10565[/url]
13 March 2008

[quote]We have to be realistic, [B]Macedonia if it wants to join NATO and EU it
has to join under a modified name[/B] for those organizations ONLY. [/quote]


And here:

On Meto Koloski on ZMR
(at 1:38 minutes - [url=http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivd4m8MLstk]YouTube - ZMR United Macedonian Diaspora - Macedonia Name[/url])

[quote]..."we feel that perhaps [B]a political modifier such as Democratic might be more acceptable[/B] only for international use to get rid of this erroneous name the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"... [/quote]

UMD are the whores of the West.

UMD have not rejected the negotiations, nor have they taken a principled position against Western institutions and structure that deny us. They have done the opposite. They have fully backed this Western position against Macedonia. UMD president has even said we need to change our name.

I can think of far better strategies against these Western institutions and structures, against Greeece.

A start might be to defend our right to exist, to guard against foriegn interference in our internal affairs, and to accept as a starting point that the Macedonians have a legal and moral right to reject the E.U, NATO, the Interim Accord and Ohrid Framework Agreement - because they do not respect our right to exist.

To pursue our remedies only where that is possible. For example the E.U and NATO can dictate any terms they like - so why are we wasting our time with these organizations ? The United Nations on the other hand has violated its own articles. In this case we can use the articles and rules of the U.N institution against it.

I have made the case before that Meto and Mitreski at UMD have too much of a personal stake, or too much to lose personally (in terms of their careers), to change UMD policy. This explains why they have been unwilling to take a principled position against these Western institutions and Western structures - because their entire foreign policy objective is based around Macedonia negotiating and Macedonia entering these institutions under any name. The result isn't important - what important for UMD is that the current bullshit process set against our best interests, continue to function the way they are. This needs Macedonian participation, at the highest level. So of course UMD are going to push the line that the Macedonian politicians continue with these talks.

Pelister, the WMC are not really 'out there', I hardly ever see their presence and whenever it is there, it is mostly Todor Petrov that does the talking.

That said, I am in no way trying to take anything away from them, they are, from what I have seen, a non-compromised group of Macedonian patriots.

Why are they not as effective and influental as they should be?

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;34764]Why are they not as effective and influental as they should be?[/QUOTE]
Less internet presence and less English utilisation.
Look a the AMHRC as an example, they have far less hype than of these organisations but yet have done far more in terms of defending our identity than any of these groups. Marketing 101 guys.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;34778]Less internet presence and less English utilisation.
Look a the AMHRC as an example, they have far less hype than of these organisations but yet have done far more in terms of defending our identity than any of these groups. Marketing 101 guys.[/QUOTE]

Do you think its about marketing RtG...?

I reckon a great product sells itself...

[QUOTE=Phoenix;34791]Do you think its about marketing RtG...?

I reckon a great product sells itself...[/QUOTE]
Sadly, I disagree and will have to remind us all of the VHS vs Beta video recorders. The Beta recorder was a technically superior product but the VHS recorders had a far better marketing strategy. They prevailed.

MYOB accounting software is inferior to its QuickBooks competitor. QuickBooks in the USA represents about 99% of all small business accounting packages. In Australia, I would hazard a guess and suggest it is no more than 20% of this market. The reason .... MYOB was smart enough to advertise in accounting journals from very early on.

Many superior products have fallen to the side through poor marketing.
The UMD does exceptional marketing of itself.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;34795]Sadly, I disagree and will have to remind us all of the VHS vs Beta video recorders. The Beta recorder was a technically superior product but the VHS recorders had a far better marketing strategy. They prevailed.

MYOB accounting software is inferior to its QuickBooks competitor. QuickBooks in the USA represents about 99% of all small business accounting packages. In Australia, I would hazard a guess and suggest it is no more than 20% of this market. The reason .... MYOB was smart enough to advertise in accounting journals from very early on.

Many superior products have fallen to the side through poor marketing.
The UMD does exceptional marketing of itself.[/QUOTE]

Let me get this right RtG...are you suggesting that a really shit product can be marketed successfully...?

WMC with Petrov and [URL="http://www.maticanaiselenici.com/"]Matica na Iselenici [/URL]are just tools in the hands of the ex state services in order to control and manipulate the nationalism in our diaspora, it is mainly trickery patriotism for gaining money from them.

