[QUOTE=Prolet;34209]SOM, If we where forced to change our name, we are not forced im sure you would answer the question too if you where forced to make a choice.

Back then SOM we where in Limbo, we didnt know if we would exist as a country i've never pushed for a name change and im not planning on pushing now, i've made myself clear on that. Its a pointless discussion because the Greeks would never accept it, why are we arguing for?? We know what the Greeks are like and we have a tough fight on our hands.

Meto is not the problem here, we need an organization like the UMD that will promote our country and gain support for us in the Diaspora. Weather its the UMD or somebody else we need somebody, we dont have a choice the Greeks are paying over a hundred Million Dollars to wipe us out how do we defend ourselves?[/QUOTE]

Prolet, the problem is guys like Meto and everybody who thinks there's a possible solution by validating the negotiation process. This problem wouldn't exist if everybody refused outright to negotiate our identity, instead we have Meto advocating triple name formulas, we have idiots that agree to these negotiations, we have corrupt politicians who are proposing name changes and spreading lies...

This negotiation process has been in motion for almost 2 decades, the greeks have nothing to lose by participating whilst each day that we're involved another one or two people drop off and are willing to accept whatever is thrown in their direction...the weak are slowly being eroded away

[QUOTE]We cannot be forced and especially not 'forced to choose' (that's not a choice). If they could force us, they would have. [/QUOTE]

Rogi, Do you live in fantasy world or something? Ofcourse they can but they wont because then they would have to get their hands dirty. How did they force the Serbs to give up Kosovo?? Why didnt the Serbs attack Kosovo when they Declared independence back in 2008?? Because they would have lost the little land that they have left, its better to bark like a dog on the sidelines then to be ripped to pieces.

How did we capitulate in signing the Ohrid Accord?? How did they force us to put a no fly zone over the Skopska Crna Gora region after we demolished the Albanians in Radusha and Arachinovo?? Where do you live mate honestly??

I remember people saying to Boris Trajkovski to go all out on the Albanians in Arachinovo and Tanushevci and do you know what his response was?? "I cant do it, they will take me to the Hague" so why is he president then when his country is being attacked?? Why didnt he offer his resignation if he was not prepared to make that order??

Kaj sto ima sila nema pravdina remember that.

[QUOTE="Prolet"]Back then SOM we where in Limbo, we didnt know if we would exist as a country......[/QUOTE]
Again, the same thing with you. Vangelovski was right, you're exactly like a rollercoaster. You are making the excuse that because we were "in limbo" we should have just settled for something other than our name. What do you mean we didn't know if we would exist as a country? You're scare-mongering like those that you claim to despise, enough with your defeatist attitude, it's pathetic. You don't need to tell me what state Macedonia was in during that time, a name change could never be justified or accepted by most Macedonians barring those like Meto and, unfortunately, you it would seem. Thank God you're not in politics, do sea kizni so ke napraese.
[QUOTE]Meto is not the problem here, we need an organization like the UMD that will promote our country and gain support for us in the Diaspora. Weather its the UMD or somebody else we need somebody, we dont have a choice........[/QUOTE]
There is always a choice, you've chosen capitulation at our weakest moment. Samio ne znais so tropas, Meto is a problem here, and I choose not to support him as a 'leader' of the Macedonian Diaspora.

You seem to find no problem with the UMD sponsoring some schooling program for Macedonians on the one hand while talking about name changes on the other, that is your choice. Me, I commend much of their work, but their influence where it concerns Macedonian policies should be remain minimal.

[QUOTE=Prolet;34216]Rogi, Do you live in fantasy world or something? Ofcourse they can but they wont because then they would have to get their hands dirty. How did they force the Serbs to give up Kosovo?? Why didnt the Serbs attack Kosovo when they Declared independence back in 2008?? Because they would have lost the little land that they have left, its better to bark like a dog on the sidelines then to be ripped to pieces.

How did we capitulate in signing the Ohrid Accord?? How did they force us to put a no fly zone over the Skopska Crna Gora region after we demolished the Albanians in Radusha and Arachinovo?? Where do you live mate honestly??

