[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32260]Buktop, are you for real? Are you saying you honestly cannot understand the role of the parliament and executive government in a republic and where its authority comes from and how it is limited? Or are you just clogging up the thread as usual?[/QUOTE]

I know the role of the parliament and executive government, I am asking if you know, because your attitudes seem to suggest otherwise, now I have asked you 10 times to answer 3 simple questions, WHY HAVEN'T YOU? Why are you avoiding these questions?

[QUOTE=Buktop;32255]
[quote]Again, read and understand my posts, I left before UMD bylaws were finalised and adopted. A few days ago you were arguing that UMD had too little members who were far too geographically spread out to hold elections. Now that your master has contradicted you, you've changed your tune.[/quote]
So you left before the bylaws were finalized and you are here claiming to know something about the internal workings of UMD? You claim to know more than everyone here about the "secret agenda" of UMD and you don't even know the bylaws?[/QUOTE]
Why don't you address this while we are at it. How can you claim to know so much about UMD when you don't even know the bylaws? What is your agenda here?

Vangelovski, how about you answer my questions that you have been dodging for at least 10 posts now rather than wasting your precious time thinking up new insults for me?

Phoenix, you don't have to like me, and you can call me whatever you like, but the fact remains that you cannot disprove my arguments and that is why you resort to such insults. It's been a while since you have added a post with any real substance to these debates.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32318]I was a co-founder of UMD, I'm quite aware of what the thinking is in the organisation.[/QUOTE]

You were a co-founder and yet you don't even know the bylaws. You left 2 years ago, I don't know why you keep bringing up that you co-founded it because you are obviously trying to destroy it for some personal reason.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;32330]Hi blackcactus,

this is the crux of the problem, any organization that claims to represent the masses can't afford to be labled "ambiguous".[/QUOTE]

I agree, statements should be as clear as possible

I suspect that press release that Vangelovski high-lighted was for a different audience (other than Macedonians) and some political speak may have been used

Who they think was the audience should be cleared up so those statements can be put into context (assuming we don't wish UMD to be a militant organisation we "may" understand where they are coming from on this)

I personally ask the question.. What good work (if any) has UMD done for Macedonia and the Macedonians?

What my answer is (which changes over time) is how I feel about UMD or any other Macedonian group at any one time

I have known you a long time Phoenix, you want things out in the open and cleared up, you don't take BS kindly, I fully understand your view on this

Your brother

BC

PS: I hope I didn't confuse you, looking though what I wrote reads like a dogs breakfast :001_huh:

[quote=Buktop;32340]You were a co-founder and yet you don't even know the bylaws. You left 2 years ago, I don't know why you keep bringing up that you co-founded it because you are obviously trying to destroy it for some personal reason.[/quote]

Buktop, I think its time that you show your cards - rather than accusing everyone of "personal" agenda's while hiding behind an internet pseudonym.

Why do you blindly defend UMD? Are you a UMD member? Are you a UMD Board Member? Why are you acting as an apologist for UMD's blatant support for the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement? Living in New Jersey (Meto's home state), what are you links to Meto?

Buktop, I've answered your ridiculous questions - not only that, but I've taken it about 10 steps further. Try reading it. If you reply with something sensible, maybe we can move on, otherwise, I'll have to revert back to calling you a Charlatan.

I know so much about UMD because I was apart of the leadership for four years. The bylaws (as I've already stated) were only started in the final months I was there. I can post the version that I have, but it may not be the final one. You'd better check with your Master just in case he doesn't want you to push that - or do you want to back down now? In fact, the entire time I've publically questioned UMD, I've only kept to their PUBLIC statements. If I wanted to cause real damage, instead of putting them on the right path, I could easily have devulged the contents of internal conversations.

