Here are [B]SOME [/B]of the highly questionable public statements that have been made by UMD and/or UMD Board Members. Comments I have made are in italics.

[B]ONE[/B]
Meto Koloski on Macedonian Media Monitor
[url]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MacedonianMediaMonitor/message/10565[/url]
13 March 2008

Who are you calling naive activists? Who is trying to change our name?

[B]We have to be realistic, Macedonia if it wants to join NATO and EU it
has to join under a modified name[/B] for those organizations ONLY.

How happy are you that we are called "The former Yugoslav Republic of
Macedonia" in NATO, UN, and EU? I'm not....[B]wouldn't you prefer us to
be called something like Democratic Republic of Macedonia instead[/B], IF ALL ELSE FAILS, of course? [B]I sure would[/B]. However, until all else
fails, our position is double formula.

Meto


[B]TWO[/B]
On Meto Koloski on ZMR
(at 1:38 minutes - [url=http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivd4m8MLstk]YouTube - ZMR United Macedonian Diaspora - Macedonia Name[/url])

..."we feel that perhaps a [B]political modifier such as Democratic might be more acceptable[/B] only for international use to get rid of this erroneous name the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"...


[B]THREE[/B]
Meto Koloski's Opinion Piece in the Washington Times
[url]http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/may/04/a-name-to-reckon-with/[/url]

A name to reckon with
Sunday, May 4, 2008

...[B]It was Greece, not Macedonia, that rejected the most recent proposal[/B] to resolve the "name dispute." Moreover, [B]Greece's veto violated the 1995 Interim Accord[/B] that it signed with Macedonia, which binds Greece's right to veto Macedonia's NATO bid or any other international organization that Macedonia would like to join [B]as long as it joins under the U.N. provisional reference term used to identify Macedonia[/B]...
[I]
This is not only legitimising the Interim Accord, but is implying that Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) was a good proposal and condemning Greece for rejecting the proposal.[/I]


[B]FOUR[/B]
UMD Sends Letter to U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice Regarding Greece
Thursday, 14 February 2008
[url]http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/305/51/[/url]

...American policy on Macedonia’s NATO admission is in alignment with [B]Article 11 of the Interim Accord, which bars Greece from impeding Macedonia’s accession to international bodies, including NATO, as long as Macedonia accedes under the Provisional Reference[/B]. A veto of Macedonia’s NATO admission based on Greece’s objection to Macedonia’s name would nullify the Interim Accord...

...The 1995 [B]Interim Accord [/B]between Macedonia and Greece [B]normalized relations[/B], ended an illegal Greek trade embargo, and [B]allowed Macedonia’s admission to the United Nations under the provisional reference term, “The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” [/B](the “Provisional Reference”)...


[B]FIVE[/B]
UMD Condemns Greek Threat to Veto Macedonia’s NATO Membership
Sunday, 24 February 2008
[url]http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/309/1/[/url]

…The Prime Minister’s threat shows that [B]Macedonia, or any other nation, cannot rely on the Hellenic Republic to honor its treaty obligations as this threat violates the 1995 Interim Agreement[/B] between the two nations. [B]Under Article 11 of the Interim Agreement, the Hellenic Republic must allow Macedonia’s entry into any international organization provided that Macedonia enters under a certain provisional reference term used at the UN to refer to it[/B]. The Interim Agreement is in full force and [B]Macedonia is willing to accede to NATO under the provisional reference[/B].

Recent events reveal that [B]the “intransigent” party to the “dispute” is not Macedonia, but the Hellenic Republic[/B]. Macedonia changed its flag, amended its constitution, and [B]accepted the use of the provisional reference all pursuant to the Interim Agreement and has fully abided by such agreement[/B]. Despite Macedonia’s unprecedented concessions and its adherence to the Interim Agreement, the Hellenic Republic continues its quixotic campaign against Macedonia and the Macedonian people.

[B]Prime Minister Karamanlis’ government has also proven to be an untrustworthy party to the UN mediated talks to resolve the “dispute.”[/B] Just last week the Hellenic Republic again leaked sensitive proposals presented to both nations to resolve the “dispute” to the Greek media despite its promise to keep such proposals confidential. This was not the first time that the Hellenic Republic has disrupted the UN mediated talks in such a manner…

… [B]The United Macedonian Diaspora urges Greece to end its diplomatic blackmail and abide by the rules to which it agreed to in the Interim Agreement[/B].


[B]SIX[/B]
UMD Dismayed By Greece's Veto of Macedonia
Thursday, 03 April 2008
[url]http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/321/53/[/url]

…The Greek veto violates the 1995 United Nations brokered Interim Accord between Macedonia and Greece, which barred Greece from using the "name dispute" to impede Macedonia's NATO accession…


[B]SEVEN[/B]
UMD Calls for Suspension of “Name Dispute” Negotiations
Wednesday, 15 October 2008
[url]http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/364/51/[/url]

The United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) today called upon the Government of the Republic of Macedonia to [B]suspend [/B]UN brokered talks to resolve the Hellenic Republic’s* baseless objection to Macedonia’s name.

“[B]The most recent attempt to resolve the dispute proposed by UN mediator, Ambassador Matthew Nimetz, is being stymied by Athens[/B] because it does not advance Athens’ desire to extinguish Macedonian ethnic and national consciousness,” stated UMD President Metodija A. Koloski. “[B]Rather than constructively participating in these negotiations, Athens merely waits for proposals from Ambassador Nimetz, rejects them out of hand[/B], and then threatens Macedonia with a continued veto of Macedonia’s entry into NATO and now it has compounded that tactic with a threat to veto Macedonia’s EU membership,” added Koloski.

Athens instigated the “name dispute” when it objected to Macedonia’s name in 1991. [B]A 1995 UN-brokered Interim Accord between Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic normalized relations between the two neighboring countries. This accord established the current negotiations. Since the start of the negotiations, Macedonia, unlike the Hellenic Republic, has proposed solutions to the “dispute.” The Hellenic Republic, however, has proposed not one solution, and even blatantly violated the Interim Accord by vetoing Macedonia’s admission to NATO based solely on its unilateral objection to Macedonia’s name[/B].

