[QUOTE=Bratot;8661]Без да навлегвам во спорот меѓу вас, мислам дека не е најпаметно овие внатрешни дискусии да ги водите пред очите на душманите.[/QUOTE]


Bratot,

What kind of discussions are you refering to? I havn't seen any "secrets" revealed in this post. Noone has asked for personal details, details of planned events or activities, details on the internal structures of the organisation or any other details that could compromise UMD activities.

The debate has centred around UMD policies and its stand on critical issues of national importance. These are fundamental questions for any individual or organisation that engages in PUBLIC activity.

Your comment (whether intentional or unintetional) serves to stiffle critical debate over an organisation that claims to represent ALL Macedonians WORLDWIDE, but has been unable to answer questions relating to the fundamental issues that it supposedly represents us on.

One suggestion I would provide to UMD is, rather than spending so much time and energy on marketing the organisation, it would be wiser to sit down and work out what the organisation actually stands for. That way they would not run into so many 'heated' debates over their policies and principles.

Vangelovski, you must be intentionally "stupid".

First, don't show your weakness. The weakness demonstrated in front of the dushmani - lack of unity and trust among us related as you say to "organisation that claims to represent ALL Macedonians WORLDWIDE"

Second, how can any neutral Macedonian decide who is telling the truth or simply tend to compromise a person or a whole organisation.

Who is more reliable, credible? Do we all know eachother personally, can you Vangelovski personally guarantee for someone in here or in UMD?


And from my own experience so far, its very possible that soon or later there gonna appear some "outlandish" person which will do everything in order to get some credibility and later on to be able to sabotage the organisation activities.
Thus, don't lecture me about the purpose of the "critical debate".

[QUOTE=Bratot;8668]Vangelovski, you must be intentionally "stupid".

First, don't show your weakness. The weakness demonstrated in front of the dushmani - lack of unity and trust among us related as you say to "organisation that claims to represent ALL Macedonians WORLDWIDE"

Second, how can any neutral Macedonian decide who is telling the truth or simply tend to compromise a person or a whole organisation.

Who is more reliable, credible? Do we all know eachother personally, can you Vangelovski personally guarantee for someone in here or in UMD?


And from my own experience so far, its very possible that soon or later there gonna appear some "outlandish" person which will do everything in order to get some credibility and later on to be able to sabotage the organisation activities.
Thus, don't lecture me about the purpose of the "critical debate".[/QUOTE]

Bratot,

I'm not interested in shallow "unity" or appearing to be "united" because some 'dusmani' might be watching us.

I'm interested in REAL unity whereby we can unite around solid principles that have been thoroughly thought through and build upon the principles that have underpinned Macedonian movements over the past 150 years.

Any organisation that is going to make outlandish claims that it "represents" ALL Macedonians should be prepared to at least outline its policies and principles to the very people it purports to "represent".

Bratot, there is no need to suggest anyone is intentionally "stupid".
The thread was originally created to promote discussion about the UMD.
The notion of understanding the UMD's mission with clarity is of great interest to me.
Should they wish to discuss specific policies of a sensitive nature, then this is not the place for it.

[QUOTE="Vangelovski"]Any organisation that is going to make outlandish claims that it "represents" ALL Macedonians should be prepared to at least outline its policies and principles to the very people it purports to "represent".[/QUOTE]
Ok, for the sake of objectivity, let me throw one from the other end. Vangelovski, is not what you wrote above stipulated in the UMD mission statement that Risto posted on the first page of this thread? What exactly do you require elaboration on? Specific details?

You don't seem to have much faith in the UMD and you have made that quite clear, that being the case, why are you still wasting your time in pursuit of them? It seems as though you want to 'expose' them for something, and, although I will admit that there have been some moments where better decisions could have been made by the UMD, to go so far as to claim that they are against the Macedonian people and state is absolute rubbish, and Tom, I think deep down you know this too. I think it is very unfortunate that a falling out has taken place between yourself and the UMD.

I wish to ask you two things in particular:

(1) Can you show me an organisation that exists as you envision it, and if so, are you a member?

(2) If not, why are you not taking the necessary steps to initiate and develop an organisation as you envision it?

[QUOTE=Pelister;8655]No response, Jankovska.