As per you'r "knowledge" Charlatan, provide a sensible response to my post - I've already answered your ridiculous questions and taken it about 10 steps forward.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32344]I know so much about UMD because I was apart of the leadership for four years. The bylaws (as I've already stated) were only started in the final months I was there. I can post the version that I have, but it may not be the final one. You'd better check with your Master just in case he doesn't want you to push that - or do you want to back down now? In fact, the entire time I've publically questioned UMD, I've only kept to their PUBLIC statements. If I wanted to cause real damage, instead of putting them on the right path, I could easily have devulged the contents of internal conversations.

As per you'r "knowledge" Charlatan, provide a sensible response to my post - I've already answered your ridiculous questions and taken it about 10 steps forward.[/QUOTE]Started? Vangelovski, what was the exact date of your resignation? And what was the exact date of the approval of the bylaws? You claim to know so much, and yet until yesterday you didn't even know that UMD board members held elections... You were complaining to me that "a democratic organization should hold elections" and yet you didn't even know that they do hold them.

You were a board member for 4 years and you don't know anything about UMD... or you are intentionally misrepresenting the facts. Why don't you come clean?

In the opinion of James Madison [quote]Representative democracy (Republic) is a form of government founded on the principle of elected individuals representing the people, as opposed to either autocracy or direct democracy.

The representatives form an independent ruling body (for an election period) charged with the responsibility of acting in the people's interest, but not as their proxy representatives; that is, not necessarily always according to their wishes, but with enough authority to [B]exercise swift and resolute initiative in the face of changing circumstances.[/B][/quote] Was that so hard Vangelovski? You have strayed into constitutional mandate when all I asked for was a few simple questions concerning representative bodies of Macedonia. Now why don't you show me the relevant articles of the Macedonian constitution that expressly prohibit parliamentarians from voting on a new flag.

I am not saying that it is right, I am saying due to a flawed constitution these parliamentarians have the right to negotiate. And not only that, but the fact that the citizens that voted for the parliamentarians did not object also signifies consent (as I have argued with you about before)

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32343]Buktop, I've answered your ridiculous questions - not only that, but I've taken it about 10 steps further. Try reading it. If you reply with something sensible, maybe we can move on, otherwise, I'll have to revert back to calling you a Charlatan.[/QUOTE]

Everyone take a good look at this thread and the amount of times I have asked Vangelovski the same questions and yet he refuses to answer... Why? Because he does not want to admit he is wrong.

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2423&page=6[/url]

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32342]Buktop, I think its time that you show your cards - rather than accusing everyone of "personal" agenda's while hiding behind an internet pseudonym.

Why do you blindly defend UMD? Are you a UMD member? Are you a UMD Board Member? Why are you acting as an apologist for UMD's blatant support for the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement? Living in New Jersey (Meto's home state), what are you links to Meto?[/QUOTE]
Why does my name concern you so much? What does my name have to do with the content of my posts?

My defense is not blind and I have answered that question several times already, no I am not a UMD member or board member. Not apologizing for anything, you have yet to show where UMD supports the interim accord or framework agreement other than your misinterpreted quotes. I worked with Meto in MOYANA a few years ago, after that we lost touch.

Vangelovski, have you ever even met with Meto? Or any of the board members in America?

Charlatan,

Did you read my post? I'll dumb it down for you.

A parliament and/or government is LIMITED by the Constitution. This means that the parliament and/or government ONLY HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO WHAT THE CONSTITUTION SPECIFICALLY ALLOWS THEM TO - NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND - EVERYTHING ELSE IS OFF BOUNDS.

ITS NOT A CASE OF THE PARLAIMENT AND/OR GOVERNMENT HAVING FREE RANGE TO DO WHAT THEY WANT UNLESS THE CONSTITUTION SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT THEY CAN'T. DO YOU GET IT???

If the constitution does not ALLOW it, then by defualt they don't have the authority. They only have the authority to do those specific things that the constitution ALLOWS. The constitution would have to specifically ALLOW the parliament and/or government to negotiate with a third party the contents of the constitution. THE MACEDONIAN CONSTITUTION DOES NOT PROVIDE THEM WITH THAT AUTHORITY.

