[quote=Mr Brandy;59057]Vangelovski - if UMD decision making is so trivial to you why do you concern yourself with their stance? You obviously believe that what they say carries a lot of weight. I am asking you this sincerely - not just stirring it up.[/quote]

[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]Brandy,[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]It was a comment on the extraordinarily long and painful process that finally led to UMD calling on the Macedonian Government to “cease” the negotiations (though I’m not sure how much praise we can give them because they did reaffirm their commitment to the Interim Accord).[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]I don’t know of one Macedonian diaspora organisation that either supports or ever supported the name negotiations, Interim Accord or the Framework Agreement other than UMD. Perhaps you may know of some? It took the UMD Board six long and painful years (and enormous public pressure) to finally brake ranks with the Macedonian Government come around on this ONE point.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]As for what UMD says, I find it quite dangerous in that they promote a vision for Macedonia that is at odds with the vision that most activists have fought for over the past century.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=Mr Brandy;59064]Thanks Prolet - at the UMD conference I was discussing this forum with Steve K a fellow Australian and Risto the Great came up in conversation. He only had nice things to say about Risto and his family.[/QUOTE]

Spolaj Ti Mr Brandy

He wasnt wrong what he said about Risto, what was his opinion about this forum?

[quote=Pelister;59074]Tom,

Where does UMD specifically reject the current negotiation process?

Affirming that it rejects attempts to change our name ...etc, is not the same thing.

There is not a word in this spiel that [I]specifically[/I] rejects the current negotiation process.

Secondly, it does not ask the Macedonian government to disengage from the current process either. Why is that?

Also, take a look at its defence and expansion of the E.U institution, even though it rejects our identity. Note also, in paragraph 8 UMD states admission of countries "like Macedonia" ... but not by our constitutional name. The context is troubling. Support for our constitutional name, is missing in this paragraphy and others relating to E.U admission.

It is sufficiently vague and conflated. Alot of brilliant spin, but I'm afraid more of the same.[/quote]

Pelister,

I was being somewhat cheeky but I don't think Meto read my entire post before he replied.

To their credit, UMD did call on the Macedonian Government to "cease negotiations", though I'm not quite sure of how they define the concept "cease".

On the other hand, they reaffirmed their commitment to the Interim Accord, basically negating their call to "cease" negotiations.

Otherwise I agree, a lot of smoke and mirrors and poorly worded ideas leaving them open to multiple interpretations - business as usual.

[QUOTE=Pelister;59068]Sufficiently vague on the detail as usual. This kind of "blanket" bullshit doesn't actually do anything. There are various issues, terms, phrases and meanings that have been conflated here, which only adds confusion.

No where does this spiel specifically reject the current negotiation process. It doesn't.

Opening paragraph:

It has not specficially rejected the current negotiations process, simply "affirmed" that it is against attempts to change it. Huge difference.

There is also this:

The E.C and the E.U have repeatedly rejected our identity and our right to exist over the last 15 or more years.

Here is UMD defending the E.U INSTITUTION.

[COLOR="Red"]Nowwhere in these two paragraphs to they say the admission of the Republic of Macedonia, [B]by its constitutional name [/B]...[/COLOR]

In fact it talks admitting countries, "[B]like[/B] the Republic of Macedonia..."
It talks about admission "[B]including[/B] the Republic of Macedonia..."

[B][COLOR="Red"]In the opening paragraph UMD saying it supports our constitutional name, is not an indication that it in fact does. [/COLOR][/B]Because it continues to support an E.U institution, and defend it, even though it rejects our identity and our right to exist.[/QUOTE]
Pelister, why in hell are you complaining about NOT using "constitutional name" when the use of that terminology is highly dubious and has been criticised since its invention by Gligorov and Crvenkovski VASSAL regime in the early 1990s, when they sold out Macedonian national interests?