And I know of a couple people who left UMd because of ideological differences with its leadership - and the people who left were asking for nothing more than the defence and preservation of the Macedonian identity. UMd have said that they are not into the business of defending Macedonian rights ...etc, they are a different kind of political organization.[/QUOTE]

Honestly I am not very happy to hear you didn't receive any response. I would expect as a member of any organisation or organisation that represents my people to have time or people in place to reply to all questions and worries that people may have. It's not just about the members also about the people who are interested in the work of that organisation and may become members. I disagree that we should ask the UMD questions on a open forum, I think it's not quite right and they have every right to refuse and answer. Being a professional organisation they have contact details and everyone should contact them that way. I am very dissapointed that you didn't receive an answer Pelister, I hope we can blame it on lost in administration and hope that this is not what happenes all the time.
I do appreciate the UMD and the hard work that they put in and no one is saying they know the best, maybe they should have a suggestion board or something where other people can feel more invloved in the work and part of it.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8669]Bratot,

[B]I'm not interested in shallow "unity" or appearing to be "united" because some 'dusmani' might be watching us.[/B]

I'm interested in REAL unity whereby we can unite around solid principles that have been thoroughly thought through and build upon the principles that have underpinned Macedonian movements over the past 150 years.

Any organisation that is going to make outlandish claims that it "represents" ALL Macedonians should be prepared to at least outline its policies and principles to the very people it purports to "represent".[/QUOTE]

If you are not interested, you shouldn't even bother to reply on this topic.

My interest is not gonna be compromised for the sake of what you call a "debate", and creating situation where everyone can say anything and not take the responsibility for it.

If anyone provide strong arguments to blame UMD or particular members, than it can be done.
But not in a "charshiski muabet" stile, just to put a doubt on someone.



[QUOTE=Risto the Great;8670]Bratot, there is no need to suggest anyone is intentionally "stupid".
The thread was originally created to promote discussion about the UMD.
The notion of understanding the UMD's mission with clarity is of great interest to me.
Should they wish to discuss specific policies of a sensitive nature, then this is not the place for it.[/QUOTE]

Risto, I couldn't see a urge to be exposed by Vangelovski like that for something I suggested discretly in favour of keeping the discussion among us, not to bring in any lack of unity in front everyone who is watching us.

Or you have seen the Greeks to "discuss" like that on their forums!?

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;8678]
You don't seem to have much faith in the UMD and you have made that quite clear, that being the case, why are you still wasting your time in pursuit of them? [B]It seems as though you want to 'expose' them for something, and, although I will admit that there have been some moments where better decisions could have been made by the UMD, to go so far as to claim that they are against the Macedonian people and state is absolute rubbish,[/B] and Tom, I think deep down you know this too. I think it is very unfortunate that a falling out has taken place between yourself and the UMD.


[/QUOTE]

I have the same impression.

Bratot,

Perhaps you should read the part of my post that you highlighted again, and then read the next sentence.

I take FULL responsibility for what I say because I am using my REAL identity here, unlike you with your FAKE internet ID.

I also don't rely on "Charsiski Muabeti". In case you are unaware, I was one of the original co-founders of UMD and head of UMD Australia until I left about 8 months ago on the grounds of irreconcilable ideological differences, particularly with the American board membership.

SoM,

No organisation in the world can claim to represent ALL Macedonians for the simple fact that not ALL Macedonians are members of UMD, many don't even know that it exists or agree with many of their activities and public statements.

In relation to your first question, the ONLY organisation that I know of that does not openly elaborate what it stands for is UMD. UMD is the only organisation, that I know of, whose board members only provide their "personal" views, but the organisation as a whole is unable to provide its "official" view.

In relation to your second question, I am a member of a number of organisations in my local community and I maintain that membership because I agree with their policies. What organisation do you know of, that cannot answer simple, but fundamental questions about what they stand for?

Its like asking Green Peace what they stand for and them responding to you that they cannot tell you in a public forum, they can only answer you in private??? I thought the main role of UMD was to 'educate' policy makers (i.e., Governments) - well, what exactly are they 'educating' policy makers about? What is UMD's stance on fundamental issues of national importance?

I'm not asking UMD to reveal their next activity, when it will be undertaken and how. However, UMD needs to be open about what it is it stands for.

There have been so many contradictory public statements by UMD, many which have been detrimental to Macedonian national interests (I have discussed these on Maknews only to have Lubi delete them for reasons unknown). I am more than happy to post them here, but I don't want to waste my time if they are just going to be deleted again.

So in fact the members of UMD are contradicting eachother.

And sorry Vangelovski, I'm not checking you up. It's not my biz to be aware who use what kind of nick on the forum.

If you insist I will put a last name in my forum nickname, which doesn't have to mean its mine.


Just from curiosity, what are the achievments so far.. of UMD?

Bratot,

My statement was that UMD (the organisation) has made contradictory public statements through press releases, interviews etc.

You can use whatever nickname you want, but its a bit rich for you to say that I don't take responsibility for what post here when in fact I am using my REAL name.

Perhaps I'm the wrong person to be asking what UMD has achieved?

It was a general question to everyone involved in this discussion.

I'm recently in the Diaspora, althought half of my familly is for a long time.

And may I ask, why did you left UMD and didn't stayed to confrontate the policy of other members?