Seeing as you mention James Madison, why don't you actually read up on the founding fathers and see what role they saw for Congress and whether they believed Congress could act outside of the paramaters of the constitution.

READ A BOOK - ANY BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Charlatan,

Your defence is blind. I just provided a quote where UMD specifically called on Greece to abide by the Accord.

[quote=Buktop;32345]Started? Vangelovski, what was the exact date of your resignation? And what was the exact date of the approval of the bylaws? You claim to know so much, and yet until yesterday you didn't even know that UMD board members held elections... You were complaining to me that "a democratic organization should hold elections" and yet you didn't even know that they do hold them.

You were a board member for 4 years and you don't know anything about UMD... or you are intentionally misrepresenting the facts. Why don't you come clean?[/quote]

Charlatan,

Please show me when in the past five years UMD held elections? If you want to know whether I was a UMD member for four years or not, ask your mentor. While your at it, ask him how hard he wants you to push on here and how much information he wants to be provided?

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32349]They only have the authority to do those specific things that the constitution [U]ALLOWS[/U][/QUOTE]


[quote]UNLESS THE CONSTITUTION SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT THEY [U]CAN'T[/U][/quote]
The constitution, as said by yourself, does not contain any clauses excluding the negotiation of a flag or clauses concerning the alteration of the constitution through negotiation.
[quote]Nowhere in the Macedonian Constitution do I see the Macedonian Government been delegated the authority to negotiate changes to the constitution with a third party, in this case a foreign government. Such authority cannot be assumed and must be expressly provided by the people, which it has not.[/quote]

If the constitution does not have any clauses specifically prohibiting parliamentarians from alterations why wouldn't they be able to?

Also considering the form of government of the Republic of Macedonia, the voting citizens of the country consented to vote for parliamentarians as representatives to act on behalf of their wishes, and as of yet, none of those citizens have rescinded the votes of their elected representatives, thereby constituting consent of their actions.

I asked you before to quote the relevant articles of the constitution that prohibit this and you laughed at me. Do you not know of any clauses?

You either don't understand what I am typing or you don't want to, which is it?

Charlatan, it is painfully obvious you have no idea about republicanism.

Quoting half of my sentance does not add to your argument (your second quote) - if you read the first half of the sentance you will see that it says "its not a case of this".

A REPUBLICAN PARLIAMENT/GOVERNMENT HAS NO AUTHORITY TO DO ANYTHING BEYOND THAT WHICH IS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED FOR UNDER THE CONSTITUTION - THE MACEDONIAN CONSTITUTION DOES NOT PROVIDE IT WITH THE AUTHORITY TO NEGOTIATE WITH A FORIEGN STATE OVER THE CONTENTS OF THE CONSTITUTIION - HENCE IT IS NOT ALLOWD TO.

I'm not going to waste my time with this - please read something relevant and come back when you've got a basic knowledge of republicanism.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32351]Charlatan,

Please show me when in the past five years UMD held elections? If you want to know whether I was a UMD member for four years or not, ask your mentor. While your at it, ask him how hard he wants you to push on here and how much information he wants to be provided?[/QUOTE]

As stated by UMD the board of directors were elected in 2008 and are to hold terms of 3 years. You claimed that you were a member 2 years ago, and that the bylaws were being formed while you were there, I am pretty sure that elections would be on the original draft of the bylaws. I do not dispute your membership at UMD, I want to know your exact date of resignation and the exact date of approval of the bylaws (which were being drafted while you were a board member, which means you had a direct role in drafting them) I don't think that is a tough question, or a relatively sensitive question to answer.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32356]Charlatan, it is painfully obvious you have no idea about republicanism.

Quoting half of my sentance does not add to your argument.

I'm not going to waste my time with this - please read something relevant and come back when you've got a basic knowledge of republicanism.[/QUOTE]
Just admit that you are wrong, make this whole process easier.

Can you quote me the relevant articles of the constitution that prohibit these actions?

[quote=Buktop;32358]Just admit that you are wrong, make this whole process easier.