“[B]Ambassador Nimetz and Macedonia have worked diligently to resolve the dispute, but the negotiations cannot succeed unless the Hellenic Republic ends its unilateral opposition and agrees to negotiate in good faith.[/B] The Hellenic Republic’s practice of insisting on intractable and extreme positions in the negotiations is the means by which the current Greek government manages to extend the dispute and exploit it for domestic political gain. [B] While UMD seldom agrees with the Hellenic Republic’s Foreign Minister, we agree with her recent statement that it “‘takes two to tango” [/B]and that Macedonia must “accept reality” when it comes to this dispute,’” said Koloski who concluded that “more in sorrow than in anger, UMD calls upon the Macedonian Government to accept the reality that [B]Athens is a disingenuous and untrustworthy negotiating partner[/B], that continuing the UN sponsored talks is futile, that Athens and Athens alone has frustrated the current negotiations, and that Macedonia should take the necessary steps to [B]suspend [/B]the current negotiations.”

In closing, Koloski stated, “It is unfortunate that this dispute cannot be resolved, but Macedonia should not allow itself to be held hostage by the intransigence and threats of the Hellenic Republic over Macedonia’s admission into NATO and the EU. Moreover, given Athens’ conduct to date, it is reasonable to conclude that the Hellenic Republic will continue to impede Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, regardless of progress in the negotiations. This situation will continue unless and until Athens successfully extorts a new name of its own choosing not just for Macedonia but also for the Macedonian people and the Macedonian language. It is the position of UMD that none of these fall under the purview of or may be dictated by the Hellenic Republic. Rather, these are the sovereign property of the Macedonian people.”
[B]
* The Hellenic Republic is the constitutional name of Greece.[/B]

[I]Isn't it nice that UMD refers to Greece by its constitutional name?[/I]

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;8851]If I may propose a hypothetical scenario for just a moment, I would like to know what are the immediate and long-term implications if the Macedonian state were to pull out of this illegal negotiation for our name?

What is the worst that could possibly happen?

What do we stand to gain?

I see two camps here, one calling for the immediate withdrawal of these negotiation and let the chips fall where they may, and the other calling for more time to better prepare for the exit, I think there are pros and cons in both arguments that can be explored, which is why this particular topic has evolved the way it has, what I am sure of is that everybody taking part in this discussion loves Macedonia and wants what is best, only the differing methods hold back any sort of unison.[/QUOTE]

SoM,

Volk, and some of his like-minded scaremongers are alluding to an 'economic embargo'. There are two key points to keep in mind:

1. The 1995 embargo was 'unilateral' - Macedonia never reciprocated and Greek products were free to cross the Macedonian border.

2. Greece would not only be hurting the investments of private Greek companies, but of other foreign companies were it to instigate another embargo.

3. Greece is already placing embargo's on certain Macedonian products and Macedonia again is not reciprocating.

You bring up an interesting point Vangelovski, would Greece risk the damage which would be caused to Greek businesses in Macedonia? They have alot of investments in the country, and if things get to a hectic point where we find ourselves under extreme pressure or in a state of retaliation, they will lose them and all that comes with it.

What about the IC, what negative implication will there be from them? Are we going to be booted out of the UN or some other organisation? Embargo? Sanctions? Is standing for our god-given right enough to provoke those idiots into taking it that far?

I think its important to keep things in perspective - we're talking about national sovereignty and human rights, not nuclear weapons or ethnic cleansing.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8860]I think its important to keep things in perspective - we're talking about national sovereignty and human rights, not nuclear weapons or ethnic cleansing.[/QUOTE]
I agree, this is what any normal person would assume, but do you think the IC and UN would take such drastic steps and turn completely against us?

Because if not, that leaves Greece as the only problem, and I am confident that we can handle her.

I highly doubt anyone in the "international community" really cares about what we call ourselves, they have much more pressing issues to deal with - the Middle East, international terrorism, climate change etc.

The reason anyone listened to Greece's hysterics in the first place is because they saw the Macedonian Government's readiness to capitulate and took the path of least resistance. If the Macedonian Government took an assertive stance to begin with, I think we would be in a very different situation today.

Given its politics and position regarding the name and the negotiations, I would say that UMD is very dangerous organization for Macedonian history, culture and identity; more so because it has direct access to the Macedonian leadership.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8854]SoM,

Volk, and some of his like-minded scaremongers are alluding to an 'economic embargo'. There are two key points to keep in mind:

1. The 1995 embargo was 'unilateral' - Macedonia never reciprocated and Greek products were free to cross the Macedonian border.

2. Greece would not only be hurting the investments of private Greek companies, but of other foreign companies were it to instigate another embargo.

3. Greece is already placing embargo's on certain Macedonian products and Macedonia [B]again is not reciprocating[/B].[/QUOTE]


This is a very good opinion in sum...

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;8855]You bring up an interesting point Vangelovski, [B]would Greece risk the damage which would be caused to Greek businesses in Macedonia[/B]? They have alot of investments in the country, and if things get to a hectic point where we find ourselves under extreme pressure or in a state of retaliation, they will lose them and all that comes with it.

[/QUOTE]


The 'invisible' or 'silent' embargo, that Macedonia (at least the influential part of ) is promoting is a lot more successful than actual- official embargo.
The current policy is to manifest a higher consciousness,or to regain it back.
Promoting high moral and patriotic appeal to the ppl is causing very inopportunely climate for Greek companies and products.

This give us advantage, because we don't have to deal with some consequences in the foreign relations.

The Greek agressive and hostile policy is reflecting on our national intercourse, which push us the normal ppl to demonstrate a reflection on a local level, with boycotting everything Greek.
So they are suffering radically from the aversion they have produced of a simple mentioning 'Greece' among the masses.


And now speaking for their 'investments'.
About what investment are we talking about?

The banks cannot be considered as real investition for us, since they are in Greek hands.
They knot our capital by holding our money in their banks. They control a good part of the credit system in our economy.