In Macedonia WMC is intentionaly organizing unsuccessful meetings or sabotage actions which should compromise ourselfs, to discredit the efforts in showing resistance by the common ppl who disagree with the current politics with the name issue, with the framework, with the name referendum, with the treatment(disablement pension) of the injured military personel from 2001 and many other cases.

Calling on a protest, which is poorly managed, wrong time, methods and basically no organization have to show only one thing - there is no actual ppl against the government actions.

In simple words, all of them UMD, WMC, MI and similar phoney organization are on a mission to undermine our patriotic will.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;34798]Let me get this right RtG...are you suggesting that a really shit product can be marketed successfully...?[/QUOTE]

No, I am saying an adequate product can be marketed successfully. But I do admit that you can't "polish a turd" .... notwithstanding this, you can roll it in glitter.

[QUOTE]But I do admit that you can't "polish a turd"[/QUOTE]

If its packaged and promoted well you can.

Lets just say the glitter has fallen off Greece lately.

[QUOTE=Bratot;34800]WMC with Petrov and [URL="http://www.maticanaiselenici.com/"]Matica na Iselenici [/URL]are just tools in the hands of the ex state services in order to control and manipulate the nationalism in our diaspora, it is mainly trickery patriotism for gaining money from them.

[B][U]In Macedonia WMC is intentionaly organizing unsuccessful meetings[/U][/B] or sabotage actions which should compromise ourselfs, to [B][U]discredit the efforts in showing resistance by the common ppl who disagree with the current politics[/U][/B] with the name issue, with the framework, with the name referendum, with the treatment(disablement pension) of the injured military personel from 2001 and many other cases.

[B][U]Calling on a protest, which is poorly managed, wrong time, methods and basically no organization[/U][/B] have to show only one thing - there is no actual ppl against the government actions.[/QUOTE]
They're some pretty strong statements Bratot, I was wondering if there was something more to the picture, thanks for that perspective. Not knowing much about them, I cannot dispute what you have written, as sense can be made of it. Can you tell us anything else, something more specific?

What could be more specific SoM, it's all clear only if you look through their "initiatives" and meetings, so far.

WMC and UMD seems to be the 2 "extremes" in the manipulative policy of the government&westerners.

WMC hold the imagined hardline and UMD is more polite and liberal, in which WMC have to fail in the eyes of the ppl as presenting the picture that actually there is no respectable majority among our ppl to defend the cause so the government have open hands in bringing forward the bad politics.

Koj ima oci ke vidi, nemam namera da glumam mesija, ne na javen forum so pijavici na vratot.

Can you see the difference between Macedonian and Greek government position:

[U]Macedonian identity is part of the identity of every single Greek citizen [/U]and[COLOR="Blue"] we will not negotiate on that[/COLOR], Greek Deputy Foreign Minister Dimitris Droutsas said.

Bratot, I thought Todor Petrov has been very vocal against a name change, he even closed the borders in protest in the past remember??

Prolet, you chose in what to believe. Ja sum isprobal na svoja koza.

[url]http://www.kirilica.com.mk/vest.asp?id=8276[/url]


Ne e problemot vo negovite inicijativi koi vaka odnadvor izgledaat sosem vo red, problemot e vo nacinot na koj se sproveduvaat. Vidi kolku narod sobira pod negova organizacija.

Podobro ne pravi nishto, namesto slab i losh protest koj ke ne diskreditira.

I dont see whats so bad about that?? Todor Petrov doesnt want a name change what else should he do?? He says that the question about our name was solved in 1991's referendum, i might be missing something here.

That's problem with most Macedonians.

Bratot, Todor Petrov has been fighting for his whole career on Macedonians from Egejska,Pirinska and Mala Prespa. He is a big defender of the name, sure some could argue that he is not capable of running an organization like WMC but why would he want to sabotage our cause??

Prolet no offence mate, but the believes and the logic not always match up.

That's what I'm saying, that he built up an [B]career [/B]by defending our [B]cause[/B]... !?!?!?

Do you get the point?

He has a political value, he plays the role of the radical for DPMNE.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;34661]???????? Buktop, make up your mind on whether I was useful to the cause or not. You're flip-flopping is worse than Meto's.[/QUOTE]
Your attitude is not

[QUOTE=Phoenix;34662]You're a clown Buktop, not too long ago you were happy that Vangelovski was no longer part of UMD...[/QUOTE]

Get real Phoenix

Last night's D.C. Premiere of A Name is A Name was a smashing success! We had just a little over 250 people attend. The theater was completely full. There was a very diverse crowd of attendees of all different ethnic and professional backgrounds - great networking opportunity for all who attended. Macedonians traveled from Connecticut, Ohio, Maryland, Virginia, and Macedonia to be there! UMD was very pleased! The Director Sigurjon Einarsson and Producer Jason Miko did a phenomenal job with the film, and during the Question and Answer Session. BRAVO to them for giving us Macedonians a vehicle, through film, for expressing ourselves about our ancestral and rightful name Macedonia.