Can you quote me the relevant articles of the constitution that prohibit these actions?[/quote]

Do you have a reading disability?

A REPUBLICAN PARLIAMENT/GOVERNMENT HAS NO AUTHORITY TO DO ANYTHING BEYOND THAT WHICH IS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED FOR UNDER THE CONSTITUTION - THE MACEDONIAN CONSTITUTION DOES NOT PROVIDE IT WITH THE AUTHORITY TO NEGOTIATE WITH A FORIEGN STATE OVER THE CONTENTS OF THE CONSTITUTIION - HENCE IT IS NOT ALLOWD TO.

[quote=Buktop;32357]As stated by UMD the board of directors were elected in 2008 and are to hold terms of 3 years. You claimed that you were a member 2 years ago, and that the bylaws were being formed while you were there, I am pretty sure that elections would be on the original draft of the bylaws. I do not dispute your membership at UMD, I want to know your exact date of resignation and the exact date of approval of the bylaws (which were being drafted while you were a board member, which means you had a direct role in drafting them) I don't think that is a tough question, or a relatively sensitive question to answer.[/quote]

The Board was NOT elected in 2008 - the Board Members merely allocated themselves positions on the Board - no UMD member outside of the Board was even informed.

I did have a role in drafting the bylaws. You'll have to ask Meto the exact date they were adopted because I left before they were adopted.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32350]Charlatan,

Your defence is blind. I just provided a quote where UMD specifically called on Greece to abide by the Accord.[/QUOTE]
And that means they support the accord? Or they are trying to beat Greece at their own game. You really must be clutching at straws if this is your whole argument...

[quote=Buktop;32361]And that means they support the accord? Or they are trying to beat Greece at their own game.[/quote]

Wow...just wow

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32360]\
I did have a role in drafting the bylaws.[/QUOTE]
So how is it that you do not know the provision concerning elections? So why is it you claimed that you did not know the UMD bylaws? Why are you intentionally misrepresenting facts.
[quote]no UMD member outside of the Board was even informed.[/quote]How did you not know there were appointments or elections when as early as the beginning of February they were included in newsletters? You as a board member didn't know there would be appointments of board members? I find this very hard to believe...

[quote=Buktop;32366]So how is it that you do not know the provision concerning elections? So why is it you claimed that you did not know the UMD bylaws? Why are you intentionally misrepresenting facts.
How did you not know there were appointments or elections when as early as the beginning of February they were included in newsletters? You as a board member didn't know there would be appointments of board members? I find this very hard to believe...[/quote]

Buktop, I never claimed I didn't know the bylaws specified elections, I said that there never have been elections.

Are you getting confused? Can you try reading the post before automatically posting back?

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32359]Do you have a reading disability?

A REPUBLICAN PARLIAMENT/GOVERNMENT HAS NO AUTHORITY TO DO ANYTHING BEYOND THAT WHICH IS EXPRESSLY PROVIDED FOR UNDER THE CONSTITUTION - THE MACEDONIAN CONSTITUTION DOES NOT PROVIDE IT WITH THE AUTHORITY TO NEGOTIATE WITH A FORIEGN STATE OVER THE CONTENTS OF THE CONSTITUTIION - HENCE IT IS NOT ALLOWD TO.[/QUOTE]
AND I ASKED YOU TO PROVIDE THE RELEVANT ARTICLES PROHIBITING THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE PARLIAMENTARIANS...

UNLESS OTHERWISE PROHIBITED BY THE CONSTITUTION, ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE PARLIAMENTARIANS ARE DESIGNATED TO BE WITHIN THEIR AUTHORITY...

The non-existence of clauses within the constitution does not prohibit action.

[quote=Buktop;32368]AND I ASKED YOU TO PROVIDE THE RELEVANT ARTICLES PROHIBITING THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE PARLIAMENTARIANS...

UNLESS OTHERWISE PROHIBITED BY THE CONSTITUTION, ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE PARLIAMENTARIANS ARE DESIGNATED TO BE WITHIN THEIR AUTHORITY...