Whats gonna be next, since wrong persons are leading UMD?

Its quite disturbing to hear such statements.

Bratot,

Which statements in particular are you disturbed about?

After four years, our ideological differences were so great that I could no longer, in good conscious, remain with UMD.

The one mentioned in this discussion. About the name-issue position.

That's only ONE of a number of issues I would like to get a clear answer on.

[QUOTE="Vangelovski"]No organisation in the world can claim to represent ALL Macedonians for the simple fact that not ALL Macedonians are members of UMD, many don't even know that it exists or agree with many of their activities and public statements.[/QUOTE]
I agree, and I am sure that whoever made that statement was not intending to have it interpreted as such. It could have been worded a little better to avoid the sharp responses by some, but I think the statement was in a manner which would indicate that when they are out there doing what they do, they are representing the Macedonian people, as other Macedonian organisations do, as other Macedonian organisations should. When they are out there promoting our people they represent all Macedonians, not just some or paying members. If a Macedonian organisation in Canberra does something detrimental to the cause it reflects bad on ALL Macedonians, not just the one's in Canberra, likewise if it does something positive. That is how I see it. UMD are not an official representative elected by the Macedonian people, they are a Macedonian organisation working to further the Macedonian cause, so when they do, by default, they represent us all. They have taken the initiative, they are the one's out there that are making themselves known and working pro-actively on a large scale, and as a result they too should understand that what they do reflects on us all and if things don't seem right they should be questioned, we all have that right, but things need to remain reasonable to maintain dialogue among all parties involved and interested.

In my first question I am asking you if there is an organisation out there as you envision it, not about the UMD. Is there?

With regard to your answer of my second question, are these organisations you are a member of developing in the international arena and generating as much activity as UMD? If so, who are they? If not, and I mean this in a positive way, why don't you make some moves to make and/or take it to that level and have your organisation's voice be heard on a large scale as UMD? I can see that you have alot of energy for the cause, which is always good, it will be better spent this way.
[QUOTE="Vangelovski"]I'm not asking UMD to reveal their next activity, when it will be undertaken and how. However, UMD needs to be open about what it is it stands for.[/QUOTE]
What it stands for is stipulated in their mission statement, isn't it? What don't you agree with, what do you need to see or hear from the UMD?
[QUOTE="Vangelovski"]There have been so many contradictory public statements by UMD, many which have been detrimental to Macedonian national interests (I have discussed these on Maknews only to have Lubi delete them for reasons unknown). I am more than happy to post them here, but I don't want to waste my time if they are just going to be deleted again.[/QUOTE]
No organisation is perfect and all have flaws and have made errors, if there are statements which are detrimental to our cause and you wish to genuinely challenge them without getting caught up in vindictive insults and slurs, then you are free to post what you wish.

By the way, Tom, I will ask you to not replicate Aleksandrov's behaviour here with harassing members for their personal details, it is an internet forum for Christ sake, I don't have any issues with you being here at all, but don't re-initiate this kind of psychopathic action from the past 'glory' days. I welcome your opinion, but the baggage stays there, not here. Can we agree on that?

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8744]There have been so many contradictory public statements by UMD, many which have been detrimental to Macedonian national interests (I have discussed these on Maknews only to have Lubi delete them for reasons unknown). I am more than happy to post them here, but I don't want to waste my time if they are just going to be deleted again.[/QUOTE]
They will not be deleted here. The worst that will happen is that they will eventually hit the back of the forum due to lack of interest. Tom, it appears you have an axe to grind on this matter and it intrigues me why a former founding member feels this way. Because your heart certainly looks to be in the right place from my perspective. So I would appreciate you re-posting any public statements that represent departures from UMD's mission statement.

In relation to anonymity on the forum. I reiterate SoM's stance about this. Personally, I choose anonymity simply because it makes my life easier any time I return to Greece. To be banned form entering the country (and we know this happens) only has the potential to limit my ability to further the Macedonian cause there.

SoM/RTG (I hope you don’t mind me using acronyms to refer to you)

I haven’t come across an organisation that runs exactly as I think it should, though there are many that come very close :) Regardless, just because they may not exist, it does not mean that one shouldn’t strive to create them.

The organisations that I am currently involved have, in my view, much more important and fundamental priorities. They are focused on teaching Macedonians what most others in Europe learned nearly 2 centuries ago through the ‘enlightenment’ and the political ‘revolutions’ that followed – and that is that they are free men and women who are capable of determining their own status.

I am critical of many organisations and individuals who make statements or undertake activities which are, in my view, detrimental to the Macedonian cause – as I define it :) I’m far more critical of SDSM and DPMNE than UMD, which is relatively harmless in comparison.