The photography is working on editing the pictures from last night's premiere and we'll have them published soon along with a formal write-up on the event.

UMD will be organizing a Chicago premiere in June (TBA), and a screening of the film on June 3, 2010 during the 2nd Annual UMD Global Conference at the Sheraton Centre Hotel in downtown Toronto. The Director and Producer will be attending both. Stay tuned...

What is your opinion of the film, does it accurately describe the Macedonians?

Are you satisfied with the whole film? Appreciate your thoughts.**


**No, this is not a loaded question. And no, do not refer me to some link. You can choose to not answer if you don't wish to, that's fine, so long as you remember that perception is everything.

SoM, UMD was very pleased and satisfied with the film! Basically, the director went around the country and interviewed a lot of people about Macedonia's name, including the Prime Minister, archeologists, artists, Mayors, young Macedonians, a Baba (she was the best in the entire film!!!). The conclusion of the film was that Macedonians will not allow a change to their name, and they all conveyed their reasons why. It was a very very positive film and is probably one of the best vehicles of conveying the Macedonian story to the international community.

The film received several ovations throughout the evening, and the questions and answer session with the Director and Producer also received numerous ovations, including a standing ovation at the conclusion of the film. All we can say is WOW!

The Director and Producer will be in Australia for the Sydney Premiere on February 26th.

Hope this answered your questions.

See video on right hand side under video of the day: [url]http://www.voanews.com/macedonian/[/url]

[QUOTE=Buktop;32348]Why does my name concern you so much? What does my name have to do with the content of my posts?

My defense is not blind and I have answered that question several times already, no I am not a UMD member or board member. Not apologizing for anything,[/quote]

It is quite normal, even in the most formal forums, such as courts and parliaments, to consider the intentions and credibility of the persons making an argument, and especially a contentious statement or accusation, in assessing the argument, statement or accusation itself. So it's surprising that you might not understand why your true identity is important in evaluating your persistently touchy, offensive and often reason-defying reactions to criticisms of UMD and Macedonian Government (or is it US?) policy.

You may well have good reasons for to concealing your true identity, but you cannot reasonably insist that that's not an important matter.


[quote]...you have yet to show where UMD supports the interim accord or framework agreement other than your misinterpreted quotes. [/QUOTE]

Let's deal with one thing at a time here.

Indigen has on at least two (maybe three) occasions posted [URL="http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/180/54/"]this[/URL] link to a UMD public statement on the UMD website, which says:

"President Trajkovski stood behind his people through many trials and tribulations. His thoughts are prevalent even today. [B]“The [Framework] Agreement[/B] is not perfect, but no agreement ever is…It is the best thing we have right now…[B]The alternative is division at all levels: civil, inter-ethnic, political and generational…The alternative to peace is war, which will expose everyone to mass casualties, misery and a loss of perspective for many years to come,” said President Trajkovski in 2001.[/B] Republic of Macedonia knocks on the door to NATO membership and is an EU member candidate. [B]United Macedonian Diaspora encourages the Macedonian government, political opposition, and civil society not to forget the words of President Trajkovski and to continue towards the much-needed progress and reforms to ensure admission into all Euro-Atlantic institutions.[/B]"

Do you see this apparent UMD public statement as a clear endorsement of the "Framework Agreement" or not?

If you are indeed an active UMD member, which is reasonable to suspect, you would do your organization a much greater service by either defending that policy with facts and reasoned arguments or remaining silent when it is criticized, than by futile, disingenuous and offensive denial of its very public existence.

There was a Greek Guy who watched it that was not very impressed because in the film it said that Aleksandar the Great was Macedonian.

Anything to add UMD?

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;34013]Buktop,

I think we finally agree on something. I don't justify the Patriot Act. In fact, I think the US Government acted beyond its constitutional authority with regards to that Act.

Our original question was "Does the Macedonian Government have the constitutional authority to negotiate with a foreign government, changes to the Macedonian constitution?". Do we now agree that it does not?[/QUOTE]


That question not only raises legalistic arguments that are probably not appropriate for a forum of this nature, but others can use it to detract attention from more fundamental issues.