I remember people saying to Boris Trajkovski to go all out on the Albanians in Arachinovo and Tanushevci and do you know what his response was?? "I cant do it, they will take me to the Hague" so why is he president then when his country is being attacked?? Why didnt he offer his resignation if he was not prepared to make that order??

Kaj sto ima sila nema pravdina remember that.[/QUOTE]
You are making irrelevant comparisons to 'justify' a defeatist attitude.

Macedonia will not be bombed for refusing to accept a name change.

No Macedonian will go to the Hague for refusing to accept a name change.

[QUOTE=Prolet;34216]Rogi, Do you live in fantasy world or something? Ofcourse they can but they wont because then they would have to get their hands dirty. How did they force the Serbs to give up Kosovo?? Why didnt the Serbs attack Kosovo when they Declared independence back in 2008?? Because they would have lost the little land that they have left, its better to bark like a dog on the sidelines then to be ripped to pieces.

How did we capitulate in signing the Ohrid Accord?? How did they force us to put a no fly zone over the Skopska Crna Gora region after we demolished the Albanians in Radusha and Arachinovo?? Where do you live mate honestly??

I remember people saying to Boris Trajkovski to go all out on the Albanians in Arachinovo and Tanushevci and do you know what his response was?? "I cant do it, they will take me to the Hague" so why is he president then when his country is being attacked?? Why didnt he offer his resignation if he was not prepared to make that order??

Kaj sto ima sila nema pravdina remember that.[/QUOTE]

Prolet, if that was the case the Ohrid Accord probably would have had a clause to initiate a name change as well, to go with the other losses of sovereignty that it stipulated...

This name 'game' is a battle of least resistance...if the Macedonians are percieved as being weak the pressure will fall on us to abandon our identity...if we remain unmoving nobody can touch us because it really isn't anyones problem...unfortunately too many idiots on 'our' side give the silly process a degree of credibility by entertaining somebody elses stupidity...

Way too many, but in the bigger picture they aren't that many, and they are steadily being weeded out, for all Macedonians to see....

[QUOTE]What is the purpose of the existence of an independent Republic of Macedonia?[/QUOTE]

On 8th of September 1991 in a referendum 86% of our citizens decided for our country to break away from the then Yugoslavia. We are a democratic country with a democratic government, the purpose of our existence is to provide continuity and good and prosperous life for its citizens.

We have every right to exist as a nation and as a country, the UN law clearly states that every country has the right to name themselves as they like.

[QUOTE]the purpose of our existence is to provide continuity and good and prosperous life for its citizens[/QUOTE]

That is where we differ. Where I would have said

[QUOTE]The purpose of Macedonia's existence is to be the nation-state and home of the Macedonian people and the guardian of the Macedonian name, identity, language culture and history, as well as provide a prosperous life for the Macedonian people AND it's citizens[/QUOTE]


I asked what is the purpose of the existence of the [U]Republic of Macedonia[/U], not a generic question about the existence of any state, but rather whether there is an ideological purpose for the existence of the Republic of Macedonia.

If there is no such ideological purpose to Macedonia's existence, then for those with such views, it makes no difference if Macedonia exists or not, they are indifferent to whether they are citizens of Macedonia or citizens of any country, because they view the state based around citizenship, not the Macedonian people.

Whereas, if you view is that there is an ideological purpose to the existence of the Republic of Macedonia as the home and guardian of the Macedonian people and the Macedonian identity, then you would understand why there is no such thing as being 'forced to choose' and changing the name, because that goes against the very ideological purpose for the existence of the Republic of Macedonia. It is Macedonia, or nothing.

[QUOTE="Prolet"]We have every right to exist as a nation and as a country, the UN law clearly states that every country has the right to name themselves as they like.[/QUOTE]
Yet you are comfortable with falling to one knee before the final round is over. Macedonians are made of sterner stuff, pull yourself together Prolet.