[QUOTE=Prolet;59076]Spolaj Ti Mr Brandy

He wasnt wrong what he said about Risto, what was his opinion about this forum?[/QUOTE]

Hi Prolet - he said that he does not spend much time on the forum but that he knew the main characters. He obviously didn't mention the part from SOM about interrupting Risto's questioning at the meeting. I only spoke with him for a few minutes and he seemed like an agreeable fellow - any more and I can't say for certain. He made a nice presentation about Adelaide wiht a slide show and brought us to speed on Macedonian life in his city. He also gave us a quick summary of this Mike Rann character and the Greek lobby in Australia.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;59078]Pelister,

I was being somewhat cheeky but I don't think Meto read my entire post before he replied.

To their credit, UMD did call on the Macedonian Government to "cease negotiations", though I'm not quite sure of how they define the concept "cease".

On the other hand, they reaffirmed their commitment to the Interim Accord, basically negating their call to "cease" negotiations.

Otherwise I agree, a lot of smoke and mirrors and poorly worded ideas leaving them open to multiple interpretations - business as usual.[/QUOTE]

Ah, yes your right Tom.
I see it now. At the very bottom. Its almost a footnote.

[quote] RESOLVED, that UMD, reiterates its unwavering support for retention of the one and only constitutional and rightful name of the Republic of Macedonia, rejects all attempts to change or impose any other name upon the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian people, [B]and calls upon the Macedonian government to cease the ongoing UN negotiations and to submit a resolution before the UN General Assembly and Security Council to be re-admitted to the UN under its one and only constitutional and rightful name of the Republic of Macedonia;[/B] [/quote]

Considering that this is the single most critical issue facing our political destruction, why is it at the bottom ?

I'm going to take some time to think about it.

[QUOTE=indigen;59080]Pelister, why in hell are you complaining about NOT using "constitutional name" when the use of that terminology is highly dubious and has been criticised since its invention by Gligorov and Crvenkovski VASSAL regime in the early 1990s, when they sold out Macedonian national interests?[/QUOTE]

I know we have been sold out. My point was that given what UMD have said in the past about name changes, and given their support of the negotiation process in the past - support for the admission of a country "like the Republic of Macedonia' could in fact mean anything?

[QUOTE=Mr Brandy;59081]Hi Prolet - he said that he does not spend much time on the forum but that he knew the main characters. He obviously didn't mention the part from SOM about interrupting Risto's questioning at the meeting. I only spoke with him for a few minutes and he seemed like an agreeable fellow - any more and I can't say for certain. He made a nice presentation about Adelaide wiht a slide show and brought us to speed on Macedonian life in his city. He also gave us a quick summary of this Mike Rann character and the Greek lobby in Australia.[/QUOTE]

Mr Brandy, As you are already aware AMHRC are taking legal action against Mike Rann and his anti-Macedonian statements, im sure Steve gave a good picture about how the Greek Lobby works in Adelaide. They were handing out pamphlets on Greeks history in some food stores, the only problem is that our minority in South Australia is smaller then the Greek Minority so obviously they have that voting advantage over us so they are used as a tool to gain their votes.

[QUOTE=Mr Brandy;59060]I highly doubt that we were sitting in a pub in Melbourne drinking a Fosters or whatever anyone would be calling me a stooge.[/QUOTE]

If you drank a Fosters in a pub in Melbourne, I'd call you worse names.

sf, Believe it or not Fosters is very popular outside of Australia, they even serve it in Stari Kraj.

We could always help him out and get him to choose a VB for a hard earned thirst especially after debating here like this LOL

Mr Brandy, Just so you know not many people drink Fosters in Australia and Melbourne in general, Fosters prides itself by promoting itself outside of Australia but inside Australia not many people drink it.

In Melbourne i would say that Crown Large,Carlton Cold and VB are the most popular Aussie Beers.

Prove any of what you have said.

[QUOTE]Considering that this is the single most critical issue facing our political destruction, why is it at the bottom ?

I'm going to take some time to think about it.
[/QUOTE]

Eeeee...could it be that..whereas,whereas,whereas etc..led to...resolved,resolved...eeee....resolved and that the most important conclusion therefor came at the bottom...

If not, I bet the jews or the freemasonry had something to do with it...or whatever....