As far as UMD’s mission statement goes, it’s a fairly vague one-pager. Most organisations that I am aware of, have detailed policy documents that have gone through serious internal debate and are used as a basis for the leaders/public spokespeople of those organisation to answer detailed questions in public.

For example, I believe that two fundamental issues facing Macedonia today, among others, are the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement. UMD has made many public statements legitimising these “agreements”, but has never come out to state its “official” position on them in detail. So, until they come out and tell us where they stand, I can only assume that UMD supports these two treasonous “agreements”.

As for people’s identities, I’m not asking anyone to reveal their real identity. I may have misinterpreted Bratot. I thought he was trying to say that I was spreading rumours that I did not have to account for. My point was that I am taking responsibility for everything I say on this forum because I am using my real identity.

On July 31st, a UMD delegation met with Macedonia's President, Prime Minister and Foreign Minister in Skopje. UMD was able to reiterate its [B]unwavering position against any negotiations over Macedonia's name, or any considerations of changing the name of the Republic of Macedonia. [/B]



“The most recent attempt to resolve the dispute proposed by UN mediator, Ambassador Matthew Nimetz, is being stymied by Athens because it does not advance Athens’ desire to extinguish Macedonian ethnic and national consciousness,” stated UMD President Metodija A. Koloski. “Rather than constructively participating in these negotiations, Athens merely waits for proposals from Ambassador Nimetz, rejects them out of hand, and then threatens Macedonia with a continued veto of Macedonia’s entry into NATO and now it has compounded that tactic with a threat to veto Macedonia’s EU membership,” added Koloski.


In closing, Koloski stated, “It is unfortunate that this dispute cannot be resolved, but Macedonia should not allow itself to be held hostage by the intransigence and threats of the Hellenic Republic over Macedonia’s admission into NATO and the EU. Moreover, given Athens’ conduct to date, it is reasonable to conclude that the Hellenic Republic will continue to impede Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, regardless of progress in the negotiations. This situation will continue unless and until Athens successfully extorts a new name of its own choosing not just for Macedonia but also for the Macedonian people and the Macedonian language. [B]It is the position of UMD that none of these fall under the purview of or may be dictated by the Hellenic Republic. Rather, these are the sovereign property of the Macedonian people[/B].”

Bratot (That is what they are telling You), but UMD pride themselves on their cunning. You will never get a straight answer from them, believe me.

UMD's mission statement says one thing, while UMD's short historical record says something else entirely.

If you read the mission statement, and then read UMD's press release about why it supports a "suspension" of the negotiations, you will see the duplicity.

The ideology of UMD is post-modern, it believes that there is some kind of a "workable truth" when it comes to Macedonian culture, history and identity, and that "compromise of the truth = progress" which very closely mimmics the present Macedonian leadership.

Its mission statement calls for an "end" to the negotations, and yet UMD PUBLICLY called for a "suspension" FOR THE EXPLICIT REASON THAT Greece was not playing fair or being "serious" - this strongly suggests that UMD are all for a compromise, and the only factor standing in the way is Greece itself.

Like I said, UMD is prepared to accept a "political solution", but it won't defend Macedonian self determination or soveriegnty. I would be very, very suspicious of an organization SAYS ONE THING BUT STANDS FOR SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY.

Think about how many Macedonians died fighting for the Bulgarians, because they believed the Bulgarirans were defending them ?! Think about that, and don't look at UMD mission statement, look at their very public "Actions" regarding the negotiations and dispute.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;8794]SoM/RTG (I hope you don’t mind me using acronyms to refer to you)

I haven’t come across an organisation that runs exactly as I think it should, though there are many that come very close :) Regardless, just because they may not exist, it does not mean that one shouldn’t strive to create them.

The organisations that I am currently involved have, in my view, much more important and fundamental priorities. They are focused on teaching Macedonians what most others in Europe learned nearly 2 centuries ago through the ‘enlightenment’ and the political ‘revolutions’ that followed – and that is that they are free men and women who are capable of determining their own status.

I am critical of many organisations and individuals who make statements or undertake activities which are, in my view, detrimental to the Macedonian cause – as I define it :) I’m far more critical of SDSM and DPMNE than UMD, which is relatively harmless in comparison.

As far as UMD’s mission statement goes, it’s a fairly vague one-pager. Most organisations that I am aware of, have detailed policy documents that have gone through serious internal debate and are used as a basis for the leaders/public spokespeople of those organisation to answer detailed questions in public.

For example, I believe that two fundamental issues facing Macedonia today, among others, are the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement. [B]UMD has made many public statements legitimising these “agreements”, but has never come out to state its “official” position on them in detail. So, until they come out and tell us where they stand, I can only assume that UMD supports these two treasonous “agreements”.[/B]

As for people’s identities, I’m not asking anyone to reveal their real identity. I may have misinterpreted Bratot. I thought he was trying to say that I was spreading rumours that I did not have to account for. My point was that I am taking responsibility for everything I say on this forum because I am using my real identity.[/QUOTE]

I would agree with that, entirely.