SOM, Did we change our name yes or no?? we didnt do it then and i never pushed for a name change ever. We where lied to by our own people, we have Kiro Gligorov as a president calling us SLavs for gods sake its easy to talk now but back then things where different.

SOM, I advise you to have a chat with Gruevski or anybody close to him and see if you can get the real picture. The whole democratic chat is pointless because it will never be accepted from the other side even if every single one of us agreed to it.

Phoenix, I gave the Ohrid Accord as an example to how we were forced to sign it, the name change is a different kettle of fish all together. No country would go through all that trouble to force us to change our name just because Greece doesnt like it, so no name change.

[QUOTE]The purpose of Macedonia's existence is to be the nation-state and home of the Macedonian people and the guardian of the Macedonian name, identity, language culture and history, as well as provide a prosperous life for the Macedonian people AND it's citizens[/QUOTE]

And that was decided in the referendum back in 1991, i agree with your theory.

[QUOTE]Yet you are comfortable with falling to one knee before the final round is over. Macedonians are made of sterner stuff, pull yourself together Prolet.[/QUOTE]

SOM, Im pulling myself together and i've never ever pushed for a name change not in 1991 not in 1995 not in 2001 not in 2006 and certainly not now. You've accused me of twisting your words what are you doing now?? We are arguing about something that doesn't exist, Democratic Republic of Macedonia was never an option and it was never put on the table by the Greek side it wasnt until our delegation fully told the people what the situation really was and that was to change everything there is to our country. Our name our identity change of our id cards,passports everything something that even the Albanians wouldnt agree to, this so called red line by the Greeks was in place while SDSM where negotiating with them yet they never disclosed it in public now that we know what the Greeks want well its easy to tell them where to go...

And yes Rogi pull out of the negotiations right now, i fully support what you are stating.

Prolet, you made your position clear some posts ago. A name change was acceptable to you when we were at our weakest, now that we are 'stronger', a name change is not acceptable to you.

Tesko tebe za pamet.

[QUOTE="Prolet"]You've accused me of twisting your words what are you doing now??[/QUOTE]
Prolet, your consistency at being inconsistent is amazing. Don't accuse me of such things because you are incapable of remembering what you wrote yourself. On post #319 of this thread you wrote:
[QUOTE]I'd rather be called Demkratska Republika Makedonija then Severna Makedonija, but now there will be no name change whats so ever.[/QUOTE]
Drug pat ne ripai, not now and not ever should a name change be contemplated. You should rather the Republic of Macedonia.

No SOM you made up your own mind and conclusion. I said we where in a weaker position when Meto made that statement on Za Makedonskite Raboti, i said if i was forced to change my name i would rather change it to DRM then Severna or Gorna Makedonija (Nova Makedonija is already taken) this is a forced choice if it gets to that stage and no it hasnt gotten to that stage and it never will.

So according to your theory Nikola Gruevski is a traitor because he apparently accepted Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) but how can he be a traitor when our name wasnt changed?? How can you judge anybody when we havnt changed our name??

SOM, We just found out that Greece spent over $160 Million on trying to wipe our name what did we in the Diaspora do?? we got to that stage because we have corrupted journalists and traitors in our country, we in the Diaspora also failed and we are still arguing over petty issues. We've spent months and months arguing about a name that does not exist what is it with all these "IF" questions??

If i put a gun to your head and force you to change you name you will do it, thats what forcing is, being in a check mate position and you have no other choice but to do what you are told. We are not in that position and we never where, however we had cowards who made our people in the republic feel that way and when people are scared they will always believe you no matter what you tell them to do. Did you even bother to watch the Mirka Velinovska interview?? Why do you think she is pushing for all journalists,lawyers,judges to implement the law on Lustracija?? Because these idiots where the ones who pushed us to change our name, that if we dont change our name we would be isolated,fall apart,threat of war, they got the Albanians to make ridiculous statements, that if we dont change our name in 6 months the Albanians will make problems ect etc somebody payed them to say that over and over again and now it needs to stop and it should be punished by law.