It wasn't an accident that Putin has limited the foreign investments in Russia, since today the modern wars are being done on a corporation level, by economical conquering.

Our biggest mistake was the OKTA deal. But it's too late to moan now.
A serious country cares about the national interests and doesn't sell the most valuable capital resources.

The rest of their 'investment' in the country is pure exploiting of the labour. All of those Greek 'confections' should be banned permanently!

The reality is that good part of the Greeks doing 'business' in Macedonia are in charge of Greek inteligence.

The big companies that get involved in Macedonia, such as the French bank "Société Générale" which bought the Ohrid bank (as one example of the now many) hold some significant political influence in their home countries.

They would not like to lose money on their investments in Macedonia on the account of Greece's nationalism.

The political, economic and diplomatic landscape is much different today than it was some 15 years ago and Greece cannot declare an unilateral embargo on Macedonia - or if it does, it will be unable to maintain it for very long.

I think the suggestion that Greece will initiate an embargo on Macedonia if we were to end the negotiations and move toward a UN Resolution on the name is un-realistic and those who suggest it do not consider all the factors that are involved which make it quite an unrealistic move.

So Rogi, would you think it secure and/or solid enough for us to pull out of the talks now?

If not, what benefits do you see if we stay in the talks?

Rogi,

A UN Resolution (Security Council or General Assembly) is worse - rather than having just Greece exercising a say on our name, you would then be inviting multiple countries to get involved, even up to nearly 200 in the General Assembly. And for what purpose? Who are any of them to "vote" on what our name should be? What right do any of them have to determine our name?

If you're interested in exercising sovereignty, then you simply send a note to all states that have diplomatic relations with Macedonia and to all organisations that Macedonia is a member of and inform them that from now on end, they will refer to us as 'Macedonia'.

Sovereignty needs to be assertive and it needs to be exercised, not begged for, and not voted on by foreign governments.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8935]Rogi,

A UN Resolution (Security Council or General Assembly) is worse - rather than having just Greece exercising a say on our name, you would then be inviting multiple countries to get involved, even up to nearly 200 in the General Assembly. And for what purpose? Who are any of them to "vote" on what our name should be? What right do any of them have to determine our name?

[SIZE="5"]If you're interested in exercising sovereignty, then you simply send a note to all states that have diplomatic relations with Macedonia and to all organisations that Macedonia is a member of and inform them that from now on end, they will refer to us as 'Macedonia'.[/SIZE]

Sovereignty needs to be assertive and it needs to be exercised, not begged for, and not voted on by foreign governments.[/QUOTE]

Thats it in a nutshell for me Vangelovski.

Giving people the opportunity "to vote" on what OUR name should be - is giving ALL the power in regards to who we are over to others.

[QUOTE]SoM,

Volk, and some of his like-minded scaremongers are alluding to an 'economic embargo'. There are two key points to keep in mind:

1. The 1995 embargo was 'unilateral' - Macedonia never reciprocated and Greek products were free to cross the Macedonian border.

2. Greece would not only be hurting the investments of private Greek companies, but of other foreign companies were it to instigate another embargo.

3. Greece is already placing embargo's on certain Macedonian products and Macedonia again is not reciprocating.[/QUOTE]

So now that I am advocating a policy where the country would be in a position to absorb an economic attack on the country I am a scaremonger?

What else can greece do if we abandon the talks??

They will take a course to directly destroy our state, they will not coincide defeat for the sake for a few million dollars.

I believe their last option will be an attempt to destabilize the country.
Economic embargo is easiest way to achieve this as the siptars will be screaming they do not want to live in such country.

If you think an embargo is scare mongering please enlighten everyone by giving us your thought on what they would do? nothing? They are already trying to destroy our nation.

If some of you think they will not be willing to exercise an embargo (illegal like the first one) because they have invested so much, look at the invested amount and compare it to the size of their economy and their desire to absorb Macedonia as a hellenic identity...

I am not saying we should remain in the talks, I am advocating we remain in the 'talks' until reasonable countermeasures have been realized, like using crna gora as a port, the building of stip cargo airport and corridor 8 (if its viable)

BTW, your 'evidence' against the UMD is just statements of political posturing.

[QUOTE]our position is double formula.[/QUOTE]
Now read all the 'evidence' keeping this in mind, it might help you understand it better.

[QUOTE]We have to be realistic, Macedonia if it wants to join NATO and EU it
has to join under a modified name for those organizations ONLY.[/QUOTE]
This I dont agree with whatsoever.

Vangelovski, wouldn't you better our cause by spending your time attacking organisations that are actually trying to eliminate our nation and not Macedonian ones with whose ideologies or wording you disagree with?

Tom, I don't believe that's a realistic option in the UN, because a previous UN Resolution exists- even if we declare that resolution as null and void, that doesn't mean the UN will, does it?

[QUOTE="Volk"]I am not saying we should remain in the talks, I am advocating we remain in the 'talks' until reasonable countermeasures have been realized, like using crna gora as a port, the building of stip cargo airport and corridor 8 (if its viable)[/QUOTE]
Volk, can we consider how long a wait there will be until these have been realized, in your opinion, what are we looking at, 6 months, 12 months, etc?

Also Volk, what are the implications of another Greek embargo, are we still that dependant on them, and if so, for what exactly? The (occupied) Macedonian ports? The inward/outward goods and trade relations the Greeks? How do we lose with the introduction of a Greek embargo against us?

Volk,

Its not the Greek State that has invested in Macedonia - its PRIVATE investors who's financial interests directly clash with the political adventurism of the Greek Government. And its not only Greek companies that have invested in Macedonia - companies based in other countries have as well.

Greece got away so lightly in 1995 because the cowards in the Macedonian Government did not reciprocate the embargo. They enforced an embargo on Macedonia without having to worry that the Macedonian Government might close the Macedonian side of the border.

The measures you are talking about are good, I'm not disputing their usefulness, but you should keep things in perspective about potential Greek "retaliation".

[QUOTE=Volk;8946]BTW, your 'evidence' against the UMD is just statements of political posturing.


Now read all the 'evidence' keeping this in mind, it might help you understand it better.