I understand, that was the only stuff I could find on UMD website.

No publication is avaiable except the Voice, but nothing of some value for this thread.


My opinion is not to work against UMD, but against particular members. To reveal their intentions, given with full name and position in the organisation.

About their ideology, I really hope that such organisation is not under influence of Macedonian politicians from the Government. So, their position in the name issue - meaning compromise, to be reflected in the higher level of UMD.
Obviously, the voice of the diaspora is very important, especialy for the future goal of including Diaspora members in the Parlament.

I'm seriously concerned about the hiporisy in our government and the other political subjects.
They might have been involved in creating and atmosphere in the diaspora where the compromise could take place, but without negative implications on their political careers.
With other words, what they are trying is to produce a critical mass for a "name change".


You should quickly reorganize, reshuffle and ACT!


[QUOTE]Think about how many Macedonians died fighting for the Bulgarians, because they believed the Bulgarirans were defending them ?! Think about that, and don't look at UMD mission statement, look at their very public "Actions" regarding the negotiations and dispute.[/QUOTE]

I also hope, that UMD fortune will not give us another MPO.

[QUOTE=Bratot;8801]On July 31st, a UMD delegation met with Macedonia's President, Prime Minister and Foreign Minister in Skopje. UMD was able to reiterate its unwavering position against any negotiations over Macedonia's name, or any considerations of changing the name of the Republic of Macedonia.

“The most recent attempt to resolve the dispute proposed by UN mediator, Ambassador Matthew Nimetz, is being stymied by Athens because it does not advance Athens’ desire to extinguish Macedonian ethnic and national consciousness,” stated UMD President Metodija A. Koloski. “[B]Rather than constructively participating in these negotiations, Athens merely waits for proposals from Ambassador Nimetz, rejects them out of hand[/B], and then threatens Macedonia with a continued veto of Macedonia’s entry into NATO and now it has compounded that tactic with a threat to veto Macedonia’s EU membership,” added Koloski.

In closing, Koloski stated, “It is unfortunate that this dispute cannot be resolved, but Macedonia should not allow itself to be held hostage by the intransigence and threats of the Hellenic Republic over Macedonia’s admission into NATO and the EU. [B]Moreover, given Athens’ conduct to date, it is reasonable to conclude that the Hellenic Republic will continue to impede Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, regardless of progress in the negotiations[/B]. This situation will continue unless and until Athens successfully extorts a new name of its own choosing not just for Macedonia but also for the Macedonian people and the Macedonian language. It is the position of UMD that none of these fall under the purview of or may be dictated by the Hellenic Republic. Rather, these are the sovereign property of the Macedonian people.”[/QUOTE]

Bratot,

Now read the parts that I highlighted. In these sections, Meto Koloski legitimises the negotiations by claiming that Greece is not participating constructively and implying that it should in order for the name problem to be resolved.

By legitimising the negotiations, UMD accepts that Greece in fact has a legitimate greivance that needs to be settled.

This press release is very contradictory in itself. If you look at what you highlighted and then read what I highlighted, the contradictions are blarringly obvious. In one sentence UMD states that it is Macedonia's soverign right to choose its own name and in another it condemns Greece for not negotiating constructively, implicitly implying that Greece should negotiate contructively and thus that Macedonia should also be negotiating constructively. Legitimising the negotiations effectively legitimises Greece's claim that it has a role to play in choosing a name for Macedonia.

There are many, many more examples, some where Meto Koloski, President of UMD, states just before the NATO summit in April 2008, that the Macedonian people would supposedly accept a "political modifier" to the name. It is not the entire UMD leadership, but certainly the majority of it, whose thinking on a number of issues of national importance is highly questionable.

[QUOTE]Rather than constructively participating in these negotiations, Athens merely waits for proposals from Ambassador Nimetz, rejects them out of hand[/QUOTE]
This one suggests the UMD is keen to have Macedonia participate in negotiations.

[QUOTE]
Moreover, given Athens’ conduct to date, it is reasonable to conclude that the Hellenic Republic will continue to impede Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, regardless of progress in the negotiations[/QUOTE]
This one says Greece will do whatever it wants irrespective of the negotiations.

This first quote is bad as it suggests the UMD is keen to see constructive negotiation.
The second quote is merely a reality but does validate the negotiation process.

Why am I not surprised? The efforts to discredit the UMD have moved over here...

A few questions,

Who wins from this?
Who has something to gain?

A compromise is the dual name formula. A compromise does not have to mean name change.