[QUOTE="Prolet"]No SOM you made up your own mind and conclusion. I said we where in a weaker position when Meto made that statement on Za Makedonskite Raboti, [B]i said if i was forced[/B] to change my name i would rather change it to DRM then Severna or Gorna Makedonija ..........[/QUOTE]
Prolet, that was your first paragraph, read what you wrote a little later in your last paragraph:
[QUOTE][B]If i put a gun to your head and force you[/B] to change you name you will do it, [B]thats what forcing is[/B], being in a check mate position and you have no other choice but to do what you are told. [B]We are not in that position and we never where[/B]........[/QUOTE]
And now let's look at what you wrote earlier:
[QUOTE]SOM, During the SFRJ era we where called Socijalisticka Republika Makedonija, [U]I'd rather be called Demkratska Republika Makedonija then Severna Makedonija, [B]but now[/B] there will be no name change whats so ever.[/U] 3 years ago we where in a much tougher position and we where fueled with fear that somehow we wont exist as a country anymore and that we will be isolated pretty much what the Opposition was trying to point out.[/QUOTE]
But now? But before, even though we were never 'forced' or in a 'checkmate' position, you would 'rather' Democratic? Why would you even choose one, when none are acceptable? I am having trouble keeping up with everything you're saying Prolet, I think that half the time you are just spewing up the first words that come to your mind.
[QUOTE]So according to your theory Nikola Gruevski is a traitor because he apparently accepted Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) but how can he be a traitor when our name wasnt changed??[/QUOTE]
I am not speaking with Nikola Gruevski, and Nikola Gruevski does not speak like you. Can you show me the evidence of his apparent acceptance? If the Macedonian PM jumped off a bridge, would you follow him?

And Prolet, I specifically recall saying that you are not a traitor. You suggestions are very misguided mate, razbudise tro.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;34181]Buktop,

Weren't you arguing black and blue that Meto had answered all these questions and that we had all been debunked??? Or is this the first time you actually watched the video clip?[/QUOTE]
No actually, I wasn't.

I have watched the video clip several times

I wasn't aware that Meto had responded.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;34184]No problem Buktop, glad you are able to acknowledge this.

We both know, neither the UN, EU or NATO are interested in entertaining perpetual name changes within their respective organisations. Meto didn't indicate any further ammendments, and that part of him I can understand, because when you're 'winging it' you can't really foresee and influence the future, let alone make suggestions that are intended to eventuate at a later date. He certainly didn't indicate that it was a temporary suggestion, although having not done so has allowed him to take advantage of an exit route where he can alternatively claim it "was" a temporary suggestion. To be quite honest, I don't think that Meto himself knew exactly what he was suggesting. It is a terrible interview, but it could have been explained with some honesty and integrity, rather than the way it subsequently was.

I am yet to meet another Macedonian in the Diaspora who was prepared to be called a 'democratic Macedonian' at the UN, [U]the table of nations[/U]. All of us want to rid ourselves of the artificial acronym that is officially in use at the UN, but I am also yet to meet another Macedonian who was prepared to exchange the acronym [U]for anything other than[/U] the (Republic of) Macedonia. I have found such Macedonians on the internet only.

While I was prepared to excuse Meto's ZMR interview and some other sorry examples as errors in judgement and/or wording, the sheer denials have unfortunately confirmed, for me at least, that this person is not fit or capable to be the leading voice of the Macedonian Diaspora. And thank God, he isn't. Too many times Buktop, these flip-flop 'leaders' have let us down. The Macedonian Diaspora are toughening up, and they want to see strength, integrity and consistency in the people who speak for them, they want [B][I]their[/I][/B] voice represented, and they don't want to be treated as insignificant pawns that can be fed any sort of lie or distortion.

Meto was not representing the voice or expressing the view of the Macedonian Diaspora in the ZMR interview. And his refusal to admit to this mistake indicates to me, that he cannot be honest with himself. So how on earth can he be honest with the Macedonian Diaspora, the people he claims to represent?

Ask him yourself Buktop, can you ask Meto if he accepted a name change and an effectively 3-name 'concept' in the ZMR interview? He will deny it, coeko sam se prai budala.[/QUOTE]
I will ask him.