This I dont agree with whatsoever.

Vangelovski, wouldn't you better our cause by spending your time attacking organisations that are actually trying to eliminate our nation and not Macedonian ones with whose ideologies or wording you disagree with?[/QUOTE]

Volk,

UMD made those statements, not me. Read the post, visit the links - they are the exact words of UMD. I merely copied and pasted them.

I don't agree with MPO or SDSM - should I leave them alone as well?

Maybe you should try and understand (I've already explained it to you on Maknews) what the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement actually mean for Macedonia.

[QUOTE=Rogi;8947]Tom, I don't believe that's a realistic option in the UN, because a previous UN Resolution exists- even if we declare that resolution as null and void, that doesn't mean the UN will, does it?[/QUOTE]

How many UN Security Council Resolutions have been abided by? Particularly ones that undermine national sovereignty, which according to the UN charter is illegal in itself.

The UN is nothing more than a group of sovereign states - none need the permission of any other or the group as a whole to exercise their own SOVEREIGNTY.

Think of it like this - You have common interests and even work together with your neighbour and the Board Members of UMD, but do you ask your neighbour or the Board Members of UMD if and when you can be intimate with your partner?

Our freedom is our most intimate "political partner" - if we have to consult others on if and when we choose to exercise our freedom, then we don't really have it and eventually someone will come and take it away completely. Its the same with your "romantic partner". If your constantly asking your neighbour what to do, one day he'll come over and show you.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;8948]Volk, can we consider how long a wait there will be until these have been realized, in your opinion, what are we looking at, 6 months, 12 months, etc?

Also Volk, what are the implications of another Greek embargo, are we still that dependant on them, and if so, for what exactly? The (occupied) Macedonian ports? The inward/outward goods and trade relations the Greeks? How do we lose with the introduction of a Greek embargo against us?[/QUOTE]

Once we have established crna gora as our sea port and build a international cargo airport our reliance of greece greatly diminishes.
I am unsure of the time frame but a realistic estimate would be 1 - 2 years, hopefully earlier.

The embargo crippled us in 95 because our border to serbia was shut, we simply had no access to the international market. We are not in the same situation now, however an embargo would number 1 stop any future and current foreign investments, ruin our image, cut the economy by , I am estimating 20% with thousands losing their jobs. This coupled with the world financial crisis which has already effected the industrial and textile sector would be a setback of 10 years. The albanians are a critical factor in this as well, they will scream why should be pay for your name.

Completing corridor 8 (west to east Macedonia) would mean we are not bound by the blackmails of the south. albania would then be our port, bulgaria is within immediate access (currently there is no infrastructure).

Dont get me wrong, if we abandoned the talks tomorrow I would be cheering up and down finally at least of ending the humiliation. However we need the plans in place to absorb the damage, another year or so will not kill us taking into account the ramifications.

Meanwhile the 'greeks' can drive to serbia on Aleksandar Makedonski highway :D

[QUOTE]Its not the Greek State that has invested in Macedonia - its PRIVATE investors who's financial interests directly clash with the political adventurism of the Greek Government. And its not only Greek companies that have invested in Macedonia - companies based in other countries have as well.
[/QUOTE]

I am aware of this, however I dont believe they will give up the dispute just for the sake of money that the EU will hand feed them regardless.

[QUOTE]Maybe you should try and understand (I've already explained it to you on Maknews) what the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement actually mean for Macedonia.[/QUOTE]
I am very familiar with what they actually mean for our nation, the only thing we do not agree upon is the timing. You are advocating opening a front on two sides simultaneously. Partnering the greeks with the albanians, this is not a good strategy.

[QUOTE=Volk;8952]The embargo crippled us in 95 because our border to serbia was shut, we simply had to access to the international market. We are not in the same situation now, however an[B] embargo would number 1 stop any future and current foreign investments, ruin our image, cut the economy by , I am estimating 20% with thousands losing their jobs.[/B] This coupled with the world financial crisis which has already effected the [B]industrial and textile sector would be a setback of 10 years[/B]. The albanians are a critical factor in this as well, they will scream why should be pay for your name.[/QUOTE]

Volk,

This is scaremongering. How about you try and substantiate some of these very specific claims? Maybe try with the ones I've highlighted?

[QUOTE=Volk;8953]I am aware of this, however I dont believe they will give up the dispute just for the sake of money that the EU will hand feed them regardless.


I am very familiar with what they actually mean for our nation, the only thing we do not agree upon is the timing. You are advocating opening a front on two sides simultaneously. Partnering the greeks with the albanians, this is not a good strategy.[/QUOTE]

Volk,

If you were aware of what the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement meant for Macedonia, I don't think we'd be having this conversation or the many previous ones on Maknews. Nor would you dismiss UMD's support of these "agreements" as simple "posturing". There is no reason to "look moderate" by supporting treason and undermining our national sovereignty and human rights. In my view, UMD is an "extremist" organisation in that its fanatically pursuing an anti-sovereignty and anti-human rights position just so it can "look moderate".

[QUOTE="Volk"]The embargo crippled us in 95 because our border to serbia was shut, we simply had no access to the international market. We are not in the same situation now, however an embargo would number 1 stop any future and current foreign investments, ruin our image, cut the economy by , I am estimating 20% with thousands losing their jobs. This coupled with the world financial crisis which has already effected the industrial and textile sector would be a setback of 10 years. The albanians are a critical factor in this as well, they will scream why should be pay for your name.[/QUOTE]
A Greek embargo would stop any future and current investments from Greece though, not from any other countries (or will it?), and this is where my question is, do we really need Greek investments to survive as a state? Or is more so the access to the port which is a necessity for us to trade with others? Are we putting too much emphasis on the influence of Greece, or not enough?

In the worst-case scenario, what survival options do we have at our disposal were we to tell the Greeks to shove their 'talks' and withdraw altogether?

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8954]Volk,

This is scaremongering. How about you try and substantiate some of these very specific claims? Maybe try with the ones I've highlighted?[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]however an embargo would number 1 stop any future and current foreign investments,[/QUOTE]
You dont agree with this? If so I think your a bit naive. Which company would want to invest millions into a country when they cannot find a route to export their products?