Efforts to attack UMD are cannibalistic and self destructive. I am not a member, however why attack an organization that obviously aims to improve the Macedonian cause?

Organizations like this should not be 100% transparent for the sake of a few paranoid individuals because all this does is to serve the enemies that are trying to destroy us... hello...

Volk,

Your free to blindly follow whoever you like, just don't call on the rest of us to follow your example.

I am not following anyone, I am standing up for an organization that is lobbying for our rights. Unless you have evidence to prove otherwise I suggest you make your real intentions transparent to everyone.

Volk,

Macedonia will never win, if UMD's position regarding the name and the negotiations is allowed to continue.

For UMD compromise = progress - thats the kind of post-modern people that they are.

As far as UMD is concerned "nationalism" is a very very dirty word - and they think that they can play themselves off against the Greeks as being "fairer" or "more open to compromise". All of this suggests very strongly that UMD FULLY supports a name chance, if only Greece would get its act together.

The other problem is the way UMD represents itself. It does not represent the vast majority of Macedonians in the diaspora - or even in the West, even though "IT MARKETS ITSELF" as the Peak Body of Macedonians all over the world.

Pelister,

Cel na Makedonskata strana e da lici kako po konstruktivna od dvete strani (i fakticki e, so promena na znameto i ustavot). Izjavite za barane na fer kompromis se e fakticki kompromis sto bi bil dvojnata formula.

Jas vo UMD licno ne gi znam, no ne si iskazal ni edna izjava sto pokazuva ili dokazuva deka imaat ili nekoja 'tajna' misija ili pak se borat protiv narodot. Korenot na problemot e nekoj luge im gi razbiraat izjavi na UMD kako 'modarate', i celata organizacija moderate.

Toj zbor e klucen, deka site treba da licat kako moderate dur infact ne ja pominuvaat linijata sto e povrzan so nasiot identitet (toa vklucuva ime, jazik, cela istorija na nasiot narod), znaci bez ostapka na toa sto sme.

Sega dali treba Makedonija da se vkluci vo NATO kako fyrom moze tesko da se debatira i jas nekolku pati se soglasuvav pa si go promeniv misleneto. Veke vo UN sme kako fyrom ( toa nie privremeno ime), da go imame toa isto privremeno ime vo organizacija sto mozde da ni garantira (ako ili ne?) sovrenitet dali e tolku loso vo odgled sto moze da se smeni vo Makedonija....

Volk,

All the relevant facts about UMD have been pointed out to you in the past, but you seem more interested in following the capitulatory stance that UMD and successive Macedonian Governments have followed in a vain hope that if they please their foreign masters they may be "rewarded" with something.

Now you are advocating that we join NATO under fyrom so that one day we can change it to Macedonia. As has been pointed out to you many times over, Gligorov argued the same thing when Macedonia joined the UN - that the name would be reverted back within 3 months.

These treasonous and capitulatory actions are the actions of slaves trying to please their masters, not realising that their masters have no intention of fulfilling the slaves wishes. Its been nearly 2 decades and still Macedonians pin their hopes in vain on that one last capitulation which inevitably turns into yet one more last capitulation.

What exactly do you find not "moderate" about excercising our legitimate and sovereign rights? What is "moderation" to you?

[QUOTE]All the relevant facts about UMD have been pointed out to you in the past,[/QUOTE]
Are we going to play this game again? the only 'evidence' I saw was you mentioning the Maknews thread in which you had zero evidence.

If I am wrong PLEASE show me?

[QUOTE]but you seem more interested in following the capitulatory stance that UMD and successive Macedonian Governments [/QUOTE]

Now how is preserving and defending our identity (including our name, language culture and history) capitulatory? When have i advocated otherwise?

[QUOTE]Now you are advocating that we join NATO under fyrom so that one day we can change it to Macedonia[/QUOTE]

Read what I have written again, in my writing I was explaining the thought process that must be considered in such decision.
On that note are you advocating isolation? Should Macedonia leave all of the organizations that have admitted it under fyrom? Including the UN, WTO, IMF ? why should Nato be any different?

So is isolation what you are advocating?

[QUOTE]What exactly do you find not "moderate" about excercising our legitimate and sovereign rights? What is "moderation" to you? [/QUOTE]
I think i explained this in my previous post but I will do so in english; I was explaining that term 'moderate' is a good thing to have. However being labelled moderate whilst not negating our fundamental rights as a people. In the case of the government and UMD calling for a fair compromise is a moderate attitude, however a compromise that does not negate our identity which could only be a dual name formula.

Volk,

I'll repost all the facts that you pretend not to know about UMD.

Isolation? What isolation? What kind of isolation? Isolation from whom? Now you have moved from Gligorov style promises to Crvenkovski style scaremongering. These are standard tactics of the 'habitual capitulator'... from promises to threats, that if we don't capitulate this "one last time" there will be consequences, but if we do "all will be well with time".