[QUOTE=Buktop;34237]I will ask him.[/QUOTE]

I have. No answer. Let us know how you go.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;34189]Buktop, you 'missed' Meto's triple-name formula suggestion when you were preoccupied with diverting this part of the debate with your constitutional gluposti...

Buktop, cut the bullshit...your post is full of shit, at the start you saw the light for the first time after SoM guided you in the right direction, then you ask the question was it permanent or temporary and finally you finish by stating you understand Meto...

You're an idiot Buktop, you're not fooling anybody with your goody two-shoes routine...[/QUOTE]
I saw it, I didn't know that Meto responded to it.

Constitutional gluposti? If you would even make an effort to understand what the constitution says you sure as hell wouldn't be calling it gluposti.

Phoenix, seeing as you don't understand what I write, let me sink down to your level for one post.

Phoenix, You haven't made 2 posts that haven't had my name in them, and you havent said shit about anything but me for 2 weeks. You need to get your head out of your ass and get laid before your fucking empty head explodes. You seem to be so infatuated with me that you get a stiffy every time I post. Why don't you address the issues rather than write bullshit about me? Kiss my :asshole:

Okay back to normal now, Phoenix, why don't you explain to me how stating that I understand Meto means I'm full of shit? Why don't you explain to me how a genuine curiosity into the official proposal is bullshit?

I have had enough of your fucking ignorance Phoenix

[quote=Buktop;34236]No actually, I wasn't.

I have watched the video clip several times

I wasn't aware that Meto had responded.[/quote]

We all know that you were, here and on Maknews - you've been claiming that Paul/Pelister has been "debunked" by several peolpe - and all he did was post Meto's comments.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;34224]Yet you are comfortable with falling to one knee before the final round is over. Macedonians are made of sterner stuff, pull yourself together Prolet.[/QUOTE]
Prolet do you know the saying of our Komiti. "Sloboda ili Smrt". They died with that motto!!! So cut the shit about being weak and against the wall etc. Better if are wiped out as an nation and being remembered as Republic of Macedonia than living under an imposed name!!! If you are a patriot, you were WRONG to suggest any other modification, under any circumstances. Be a man and say you were wrong or maybe you were drunk!!!:37: Otherwise there is a spot for you on the UMD board.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;34240]We all know that you were, here and on Maknews - you've been claiming that Paul/Pelister has been "debunked" by several peolpe - and all he did was post Meto's comments.[/QUOTE]

Well if you read TM/Rogi's numerous responses you would understand what I meant when I said that, obviously you conveniently ignore them, and you know, whether you admit it or not, Paul was doing a hell of a lot more than posting Meto's statements. He went over and above in an attempt to demonize UMD and he has no intention of improving their actions.

Buktop,

For the sake of clarity, I haven't responded or tried explaining the ZMR interview, mainly because I share the same views as most others here on that one.

[QUOTE=Rogi;34253]Buktop,

For the sake of clarify, I haven't responded or tried explaining the ZMR interview, mainly because I share the same views as most others here on that one.[/QUOTE]

I understand that, I am speaking about other inferences made by Paul that you had responded to.

[quote=Buktop;34261]I understand that, I am speaking about other inferences made by Paul that you had responded to.[/quote]

Meto's other bungled policy statements?

[QUOTE=Buktop;34239]I saw it, I didn't know that Meto responded to it.

Constitutional gluposti? If you would even make an effort to understand what the constitution says you sure as hell wouldn't be calling it gluposti.

Phoenix, seeing as you don't understand what I write, let me sink down to your level for one post.

Phoenix, You haven't made 2 posts that haven't had my name in them, and you havent said shit about anything but me for 2 weeks. You need to get your head out of your ass and get laid before your fucking empty head explodes. You seem to be so infatuated with me that you get a stiffy every time I post. Why don't you address the issues rather than write bullshit about me? Kiss my :asshole:

Okay back to normal now, Phoenix, why don't you explain to me how stating that I understand Meto means I'm full of shit? Why don't you explain to me how a genuine curiosity into the official proposal is bullshit?