[QUOTE]ruin our image[/QUOTE]
The extent of this depends on the situation and media coverage on the ground. If the scenario erupts in violence from the siptari which is a possibility then undoubtedly it would ruin our image. What I am trying to say is any destabilization of the country would hurt our image.

Thousands of workers are employed by greek owned companies, this is a fact.

Maybe you would point out why these things would not happen. Would it not be prudent and good planing to prapare for these scenarios and aviod or minimize their effect?

I am happy to answer your questions and have a debate however you have not bothered to answer mine and by avoiding them weakening your argument.

Volk,

You still haven't substantiated any of your specific claims nor are you taking into consideration the damage that Greece would cause to its own economy, its own private investors in Macedonia, other European investors in Macedonia, Greece's own ongoing economic problems and its social unrest (which we witnessed over the past month).

Like I said earlier, the Montenegro and Stip options are good, but even when they are up and running, the usual suspects (defeatists and scaremongers) will find new reasons not to withdraw from negotiations - they've been predicting imminent doom for 20 years now.

Have courage and be resolute :)

[QUOTE=Rogi;8931]The big companies that get involved in Macedonia, such as the French bank "Société Générale" which bought the Ohrid bank (as one example of the now many) hold some significant political influence in their home countries.

They would not like to lose money on their investments in Macedonia on the account of Greece's nationalism.

The political, economic and diplomatic landscape is much different today than it was some 15 years ago and Greece cannot declare an unilateral embargo on Macedonia - or if it does, [B]it will be unable to maintain it for very long.[/B]
[U]I think the suggestion that Greece will initiate an embargo on Macedonia if we were to end the negotiations[/U] and move toward a UN Resolution on the name is un-realistic and those who suggest it do not consider all the factors that are involved which make it quite an unrealistic move.[/QUOTE]

I agree, Societe Generale is part of a huge corporation. With big influence.

But, can you explain more 'plastically' how they will lose their investment if Greece put an embargo?

And don't you think that such embargo, on part of the foreign investors in MK would have other development than suggested upper?

On a contrary, from what have been proved in practice so far, the reaction of the foreign investors wont be directed towards Greece, but there gonna be initiated huge international pressure from the domestic countries of those companies, toward Macedonian government to accept the Greek demanding and to change the name.

Thats how the eventual embargo would reflect. Thats why I am personally bitter from our politicians.



[QUOTE=Pelister;8936]Thats it in a nutshell for me Vangelovski.

Giving people the opportunity "to vote" on what OUR name should be - is giving ALL the power in regards to who we are over to others.[/QUOTE]

I agree.

[QUOTE=Volk;8952][B]Once we have established crna gora as our sea port and build a international cargo airport our reliance of greece greatly diminishes. [/B]I am unsure of the time frame but a realistic estimate would be 1 - 2 years, hopefully earlier.

The embargo crippled us in 95 because our border to serbia was shut, we simply had no access to the international market. We are not in the same situation now, however an embargo would number 1 stop any future and current foreign investments, ruin our image, cut the economy by , [B]I am estimating 20% with thousands losing their jobs[/B]. This coupled with the world financial crisis which has already effected the industrial and textile sector would be a setback of 10 years. The albanians are a critical factor in this as well, they will scream why should be pay for your name.

[B]Completing corridor 8 (west to east Macedonia) would mean we are not bound by the blackmails of the south. albania would then be our port, bulgaria is within immediate access (currently there is no infrastructure).[/B]

Dont get me wrong, if we abandoned the talks tomorrow I would be cheering up and down finally at least of ending the humiliation. However we need the plans in place to absorb the damage, another year or so will not kill us taking into account the ramifications.

Meanwhile the 'greeks' can drive to serbia on Aleksandar Makedonski highway :D[/QUOTE]

Don't get me wrong either. But the crucial question, no matter which political party is ruling, WHY THE HECK, SO FAR NON OF THIS STRATEGICALLY SIGNIFICANT STEPS ARE NOT DONE?

They are not even started, they should be our priority. But instead of it, the building of the railways to Bulgaria are blocked, to Albania too, nothing happening with the such loudly promoted cargo airport in Shtip etc.

As I often say.. someone among us..is not 'our'. ( nekoj megju nas ne e "nash" )

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;8956]A Greek embargo would stop any future and current investments from Greece though, not from any other countries (or will it?), and this is where my question is, do we really need Greek investments to survive as a state? Or is more so the access to the port which is a necessity for us to trade with others? Are we putting too much emphasis on the influence of Greece, or not enough?

In the worst-case scenario, what survival options do we have at our disposal were we to tell the Greeks to shove their 'talks' and withdraw altogether?[/QUOTE]

Maybe we are putting too much emphasis on their influence, but I totally agree that all future development would be questioned if we are dealing with embargo under this conditions which are actual now in this moment.

[QUOTE=Volk;8957]You dont agree with this? If so I think your a bit naive. [U]Which company would want to invest millions into a country when they cannot find a route to export their products?[/U]


The extent of this depends on the situation and media coverage on the ground. If the scenario erupts in violence from the siptari which is a possibility then undoubtedly it would ruin our image. What I am trying to say is any destabilization of the country would hurt our image.

[B]Thousands of workers are employed by greek owned companies, this is a fact.[/B]


Maybe you would point out why these things would not happen[B]. Would it not be prudent and good planing to prapare for these scenarios and aviod or minimize their effect?[/B]

I am happy to answer your questions and have a debate however you have not bothered to answer mine and by avoiding them weakening your argument.[/QUOTE]

Can you please justify the number.. - thousands? Lets hear what is the actual number, because this way of presenting the arguments make unrealistic predictions.

Thousands can be 2, 30, 200.000... give me a number, justified.


Yes, we should prepare. And what are we waiting so far?

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8960]Volk,

You still haven't substantiated any of your specific claims nor are you taking into consideration the damage that Greece would cause to its own economy, its own private investors in Macedonia, other European investors in Macedonia, Greece's own ongoing economic problems and its social unrest (which we witnessed over the past month).