[QUOTE=Prolet;59095]sf, Believe it or not Fosters is very popular outside of Australia, they even serve it in Stari Kraj.

We could always help him out and get him to choose a VB for a hard earned thirst especially after debating here like this LOL

Mr Brandy, Just so you know not many people drink Fosters in Australia and Melbourne in general, Fosters prides itself by promoting itself outside of Australia but inside Australia not many people drink it.

In Melbourne i would say that Crown Large,Carlton Cold and VB are the most popular Aussie Beers.[/QUOTE]

Prolet/sf - thanks for heads up on that! I had a feeling Fosters was a marketiing machine but it other then Castlemaine XXXX it was the only other beer I could think of. Anyway here's hoping we can enjoy a Crown Large in Melbourne someday.

crown lager :)

[QUOTE=julie;59142]crown lager :)[/QUOTE]

Ha Ha - Thanks Julie! Prolet what are you doing to me brother- I could assaulted going into a bar asking for a Crown LARGE!

Crown Lager jeeez cant i make a spelling mistake?? LOL

You could have picked VB or Carlton Cold instead.

Prolet VB is dreadful - Me and a girlfriend call it something else
v@@i@@l backwash - fill in the gaps

Julie, But in Victoria its very popular, all the tradies drink it especially the zidari.

Red Back is a nice South Australian Beer

no sense no feeling (taste) as they saying goes , lol

West End draught on tap is a thirst quencher :)

[QUOTE=Mr Brandy;59141]Anyway here's hoping we can enjoy a Crown Large in Melbourne someday.[/QUOTE]

If you have a chance to make it over, you'll need to partake in the great Australian tradition: the pub crawl.

[QUOTE=sf.;59173]If you have a chance to make it over, you'll need to partake in the great Australian tradition: the pub crawl.[/QUOTE]

Thanks sf - one day I hope - and seeing that there is no consensus on the best Australian beer we are left with no choice but try them all and decide - although from the sounds of it I'll try VB last.

[QUOTE=Mr Brandy;59189]Thanks sf - one day I hope - and seeing that there is no consensus on the best Australian beer we are left with no choice but try them all and decide - [B]although from the sounds of it I'll try VB last.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, most definitely!

Guinesss...guiness....Guiness.....on Draft :clap:

Mikail, How do you rate Carlton Draft?

[QUOTE=UMDiaspora.org;59028]Re: [SIZE="4"][COLOR="Purple"]Ohrid Framework Agreement - UMD is not pleased the way this document was signed, under the international community's pressure, however, [B]UMD will not tackle this issue at the moment, nor does it have a specific position on the issue. [/B] We know and understand everyone's concerns about this one, but UMD has set some priorities, and that priority is the protection of our name. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

UMD solicits donations and memberships from what large segment of the Diaspora? Close to 70% of our membership and donors have heritage from the Aegean part of geographic Macedonia, if this is what you are asking.[/QUOTE]

It would appear that the "UMD" has most support from uninformed and gullible, though most likely well intentioned, excepting the 5th columnist MPO bugaromani and their alternative agendas, Macedonians originating from the Aegean part of ethno-historic Macedonia. We learn something new every day! :-)

[QUOTE][b]"UMD" OXYMORN:[/B]
[B]Meto: "UMD will not tackle this issue at the moment[/B], [COLOR="Red"][SIZE="4"][B]nor does it have a specific position on the issue."[/B][/SIZE] [/COLOR]

"...UMD is a [B]leading[/B] international non-governmental [B]organization [COLOR="Navy"] addressing the interests and needs of Macedonians and Macedonian communities throughout the world...."[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

This IS pure BS, Meto! Read the start of this thread and compare with "nor does it have a specific position on the issue" and realise that you are LYING and DELUDING yourself! [B][COLOR="Red"]UMD is 100% PRO-RAMKOVIST![/COLOR][/B]

Seriously, it is almost comical to read that the UMD "solicits donations and memberships" immediately after stating it does not have a position on one of the most fundamental attacks to the Macedonian identity in modern times.