I have had enough of your fucking ignorance Phoenix[/QUOTE]

Buktop, I don't think you're an honest man.

We are very pleased how things are going, 250 people are expected to attend.

Tickets are selling fast though, so buy today at [url]http://www.acteva.com/booking.cfm?bevaid=196790[/url]

For more information, please contact UMD International Policy and Diplomacy Fellow Diana Popstefanova at [email][email protected][/email].

[QUOTE=Phoenix;34378]Buktop, I don't think you're an honest man.[/QUOTE]
I really don't care what you think Phoenix, if you have a problem with me that is fine, but don't dilute threads with attacks on me, use facts and prove me wrong.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;34272]Meto's other bungled policy statements?[/QUOTE]I don't think you should get all worked up over semantics.

There have been two changes to the tour flyer, see: [url]http://umdiaspora.org/images/UMDAustraliaTourFlyerA4.pdf[/url]

The meeting in Adelaide will be held on February 6th, 3:00 p.m. at the Migrant Resource Centre of SA, Grand Hall, 59 King William Street.

The meeting in Auckland will be held on February 22, 6:30 p.m. at the Burce Mason Centre, Cnr. Hurstmere Road & The Promenade, Takapuna

[quote=Buktop;34411]I don't think you should get all worked up over semantics.[/quote]

Semantics? They're UMD's policy positions - Support for the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement and support for "acceptable" names.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;34451]Semantics? They're UMD's policy positions - Support for the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement and support for "acceptable" names.[/QUOTE]Look at UMD's policy positions on their website, can you quote me where they claim to support anything that you have just named?

Like I said, your issue is with the semantics of their press releases.

[quote=Buktop;34456]Look at UMD's policy positions on their website, can you quote me where they claim to support anything that you have just named?

Like I said, your issue is with the semantics of their press releases.[/quote]

Buktop, you're going around in circles and you're only lying to yourself.

Every statement made by UMD is a policy statement and a statement of UMD's stance on a particular issue. They're quite clear.

On a side note, Meto's visit to Australia is coming up. I urge all Macedonian's who go along to record the event as accurately as possible so that he cannot deny and/or reinterpret his statements after the fact.

Does anyone know roughly how many Macedonians live in New Zealand?

They dont have a Macedonian Church there

[QUOTE=Buktop;34456]
Like I said, your issue is with the semantics of their press releases.[/QUOTE]

Buktop, Freudian slip or just another example of an unfortunate choice of words...?

[COLOR="Red"]"...the semantics of their press releases".[/COLOR]

Yes I would have to agree if we go by the definition of 'semantics'...

...the language used (as in advertising or political propaganda) to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings...
[url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semantics[/url]

Buktop, this is a huge problem that UMD have, a lack of clarity in their message unless its a deliberate ploy...?

Buktop, you lack honesty...so inat rabotash, magare edno...

come on man give the kid a break with a name like buktop whaddya expect rocket science, although i once remember a buktop on maknews who actually was smart and brave enough to support obama over palin insignificance and the other old soldier whats his name now.
wow what happening to you buktop sidling up to meto and the macedonian neocons all spin smea i antics and bullshit like dubbya the nulicker warrior

Buktop = Viktor in rakopisna kirilica (except for the "t"). Surely we can't hold that against him? :whistling:

dzog you are a genius mate you are right and i humbly apologise to butop, its a great name after all. so mate any chance of you coming down for the dinner in march. i urge you to come man.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;34457]Buktop, you're going around in circles and you're only lying to yourself.

Every statement made by UMD is a policy statement and a statement of UMD's stance on a particular issue. They're quite clear.

On a side note, Meto's visit to Australia is coming up. I urge all Macedonian's who go along to record the event as accurately as possible so that he cannot deny and/or reinterpret his statements after the fact.[/QUOTE]We have argued this before Vangelovski, many times. It seems we are bound to either side of the argument, and there is no chance of reconciliation.

I hope you do record it because I would like to see UMD's tour of Australia.