Like I said earlier, the Montenegro and Stip options are good, but even when they are up and running, the usual suspects (defeatists and scaremongers) will find new reasons not to withdraw from negotiations - they've been predicting imminent doom for 20 years now.

Have courage and be resolute![/QUOTE]


The courage is not enough alone, first you need a brain in order not to waste it for nothing.

The embargo, eventual, will have big impact on our economy and in general reflecting on our position.
Thats the truth.

Until someone, accomplish those strategic projects of national interest, the railway,airport etc.

The unofficial embargo, which Greece have done to us in the beggining of last year, had a pretty big impact on us.



There were efforts to lay on the USA support and to use 'our' partnership, by enforcing a new Draft resolution by the Security Council re-admitting Republic of Macedonia to the United Nations under its Constitutional name.

This idea [B]( with ready Draft resolution text ) [/B]was sent to our government and personally to Mr. Gruevski.
We even took the freedom to adress the U.S. embassy in Macedonia.

But, the reality is, we don't have a real partners in anyone, to relay on.

Bratot,

The only reason Greek embargoes have any effect, is because the Macedonian Government does not RECIPROCATE. Its too scared that it will "look bad" in front of its foreign masters.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8979]Bratot,

The only reason Greek embargoes have any effect, is because the Macedonian Government does not RECIPROCATE. Its too scared that it will "look bad" in front of its foreign masters.[/QUOTE]

This is it.
Anyone who suggests Macedonia has something to lose by aggressively defending its rights in the worldwide community is simply another victim! Every time I go to Macedonia, everyone whinges their arse off about how bad it is. How much worse could it get? What would be so bad if the Macedonians assert their rights, suffer a fraction more (possibly) from Greek embargoes, then have a solid foundation from which to build a sovereign nation from? In fact, by forcing Greece to show its nasty hand, it would shame them in the worldwide community.

Not difficult stuff. Macedonia has nothing to lose.

I think both of you should spend more time in Macedonia living the everyday reality. No offence.

I can only partially agree with you.

Bratot,

There are many people in Macedonia that advocate the same thing - including the members of Dostoinstvo who participated in 2001. Maybe you should tell them the same thing? There are also millions of people across the world living in similar or worse conditions and they have not problems with asserting their national sovereignty or human rights. Maybe you should also tell them the same thing?

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8979]Bratot,

The only reason Greek embargoes have any effect, is because the Macedonian Government does not RECIPROCATE. Its too scared that it will "look bad" in front of its foreign masters.[/QUOTE]

I agree, we are sissies.


[QUOTE=Risto the Great;8980]This is it.
Anyone who suggests Macedonia has something to lose by aggressively defending its rights in the worldwide community[U] [B]is simply another victim![/B] Every time I go to Macedonia, everyone whinges their arse off about how bad it is.[[/U]B] How much worse could it get? [/B]What would be so bad if the Macedonians assert their rights, suffer a fraction more (possibly) from Greek embargoes, then have a solid foundation from which to build a sovereign nation from? In fact, by forcing Greece to show its nasty hand, it would shame them in the worldwide community.

Not difficult stuff. Macedonia has nothing to lose.[/QUOTE]


Risto,

To be fair in this case, when you ask "How much worse could it get?" you should also provide an answer to :
"How long this will take?" or "How long it's gonna be like this?", and
"What are our options and alternatives?"


Macedonia is loosing already, we lose the valuable [B]time[/B] to progress, in every meaning.


And thats why i'm so angry to all politicians, who never manage to move us a step further.

As VOLK said, [I]we should do that and that and that.... [/I]So why the fuk nobody is doing his job, for which btw.. are being paid by the ppl of Macedonia.

Somebody is using this, somebody makes a profit from this situation and is working against our national interests!

Another thing, dont criticise the ppl. They have put up with too much shit so far. All they want is equal chance to advance in life. A better opportunity for the youth.

It's not right to point out at them, because they are not guilty for the bad governing.
So far, there is no [B]national strategy[/B].

And by blaming the ppl, or the system... w/e, we never gonna get out of this situation.

Everyone should take his own responsibility. Untill then, by looking the fault in the ppl or the system, instead of teling who is responsible with a full name and position, we are providing the same group of ppl to tear up our country.


Thats why we are damned to have Crvenkovski for a President, and to have a whole bunch of cretinous political lining.



[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8984]Bratot,

There are many people in Macedonia that advocate the same thing - including the members of Dostoinstvo who participated in 2001. Maybe you should tell them the same thing? [B]There are also millions of people across the world living in similar or worse conditions and they have not problems with asserting their national sovereignty or human rights[/B]. Maybe you should also tell them the same thing?[/QUOTE]


And what do you offer to them?

To suffer while you comment from a safe distance?


Don't overvalue yourself in own arrogance Vangelovski.
While we are speaking, the Parlament rejected the request of Dostoinstvo and rest of the war participants.
Their status..is even or worse with the status of those who fought against them!
Ask yourself if that not gonna break their faith in the state which they deffended. At least in a good part of them.

If time to fight come again, they gonna stand up as much as rest of the ppl, because after a while..living in a misery, you dont have much to lose.

But not only you, no one has the right to hazard with the lives of the ppl.
So let's stop crapping and lecturing what [B]should[/B] be done, lets act!

[QUOTE=Bratot;8987]
Another thing, dont criticise the ppl. They have put up with too much shit so far. All they want is equal chance to advance in life. A better opportunity for the youth.

It's not right to point out at them, because they are not guilty for the bad governing.
So far, there is no [B]national strategy[/B].
[/QUOTE]
Bratot, I was going to say "I don't criticise the people at all".
But the more I thought about it, the more I do. I was in Macedonia when VMRO-DPMNE was voted in. Most Macedonians showed utter apathy in relation to the governing of Macedonia. Do you think these politicians would get away with as many despicable acts if the citizens protested and demanded on a large scale. No! They have been victims for 500 years and accept any dire situation as their plight in life. The present diminution of the Macedonian identity that is being inflicted on the Macedonian people is yet another dilemma they will endure with nothing more than a whimper. Will the Macedonians ever rise as one? There will be a national strategy when the people eventually do. In the meanwhile, all we can do in the Diaspora is help stir up the national fervour and increase economic opportunities in Macedonia using our connections outside of Macedonia.