Perhaps a more appropriate question would be:

Does the Macedonian Government have a moral right or political authority to negotiate away the Macedonian people's sovereignty and entitlement to enjoy universally codified human rights with foreign governments? Even if the Constitution gives it that opportunity from the perspective of formal domestic law, does that amount to a moral right or legitimate political authority?

The legitimacy of the law ultimately depends on the degree to which its subjects accept it as legitimate (for now, I'll stay away from arguments about conflicts between domestic law and the International Bill of Rights), which often depends on whether it is applied justly and for its intended purpose.

The assumed fact that there is no effective legal restriction against the Parliament performing a certain act does not necessarily mean that the act itself is morally or politically just or legitimate.

Theoretically, the Constitution allows the Macedonian Parliament to change the constitution to vest all legislative, executive and judicial power in a fascist dictator or foreign imperial force. Does that mean that if it chose to do so we should be debating whether the new regime is legitimate or inevitable? Or should we only be debating the means by which we should resist and overthrow it?

[QUOTE=aleksandrov;35060]Theoretically, the Constitution allows the Macedonian Parliament to change the constitution to vest all legislative, executive and judicial power in a fascist dictator or foreign imperial force. Does that mean that if it chose to do so we should be debating whether the new regime is legitimate or inevitable? Or should we only be debating the means by which we should resist and overthrow it?[/QUOTE]

And there is the rub.
Welcome Aleksandrov.

[QUOTE=aleksandrov;35051]It is quite normal, even in the most formal forums, such as courts and parliaments, to consider the intentions and credibility of the persons making an argument, and especially a contentious statement or accusation, in assessing the argument, statement or accusation itself. So it's surprising that you might not understand why your true identity is important in evaluating your persistently touchy, offensive and often reason-defying reactions to criticisms of UMD and Macedonian Government (or is it US?) policy.

You may well have good reasons for to concealing your true identity, but you cannot reasonably insist that that's not an important matter.




Let's deal with one thing at a time here.

Indigen has on at least two (maybe three) occasions posted [URL="http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/180/54/"]this[/URL] link to a UMD public statement on the UMD website, which says:

"President Trajkovski stood behind his people through many trials and tribulations. His thoughts are prevalent even today. [B]“The [Framework] Agreement[/B] is not perfect, but no agreement ever is…It is the best thing we have right now…[B]The alternative is division at all levels: civil, inter-ethnic, political and generational…The alternative to peace is war, which will expose everyone to mass casualties, misery and a loss of perspective for many years to come,” said President Trajkovski in 2001.[/B] Republic of Macedonia knocks on the door to NATO membership and is an EU member candidate. [B]United Macedonian Diaspora encourages the Macedonian government, political opposition, and civil society not to forget the words of President Trajkovski and to continue towards the much-needed progress and reforms to ensure admission into all Euro-Atlantic institutions.[/B]"

Do you see this apparent UMD public statement as a clear endorsement of the "Framework Agreement" or not?

If you are indeed an active UMD member, which is reasonable to suspect, you would do your organization a much greater service by either defending that policy with facts and reasoned arguments or remaining silent when it is criticized, than by futile, disingenuous and offensive denial of its very public existence.[/QUOTE]
I knew it was only a matter of time before you found your way into this debate.

I don't know Phoenix's identity, I don't know SoM's, I don't know Risto's etc... there are a handful of people on the forum that actually use their real names. Though I don't see you questioning the validity of anyone else's arguments based on their identity. It seems to be one of the more favored tactics of discrediting a persons arguments. Though on an internet forum, it is ultimately my right to choose what information I disclose (you never know what kind of crazies might be out there :wacko: )

And I am sorry if you feel that my responses are touchy, offensive, and reason defying, I am sure you prefer the outright vulgar remarks of some here to my style of writing.

Why is my identity so important to you? What is it that bothers you so much about not knowing my name? You have my first name (hint: Dzog already pointed it out) That should be sufficient for you.

As for your questions regarding UMD, I have answered them already, feel free to read through the multiple threads here.

[QUOTE=aleksandrov;35060]That question not only raises legalistic arguments that are probably not appropriate for a forum of this nature, but others can use it to detract attention from more fundamental issues.