[QUOTE]I'll repost all the facts that you pretend not to know about UMD.[/QUOTE]

Please do, why would i pretend not to know?

[QUOTE]Isolation? What isolation? What kind of isolation? Isolation from whom? Now you have moved from Gligorov style promises to Crvenkovski style scaremongering. These are standard tactics of the 'habitual capitulator'... from promises to threats.[/QUOTE]

Wow... that's it? isolation from whom? well from the world bodies Macedonia has been admitted under fyrom, including the UN, WTO, IMF and most sporting bodies including FIFA and the Olympic Games. If you dont understand the abbreviations put them in google.

My question was simple, are you advocating that Macedonia renounce membership in all of these international organizations that have admitted us as fyrom? thus advocating isolation.

My point was if we can join these under fyrom why not NATO where we (theoretically) would receive the greatest strategic benefit.

[QUOTE]Now you have moved from Gligorov style promises to Crvenkovski style scaremongering. These are standard tactics of the 'habitual capitulator'... from promises to threats.[/QUOTE]

Now your just making yourself sound very childish.

What I'm advocating is that Macedonia withdraw from negotiations and excercise its national sovereignty and the human rights of the Macedonian people rather than undermine them. That is the reason the Macedonian people established an independent state.

By YOUR logic, Macedonia should be able to switch to its constitutional name within these organisations that you mention because its already a member - that is exactly what YOU are suggesting that Macedonia do with NATO. You are becoming as contradictory as UMD. In one sentence you say we will be isolated if we do not capitulate and in another you claim that once we become a member of NATO, we'll be able to revert back to our constitutional name. Why can't we revert to our constitutional name now that we are a member of all these international organisation your praise? I suppose, in typical capitulatory fashion, you will claim that NATO is the important one. Then you will call for further capitulation because you will claim that the EU is important. Then you won't want to offend your foreign masters and the charade will continue. Do you see the parallels with Gligorov and Crvenkovski?

As for the UMD related material, I'll collate and post tonight. If you are not pretending to not know, then you must have the memory of a goldfish, as we were debating this very topic only a week ago on Maknews. Maybe you just don't read the threads?

Tom, this message is mostly for you, because you know most of us on the board and both you and I remember those arguments that took place right before you left UMD.


Nobody on the UMD board supports a name-change.

For those that may have agreed to a 'political' or 'geographic' identifier in the past, they no longer support that position now.

I wish more people with the right ideas would get involved and help steer the ship in the right direction.

As UMD gets bigger and bigger, influence comes from many different angles and it's hard (and gets harder) to keep this ship going in the right direction and others who steer it from accepting wrong guidance or being subtly influenced into the wrong direction.

So rather than letting the wrong people get involved who have ulterior motives, as we've seen happen with organisations such as MPO, etc... I really wish the people who understand the fundamental principles of Human Rights and Macedonian sovereignty and the Macedonian cause would get in involved and keep it clean.

Do you remember our private discussions about why you shouldn't have left UMD?


Pelister, "nationalism" is not a dirty word for UMD. It is a word some people in UMD consider a dirty word. I am not one of them and that word and its meaning is something that I have had debates over with certain colleagues of mine from UMD. You might have come a cross certain public glimpses of that debate in a thread or two over at maknews... but I agree that some in UMD think that being 'moderate' is opposite to being 'nationalist', but by very definition a 'nationalist' is someone who supports the Independence and Sovereignty of his/her nation.

[QUOTE]
Quote:
[B]Rather than constructively participating in these negotiations, Athens merely waits for proposals from Ambassador Nimetz, rejects them out of hand[/B]
This one suggests the UMD is keen to have Macedonia participate in negotiations.

Quote:
[B]Moreover, given Athens’ conduct to date, it is reasonable to conclude that the Hellenic Republic will continue to impede Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, regardless of progress in the negotiations[/B]
This one says Greece will do whatever it wants irrespective of the negotiations.

This first quote is bad as it suggests the UMD is keen to see constructive negotiation.
The second quote is merely a reality but does validate the negotiation process.[/QUOTE]

The above quotes are quite rightly worthy of scrutiny.

Volk, you clearly have stated that you are comfortable with Fyrom as a temporary name for Macedonia to gain NATO entry. This is your opinion and you are entitled to it. You have also said you have changed your mind in relation to this matter a few times as well. Based on your sentiments, I would imagine you are actually happy with the above quotes. Many do not agree to this temporary solution and you appear to feel that trying clarify the position of the UMD in relation to this matter is a "no-go area". Is it really that bad to ask the question?