There is a lot to add honestly, but I wouldn't proceed here :) too many eyes and ears around.

All I want to make clear is I dont have anything against you, I just wish we all could cooperate together on a higher level and bring one after another victory, for our Macedonian cause.

And maybe... also to see the Greeks cry :p


Pozdrav!

If Macedonia were to take strong stances in support of Macedonia being a cradle of the Macedonian people, as opposed toward a quasi-federalised multi-ethnic state, if we were to solve the internal ethnic demographic problem within Macedonia, then we would be unstoppable by Greece or any other neighbour.

Right now, time is on Greece's side, because as things further develop in the region with Kosovo and so on, they also further develop in Macedonia with Western Macedonia increasingly becoming lost to the Macedonians.

Macedonia should make some serious strategic moves that could alter the ethnic demographics of the country within a short period of time, allowing to freely move back toward a Macedonia for the Macedonians (with all minority having full minority rights) as opposed to a Macedonia for the citizens (with it no longer being the cradle of the Macedonian people).

I'm talking about moves like the Government using budgetary reserves (or loans) to fund a number of major infrastructural projects in Kosovo (heavy train rails, road networks, communication networks, etc etc). Macedonia would do so promoting itself as a supporter of Kosovo and the region, helping the country build up and so on (which is good for Macedonian diplomacy, despite the ulterior motive). Bear in mind, this would also help Macedonia in the long run in economic terms, as it would have a neighbour which can provide a developed alternative trade route for exporting outside of Macedonia.

These would be a number of projects that would require the employment of a total 30,000 people (costing some 300 million euro / year) with 60% of the employees coming from Macedonia (as a condition of the Macedonian Government in order to invest in the project). With 10,000 kosovars employed and and some 20,000 Albanians from Macedonia employed to work in Kosovo - followed by some other incentives to help sway them to relocate and move to Kosovo (such as Gov offers to buy up their properties or other incentives) with 20,000 Albanian men from Macedonia moving to Kosovo to work, if the incentive is provided for their whole families to move (assume average of 4-5 persons per family), then that can change the ethno-demographic situation in Macedonia by some 80,000-100,000 people.

That might be costly (i.e. 1.5 billion euro over 5 years) but it has immediate effects in Macedonia in quite a number of ways and some of the costs are recovered.

Firstly, with such a change in the ethno-demographics, the political landscape is drastically changed. I need not go further in explaining what this means, but suffice to say that this could absolutely remove the greater Albania aspirations and if the right amounts of people are employed into Kosovo from the right municipalities, it could completely change things on a Federal and municipal level.

Next, with 20,000 people employed using budgetary reserves (or Government taking up loans) that's 20,000 people less getting unemployment pay and benefits. Actually, it's 40,000 less people getting unemployment pay and benefits (20,000 newly employed Albanian men and their 20,000 wives who now no longer live in Macedonia and cannot claim the unemployment benefits that they currently do).

It could also mean there are some 40,000-60,000 less students, requiring less teachers and schools to be operated in certain areas, representing savings in the budget - whilst those students would have moved to Kosovo which would then require an influx of new teachers, etc (employment opportunities for those teachers of the Albanian students from Macedonia).

With these major projects, given the investment, a lot of the materials required (i.e. pavement for a road-network, and so on) could be bought from Macedonia, and these exports into Kosovo (albeit, paid for by the Macedonian Government) would also helps stimulate the Macedonian economy creating more jobs in Macedonia for the Macedonian people (this, along with the notion that it is in Macedonia's interest to have a developed trade route with Kosovo, would minimise the outcry of the Macedonian people against the Macedonian Government spending so much for projects in Kosovo - without them knowing the true national objectives)

Couple that with the long-term Macedonian initiatives for "3rd child" and so on, and we bring Macedonia back to be the cradle of the Macedonian people, the home of the Macedonian people.

And in the end, all of that is win-win for everybody. It does not involve ethnic tension or civil war, etc, but rather it's providing opportunities for employment and a better life to current Macedonian citizens (who happen to be Albanians) by giving them the chance and choice to take up a job in Kosovo (jobs which would subsequently cause them to relocate to Kosovo). It is quite similar to the economic ethnic cleansing that the Albanians have begun in western Macedonia, by buying out the properties of Macedonians living there, at overblown prices, to ensure they sell up. It's unlike the forceful ethnic cleansing that they are also doing in western Macedonia forcing the Macedonians to move out because of the bad treatment from their (now numerous) Albanian neighbours.

When that's what our country is, then time becomes on our side, then we become strong enough that we cannot be defeated from within, then we are truly free to fight the battles that need to be fought.

Changing the situation inside Macedonia should be of utmost national importance, not something we should let go as we currently are doing.

Hmmm, did I stumble on a quick way to kill a thread or what?

[QUOTE=Rogi;9093]Hmmm, did I stumble on a quick way to kill a thread or what?[/QUOTE]
:D
No, not at all Rogi.
They have merit and represent a fair bit to digest. Personally, I don't feel like doing anything for Kosovo right now. But your idea is a dramatic departure from traditional Balkan pettiness and could be a very new approach that could generate excellent results.

Again, a lot to digest. But the following text will be enough for me:
[QUOTE]
If Macedonia were to take strong stances in support of Macedonia being a cradle of the Macedonian people, as opposed toward a quasi-federalised multi-ethnic state, if we were to solve the internal ethnic demographic problem within Macedonia, then we would be unstoppable by Greece or any other neighbour.[/QUOTE]

Something similar to Rogi version.

Without partition of the country without exchanges of territory and population, without coercion, without violence and war , without condemnation and foreign intervention, without any resistance of Albanian citizens, instead of, they will help us in this plan with a big pleasure. :)

According to what they do and for what they dream of, in fact they would trade with pleasure "their part" of Macedonia, for some country with high economic standard and opportunities for better life and perspective for them and their families.