The non-existence of clauses within the constitution does not prohibit action.[/quote]

You're talking about a tyranny, where state power is absolute. I thought we were discussing a republic.

Charlatan, wait, I'll just go and lobotomise myself. Then maybe I'll be able to accept your ridiculous assumptions.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32367]Buktop, I never claimed I didn't know the bylaws specified elections, I said that there never have been elections. I knew that the board members (co-founders) appointed themselves - nobody else did, i.e., the normal members?

Are you getting confused?[/QUOTE]
Oh so you knew that the bylaws called for elections? Why then were you trying to make such a big fuss about it in the other thread? Did the bylaws not specify a 3 year term for board members? Or did you conveniently forget that part?

[quote=Buktop;32370]Oh so you knew that the bylaws called for elections? Why then were you trying to make such a big fuss about it in the other thread? Did the bylaws not specify a 3 year term for board members? Or did you conveniently forget that part?[/quote]

The Board was never elected - it appointed itself!!!!!!!!!!!!!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:yawn:

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32369]Buktop, wait, I'll just go and labotomise myself. Then maybe I'll be able to accept your ridiculous assumptions.[/QUOTE]Don't worry, I'll wait for you to finish.

Actions are considered within the authority of the constitution unless otherwise prohibited by the constitution.

Once more, quote for us all here the relevant constitutional clauses that prohibit the actions taken by the government.

Charlatan, the Government can ONLY do what the Constitution says it can - otherwise it has no authority - not the other way around. What your putting forward is NOT a republic - look at what your own founding fathers thought about it.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32371]The Board was never elected - it appointed itself!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]Who else but the founders would compose the first board of UMD? Are you that ignorant? Here maybe you'll understand this... (doubtful)

Oh so you knew that the bylaws [U]included[/U] elections [U]after 3 years[/U]? Why then were you trying to make such a big fuss about it in the other thread? Did the bylaws not specify a 3 year term for board members? Or did you conveniently forget that part?

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32374]Charlatan, the Government can ONLY do what the Constitution says it can - otherwise it has no authority - not the other way around. What your putting forward is NOT a republic - look at what your own founding fathers thought about it.[/QUOTE]
There is intentional ambiguity in the constitutions of all governments to allow for the possibility of development and so that amendments can be made in relation to new situations.

UNLESS OTHERWISE PROHIBITED BY THE CONSTITUTION THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE PARLIAMENTARIANS IS LEGAL.

Wherever it is that you got your law degree (though I am 100% sure you don't have one) you should ask for a refund.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;32362]Wow...just wow[/QUOTE]

Wow is right, you have nothing better to do than take up space in this thread with stupid posts like this.

[QUOTE=Pelister;31473]There is also this which I will ADD to the list.

President of UMD, Source: "A Name to reckon with" Sunday, May 4, 2008, Opinion Piece in the Washington Times:



UMD is a foriegn policy tool of the West to destroy us.

Nothing more.[/QUOTE]
UMD are PREDAVNICI , I STRONGLY urge them all SWING from a ROPE.

[quote=Buktop;32377]UNLESS OTHERWISE PROHIBITED BY THE CONSTITUTION THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE PARLIAMENTARIANS IS LEGAL.[/quote]

Charlatan,

You're ridiculousness will forever be immortalised here - Lubi is not here to delete your garbage and cover your butt. By you're "logic" Parliamantarians can "legally" do ANYTHING as long as it is not specifically prohibited by the constitution!?!?!?! Does this include fraud? Fraud isn't specifically prohibited by the constitution.

Let it be known that your suggested punishment is your own view and not the one of the MTO or 99% of its members. I certainly don't wish that upon them, and it is probably best advised that you not make such 'urges' in future. Thanks.

[QUOTE=ZAS;32381]UMD are PREDAVNICI , I STRONGLY urge them all SWING from a ROPE.[/QUOTE]

ZAS, I question your intentions far more than UMD's intentions.

I am of the same view.