[QUOTE]What I'm advocating is that Macedonia withdraw from negotiations and excercise its national sovereignty and the human rights of the Macedonian people rather than undermine them. That is the reason the Macedonian people established an independent state.[/QUOTE]

Good then we are advocating the same thing. The only difference is that I am advocating Macedonia withdraw from them once it has counter measures to ensure greece cannot put us on our knees. This includes alternate trade routes other than Solun.

This shift has already started; move to Crna Gora as main port, establishment of cargo airport in Stip and completion of corridor 8.

[QUOTE]By YOUR logic, Macedonia should be able to switch to its constitutional name within these organisations that you mention because its already a member - that is exactly what YOU are suggesting that Macedonia do with NATO[/QUOTE]
Correct... You have still not adressed my argument in regards why it is ok for Macedonia to join these organisations under fyrom and not NATO.
If it is not okay, should Macedonia withdraw from them?

[QUOTE]In one sentence you say we will be isolated if we do not capitulate[/QUOTE]
How is joining NATO under fyrom a capitulation? (the whole debate is useless because we where blocked) We are not changing our name.

[QUOTE]As for the UMD related material, I'll collate and post tonight[/QUOTE]
Please, I'll be very surprised to actually see anything of substance.

[QUOTE]Volk, you clearly have stated that you are comfortable with Fyrom as a temporary name for Macedonia to gain NATO entry[/QUOTE]
I am not comfortable with it at all, I cannot be comfortable with anything else than Macedonia, hence my mindset moving between the two sides.

[QUOTE]I would imagine you are actually happy with the above quotes. Many do not agree to this temporary solution and you appear to feel that trying clarify the position of the UMD in relation to this matter is a "no-go area". Is it really that bad to ask the question?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Rather than constructively participating in these negotiations, Athens merely waits for proposals from Ambassador Nimetz, rejects them out of hand[/QUOTE]

Risto,
Maybe it is in the eyes of the reader, this is how I understand it;
Macedonia should be seen as constructive and participating in the talks, the aim of the negotiations for the Macedonian side is Macedonia for the IC, dual name for greece. (this is the only thing I can accept as a compromise and which the government has also indicated)
Now saying greece does not participate means that they do not want to solve the problem, hence rendering the talks pointless and useless. Its an attempt to discredit the talks and their legitimacy.

[QUOTE]Moreover, given Athens’ conduct to date, it is reasonable to conclude that the Hellenic Republic will continue to impede Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic integration, regardless of progress in the negotiations[/QUOTE]

This simply states that greece is blocking us regardless of our name, that it is just a excuse for them. I dont see anything wrong with these statments.

[QUOTE=Rogi;8838]Tom, this message is mostly for you, because you know most of us on the board and both you and I remember those arguments that took place right before you left UMD.


Nobody on the UMD board supports a name-change.

For those that may have agreed to a 'political' or 'geographic' identifier in the past, they no longer support that position now.

I wish more people with the right ideas would get involved and help steer the ship in the right direction.

As UMD gets bigger and bigger, influence comes from many different angles and it's hard (and gets harder) to keep this ship going in the right direction and others who steer it from accepting wrong guidance or being subtly influenced into the wrong direction.

So rather than letting the wrong people get involved who have ulterior motives, as we've seen happen with organisations such as MPO, etc... I really wish the people who understand the fundamental principles of Human Rights and Macedonian sovereignty and the Macedonian cause would get in involved and keep it clean.

Do you remember our private discussions about why you shouldn't have left UMD?


Pelister, "nationalism" is not a dirty word for UMD. It is a word some people in UMD consider a dirty word. I am not one of them and that word and its meaning is something that I have had debates over with certain colleagues of mine from UMD. You might have come a cross certain public glimpses of that debate in a thread or two over at maknews... but I agree that some in UMD think that being 'moderate' is opposite to being 'nationalist', but by very definition a 'nationalist' is someone who supports the Independence and Sovereignty of his/her nation.[/QUOTE]

Rogi,

You know I don't consider you to be part of the circle within UMD whose motives and ideology I question. Of everyone there I think our views were the closest in relation to most issues.

I am still interested in knowing if UMD has a stand on the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement, and if so, what is it?

Volk, when you have something sensible to contribute, I'll reply, otherwise I have better things to do with my time.

If I may propose a hypothetical scenario for just a moment, I would like to know what are the immediate and long-term implications if the Macedonian state were to pull out of this illegal negotiation for our name?

What is the worst that could possibly happen?

What do we stand to gain?

I see two camps here, one calling for the immediate withdrawal of these negotiation and let the chips fall where they may, and the other calling for more time to better prepare for the exit, I think there are pros and cons in both arguments that can be explored, which is why this particular topic has evolved the way it has, what I am sure of is that everybody taking part in this discussion loves Macedonia and wants what is best, only the differing methods hold back any sort of unison.