The Albanians are never sincere about the intentions when they speak about having equal rights to be Macedonian citizens. Nope, but they would be pleased if they could give up of the posibility to become the most privileged citizens of our country, only.. under the condition to become citizens of even a second row..of lets say Austria, Germany, Britain, France, Sweden, Swiss, Italy..etc.


So, all we have to do is to help our "Albanian brothers and sisters" to become fully foreigners :) We can send them in EU by providing every conditions to accomplish that.


1. To open so called "workers university" in every region in west Macedonia where there is population of at least few thousands arround, where the Albanians could learn somekind of a "proffession".

2. To open "language schools" in the same places, where they could learn to speak some of the languages in EU where they would like to emigrate.

3. To introduce them closer the EU culture, to help them understand EU lifestyle and to adjust easily. We can open some "Home of EU culture" for example, to employ Albanians in those institutions, so basically "2 flies with 1 kick" :) improving the quote of employment for the minorities.

4. To bring employers from EU, to organize some road-show where they could easily come in contact.


Thats the philosophy, we gonna do exportation of the best Macedonian product- "Educated Albanian", take it and go!!:)


So, we can prepare lets say 50.000 Albanians to leave the country, to invest in them and to send them in EU where they would find a job and after a while they would bring some of their family member, and another...and another..so on so on.


This shouldn't cost us a lot from the budget. I think we could afford it. It would take 5 or 10 years after which their number would decrease for 100.000, maybe more.

По информациите дека грчката министерка за надворешни работи, Дора Бакојани во март или најдоцна почетокот на април ќе има средба со новиот американски државен секретар, Хилари Клинтон. [B]Македонците во Америка следната недела почнуваат кампања за масовно испраќање писма до конгресмените и сенаторите. Ќе ги информираат за правата на македонското малцинство во Грција и ќе бараат поддршка[/B]. Ќе потсетат и на добрата американско - македонската соработка.

- Иако Грците тоа редовно го прават како и ние и иако мислиме дека се поголема бројка од нас добро е тие конгресмени и сенатори да знаат дека има Македонци во нивните држави и дека не ќутиме на грчкото лоби. Често пати кога ние одиме во Конгресот се случува првото нешто што го викаат да биде дека ова е првиот пат некој Македонец да дојде во нашата канцеларија, изјави Методија Колоски, претседател на Обединетата македонска дијаспора.

Од Обединетата македонска дијаспора велат дека најавената посета на Бакојани не е за изненадување. Очекуваат таа да присуствува на свечениот банкет што секоја година на крајот од март го организира американскиот претседател во чест на грчкиот ден на независноста. На прослава се покануваат по околу 250 највлијателни Грци во Америка. Македонците велат дека до тогаш имаат време да се подготват за лобирање, но порачуваат да се внимава со провокациите од македонска страна. Како пример ја даваат антимакедонската резолуција која Грците се обидуваат да ја протнат во Конгресот од 94-тата година. Она што загрижува е што со текот на времето таа добива се поголем број на поддржувачи.

„ Повеќето конгресмени ја поддржаа таа резолуција поради тоа што се преименува аеродромот “Александар Македонски“. Мислам, аргументите беа на страна на Грците и ги искористија многу добро, така што треба малку и претпазливи да бидеме со такви потези.[B] Нели имаше и пред Букурешт Премиерот постави цвеќе на гробот на Гоце Делчев и на тој гроб имало мапа на Голема Македонија. Тоа многу го искористија Грците во Америка и добија повеќе поддршка од сенаторите и конгресмените поради тоа[/B]„ , изјави [B]Методија Колоски,[/B] претседател на Обединетата македонска дијаспора.

Тврдењата дека Македонија спроведува националистичка пропаганда со територијални претензии кон Грција, Бакојани минатата година пред сите членови на Комисијата за надворешна политика на Сенатот го аргументирала со фотографијата со Премиерот пред картата на голема Македонија.


[url]http://kanal5.com.mk/ShowNews.aspx?ItemID=45561&mid=1500&tabId=1&tabindex=0[/url]

Rogi, in a post on Maknews, gets to the crux of the matter in relation to the UMD.

[QUOTE]Like any other Macedonian, Sekerinska can register for the event and attend it, and perhaps even learn something (doubtful).
Sekerinska can still hold her treacherous views, that is her prerogative.


However, with UMD promoting Sekerinska as a special, invited and honoured guest, than it implies that the UMD views Sekerinska as a special and honoured guest in that UMD see's her views and her push for a name-change and other defeatist anti-Macedonian positions as having merit and worthy of being honoured.

Furthermore, by inviting Sekerinska as a special and honoured guest and as a keynote speaker, the United Macedonian Diaspora will be providing a platform for those who support treacherous positions (such as a pro-name-change and 'EU at all costs') to push those views.

If the UMD is not able to take a stance and prove just what its positions are, then it will lose the respect of the entire Macedonian Diaspora, along with the overwhelming majority of the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia.

More than discrediting itself though, UMD would actually be providing a platform for anti-Macedonian views to be promoted and that pushes UMD to the point of being against the Macedonian Cause itself.

I definitely do not want to be associated with an organisation that will do that and if that's what happens then I most certainly will not be involved with UMD any more. In fact, at that point, nor should any Macedonian.


If the United Macedonian Diaspora is the organisation of the Macedonian Diaspora, then it should respect the will of the Macedonian Diaspora.

If the United Macedonian Diaspora is a pro-Macedonian organisation, if it has holds any actual beliefs and positions, then it must take a stand and stick to those positions.

Otherwise, it shows that it has no positions, it is not an unwavering organisation that works for the Macedonian Cause.

This is a real chance for the United Macedonian Diaspora to become the organisation that every Macedonian should get behind.

This is a real chance for the United Macedonian Diaspora to prove what it stands for.[/QUOTE]

There is no doubt about the Macedonian Diaspora's hopes in relation to Macedonia. There should be no doubt about the United Macedonian Diaspora's hopes. But there is. And this is unfortunate.

Well done Rogi. A definitive and noble response.