Here is a more appropriate text:
[I]
The UMD hopes someone is stupid enough to give us money so that one day we might have a position on something. In the meanwhile, we will spend your money by meeting with politicians and telling them that we have no position on anything.[/I]

This recent UMD announcement is interesting. I notice MVB has not responded to my response to him. He forewarned me that something might happen really soon. So the UMD has finally decided negotiations must cease. What next? Where do go after making a decision like this? The interim accord is part of that "negotiation" and they have not rejected that. In fact, they do not have a position on that.

RtG,

On the contrary, its clear that UMD still supports the Interim Accord as they have reprimaned Greece for violating it in their latest press release. If they did not support it, they would not provide it with any legitimacy, let alone use it as an example of Greek 'intransigence'.

On the one hand, UMD has now, for the first time ever, called on the Macedonian Government to "cease" negotiations (although I'm still suspect of what they mean by "cease", I'll give them the benefit of the doubt), however, on the other hand, they have reminded Greece that it has not implemented its end of the bargain, showing that they consider the Interim Accord to be a legitimate agreement that they would like to implement if Greece were to allow Macedonia into the EU/NATO.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;59324]Seriously, it is almost comical to read that the UMD "solicits donations and memberships" immediately after stating it does not have a position on one of the most fundamental attacks to the Macedonian identity in modern times.

Here is a more appropriate text:
[I]
The UMD hopes someone is stupid enough to give us money so that one day we might have a position on something. In the meanwhile, we will spend your money by meeting with politicians and telling them that we have no position on anything.[/I][/QUOTE]

More like safe, primarily legal language absolving themselves of a specific stance until a proper draft of their position can be published rather than putting out a position that will alienate and offend.

who are we going to alientate and offend?
Are we the only nation in this universe that cannot stand up for itself?

[QUOTE=Buktop;59339]More like safe, primarily legal language absolving themselves of a specific stance until a proper draft of their position can be published rather than putting out a position that will alienate and offend.[/QUOTE]
What a pathetic defense. Sorry Buktop, it is not my style to attack the person, but what on Earth are you really supporting?

It's more than obvious they (UMetoD) are all over the place. They do not have a clear cut position on anything at all.

It would be nice if one of the new Meto stooges who have come on board, go through 195 pages of questions and queries and try to set UMD on the right path. Or else let's stop this circus of putting the spotlight on UMD.

All we need to do is expose them. It's up to them to defend their actions. Something they have chosen to remain silent about.

So MVB, how about you do something your buddy has not, and that's clear the air of suspicion.

[quote=Buktop;59339]More like safe, primarily legal language absolving themselves of a specific stance until a proper draft of their position can be published rather than putting out a position that will alienate and offend.[/quote]

"Disclaimer" is UMD's catchphrase. Maybe before any of them say or write anything, they should repeat the following:

[I]The following statement is soley the view of Meto Koloski's alter ego named Loopy Lou, and does not necessarily reflect the views of Meto Koloski the individual or CEO, or those of the United Macedonian Diaspora.[/I]

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;59355]"Disclaimer" is UMD's catchphrase. Maybe before any of them say or write anything, they should repeat the following:

[I]The following statement is soley the view of Meto Koloski's alter ego named Loopy Lou, and does not necessarily reflect the views of Meto Koloski the individual or CEO, or those of the United Macedonian Diaspora.[/I][/QUOTE]

I love Buktops work, an apologist and arse-kisser without peer...

[QUOTE=julie;59345]who are we going to alientate and offend?
Are we the only nation in this universe that cannot stand up for itself?[/QUOTE]
Well, Australians would be my guess, or in particular members here. But the fact that they do not currently have a position means they are taking the time to properly draft a position.

[QUOTE=Buktop;59368]But the fact that they (UMD) do not currently have a position means they are taking the time to properly draft a position.[/QUOTE]
How long do they need mate? Another 5 years? How do you properly draft a position that says "no negotiations except for the negotiations already negotiated" .... and still sound sane?