Perhaps a more appropriate question would be:

Does the Macedonian Government have a moral right or political authority to negotiate away the Macedonian people's sovereignty and entitlement to enjoy universally codified human rights with foreign governments? Even if the Constitution gives it that opportunity from the perspective of formal domestic law, does that amount to a moral right or legitimate political authority?

The legitimacy of the law ultimately depends on the degree to which its subjects accept it as legitimate (for now, I'll stay away from arguments about conflicts between domestic law and the International Bill of Rights), which often depends on whether it is applied justly and for its intended purpose.

The assumed fact that there is no effective legal restriction against the Parliament performing a certain act does not necessarily mean that the act itself is morally or politically just or legitimate.

Theoretically, the Constitution allows the Macedonian Parliament to change the constitution to vest all legislative, executive and judicial power in a fascist dictator or foreign imperial force. Does that mean that if it chose to do so we should be debating whether the new regime is legitimate or inevitable? Or should we only be debating the means by which we should resist and overthrow it?[/QUOTE]Why have the citizens not filed a suit at the constitutional court to question the legality of the Interim and Framework agreements?

[QUOTE="Aleksandrov"]You may well have good reasons for to concealing your true identity, but you cannot reasonably insist that that's not an important matter.[/QUOTE]
This is one thing that I won't condone here. If there are members that have chosen to use their real names as usernames on this forum, then that is a choice they have made. Those that haven't done this, and don't wish to do so, are under no obligation.

This part of the debates needs to be cut out altogether. Members will not be requested to provide their personal details. At the same token, those members that are using their real names as usernames, will not have their characters attacked in a personal manner. Let's respect each other in these decisions, 90% of the people here don't feel comfortable providing their real names, and I am one of them. Recent examples from some Greek racists have justified this decision.

You mean my personal details and Risto's and Jankovska's personal details being posted on the Greek forums?

Or do you mean the annoying phone calls I used to get, threatening to kill my family and my dog (I don't have a dog, btw)?

Rogi, When was this??

[QUOTE=Buktop;35067]I knew it was only a matter of time before you found your way into this debate.

I don't know Phoenix's identity, I don't know SoM's, I don't know Risto's etc... there are a handful of people on the forum that actually use their real names. Though I don't see you questioning the validity of anyone else's arguments based on their identity. It seems to be one of the more favored tactics of discrediting a persons arguments. Though on an internet forum, it is ultimately my right to choose what information I disclose (you never know what kind of crazies might be out there :wacko: )

And I am sorry if you feel that my responses are touchy, offensive, and reason defying, I am sure you prefer the outright vulgar remarks of some here to my style of writing.

Why is my identity so important to you? What is it that bothers you so much about not knowing my name? You have my first name (hint: Dzog already pointed it out) That should be sufficient for you.

As for your questions regarding UMD, I have answered them already, feel free to read through the multiple threads here.[/QUOTE]

Enough with the petty diversions. I didn't ask you for your identity (at least not on this thread). I simply reminded you of an obvious social phenomenon which you pretend to be ignorant of: that your true identity is important to other reasonable people when weighing up your contentious actions, including statements and arguments. I did that because you chose to act surprised about the fact that Vangelovski considers it important.

You know very well that I have made numerous posts on Maknews to the effect that, in general, I find it morally objectionable for people to make contentious statements, especially statements that vilify or defame real people on public forums, while concealing their own true identity. I made that same argument to Vangelovski personally some time ago, and I believe he accepted it, given that he has subsequently swapped his former fictitious internet ID for his real name. Many people I generally respect disagree with me on this issue, but that takes nothing away from my convictions about it.

Now reply to the substance of my post or stop the futile red-herring.

You accused Vangelovski of baselessly claiming that the UMD leadership has supported the Framework Agreement. I referred you to a link that Indigen posted at least twice on this thread, which shows that UMD has published a statement of support for the Framework Agreement on its own website, which is still there. Why have you repeatedly evaded responding to that reference to clear evidence?

Do you still content that there is no evidence that the UMD has publicly supported the Framework Agreement?

Welcome aboard Aleksandrov

Good to have you here

[QUOTE=Buktop;35068]Why have the citizens not filed a suit at the constitutional court to question the legality of the Interim and Framework agreements?[/QUOTE]

If you are going to judge others, first judge yourself.

What have YOU done to resist and oppose the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement?

What have YOU done to encourage the UMD to resist and oppose the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement?

If 90% of the citizens of Macedonia decide to sell their dignity and their identity for promises of material benefit or to be led by fear, does that justify you or anyone else jumping on the bandwagon?