Buktop, seriously, that's pathetic.

How long has this issue existed for, how long has the UMD been around for - And they still (according to you) need more time to "draft" a position? You are a sorry apologist mate, and you haven't changed a bit. How pathetic it is to see Macedonians from America blindly following and defending the UMD at every turn, irrespective of their stupidity and treachery.

Why on earth would they "alienate" or "offend" Macedonians in Australia if they came out with a statement now? Oh that's right, lack of consistency, lack of integrity, lack of principle, etc. Now I remember why more than 95% voters went against UMD as their representative. Meto was a part of the 5%, forgot who the other one was, some blind apologist I would gather.

Do you know why people are apologists, Buktop? It has nothing to do with their support of the UMD, but more the fact that they support the UMD in decisions that are clearly and obviously wrong and not worthy of support by any self-respecting Macedonians.

[QUOTE=Buktop;59339]More like safe, primarily legal language absolving themselves of a specific stance until a proper draft of their position can be published rather than putting out a position that will alienate and offend.[/QUOTE]

I would agree with you on that in part. Sufficiently vague. I have never met any organization, nor any Macedonian on a personal level who has as low an opinion of Macedonians as UMD does.

I mean the hoops UMD are jumping, the compromises they have been making on our behalf to raise our estimates in the eyes of the fkn West, just amazes me every time.

UMD did not deliberately set out to alienate and offend Macedonians, it just has because of its position on critical issues facing us.

[QUOTE=Buktop;59368]Well, Australians would be my guess, or in particular members here. But the fact that they do not currently have a position means they are taking the time to properly draft a position.[/QUOTE]

C'mon Buktop, get off the fuckin' fence, you must enjoy the splinters in your arse...

"...taking time to properly draft a position"...what a fuckin' imbecile.

The fact that they do not currently have a position is glaring proof of their ineptitude to set a policy in concrete, it shows an inability to set a policy that will protect Macedonian interests, instead their dragging of feet reeks of subservience to somebody elses cause, not that of the Macedonian people...

UMD would much rather craft a dynamic policy, one that will bend in the wind to appease their masters in Washington and their crooked supporters within Macedonia...

Kiro Gligorov: “...The demand that Macedonia change its name is outside the scope of international law and practice. I ask you on the profound implications of agreeing to this demand.

Over two million people are to be told by the EC that, as from tomorrow, they are no longer Macedonians. To deny a people’s identity in this way is humiliating.

It is insulting to their national dignity and a denial of the right of justice for all small nations. In the Balkans, where whole ethnic groups have been changed as part of “ethnic cleansing” through the ages, the demand invokes deep fears.

[QUOTE]Changing a people’s name is but a short step from denying their very existence and rights. It is the people of the Republic of Macedonia who have decided that they want a sovereign and independent state known as the Republic of Macedonia.[/QUOTE]
Gligorov is telling an untruth when he says the people voted for "Republic of" at the 1991 Referendum.

[COLOR="Purple"]Државното име Македонија е затворено со референдумот од 8 септември 1991 година кога македонскиот народ и граѓаните во апсолутно мнозинство одлучија [SIZE="4"]„за самостојна и суверена држава македонија“[/SIZE] без додавки и придавки. Одлуката на референдумот е задолжителна![/COLOR] SMK

[QUOTE]This fact is often ignored in international discussions between governments. The political reality is that any government which bowed to international pressure [COLOR="Red"]to remove Macedonia from the country’s name[/COLOR] would not survive, and any such decision would throw the whole country into turmoil and civil unrest....”[/QUOTE]
Gligorov may sound like an ardent hardliner in the above excerpts to some misguided souls but in reality it is the same doublespeak that UMDovci use and was setting the groundwork for the 1993 UN capitulation. His only prerequisite above is that the word "Macedonia" is PART of the name of the state and does NOT mean it should not be modified by prefixes or suffixes, as he soon afterwards accepted, and as the VASSAL SUCCESSORS are currently advocating for a permanent solution.

The name is our nation’s identity.
The European, December 10-13, 1992.