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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

goran 01-14-2010 04:57 AM

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Hi there,

first of all, we wanted to creat this proposal as neutral as possible. therefore we choosed this name, under which Macedonia has become member of the UN. This name is still valid. when i talk to andreas, we always use just Macedonia and Macedonian.

regarding your questions:

1# Is this project of yours, some private thing that you both just decided to make?
:::::Yes, this project started as a private initiative by andreas and me. We thought, we have to do something to avoid international politicians to accept a name which is not the Republic of Macedonia. Every other name will not lead to a solutions. Greece has to accept this, if not they can use an other name, like Macedonia's prime minister always stated. the socalled double name, a name for greece, and a name for the rest.

2# Do you consider this project legitime in any way, or it is just some kind of University thing that you both decided to do?
:::: Why should a project not be legitime in any way? This has nothing to do with university or something else. The internet is the tool for communication. the have this tool - why shouldn't we use it to inform the world about Macedonia.

3# Do you think that you can push your project result to be accepted in anyway by both concerned Governments?
::: I am in contact with the responsible persons in Macedonia. Although there is no official position to our work (UN negotiations are still ongoing, therefore there will be no comments on this) we know, that we are very close to those proposals, which Macedonia gave in 2008. e.g. Macedonia recommended to establish an expert commission to talk about the antique Macedonia. The point was: if your are sure about your positions, you have nothing to loose. Greece could prove their claims. That is what we are doing, an expert commission is a good thing to solve open issues. Fact is: Greece denied it.

As you see, although this proposal is might a good one for greece as well, they will have major problems with any solution. the politician, who will accept a solution will die politically in Greece. The greek politicians have build a story about macedonia, that is is only greek, and so on, so they have to switch 180 degrees and tell the people, that they lied them.... this is by far more difficult.

I think Greece has no problem with R. of Macedonia at all. This issue is about power of the politicians in Greece. How to make the people there belive in someone who lied more than 20 years to you.

We know the truth, but Greece is denying it - they know why!

Imagine, Greece would recognize all their minorities, the turks, albanian, etc. possible seperations could follow. Greece is not that stable as all might thing.


[QUOTE=makedonin;32458]Hi Goran,

thanx for steping out and speak about your project.

I won't hide that my first impression when I read your project in German was repulsive. From the comments given by the readers of your Blog (site) I could see that I was not the only one. There were Greeks as well Macedonians whose reaction was the same.

I have several concerns and question about your project, which I would put to you due to our conversation.

1# Is this project of yours, some private thing that you both just decided to make?

2# Do you consider this project legitime in any way, or it is just some kind of University thing that you both decided to do?

3# Do you think that you can push your project result to be accepted in anyway by both concerned Governments?

Please take your time, and if you can, answear my questions.

PS.

What I find repulsive and serving no supportive purpose to your project goal is the reference of "FYR Macedonia". But that is just me.[/QUOTE]

goran 01-14-2010 05:01 AM

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I am totaly with you.

Macedonia won't change it name, at least it would be the stupiest thing Macedonia could do.

by solving this issue with this proposal, Macedonia remains with its name, and gets a ticket for memberships to NATO and EU.

I know that Macedonia is sueing Greece for breaking the interim agreement of 1995, but this is life.We will win this trail - but without any political consequences....unfortunately.

Gospod ke gi kazni, eve gledame sto se desava tamu ;)



[QUOTE=makedonin;32461]Well said makgerman.

I would add to your statement that UN have shot it's own legs when they inforced this nagotiations according to Greek proposal.

It is basic human right to self determine. Identity can't be nagotiated by anyone, it is personal and solely given right to any individual and people to decide for them selfs.

So with other words, by keeping the nagotiations, we just state that we ain't certain of our identity.

As for the Greek claim that we are any dangere to their districts of Macedonia (west, central Macedonia and east Macedonia and Thracia districts), well the absurdity of that is self appering.

Botom line, the Greeks are not offering anything in return anyways.[/QUOTE]

Rogi 01-14-2010 07:00 AM

Goran,

What Right or privilege do you believe you have to be proposing solutions which effectively disregard my Right to self-determination and the Sovereignty and the Internationally accepted Sovereign Rights of the Republic of Macedonia?

The so-called solutions you speak of, are political in nature, whilst the issue is not. It is a legal issue. Delving into irrelevant arguments like the one about ancient history, detracts from the crux of this legal issue where Sovereign Rights and Human Rights are at stake - those arguments were created by Greece for the specific purpose of misdirecting the Macedonians into an argument about our history, and politicising it, instead of keeping to the real issue and the clear cut legal argument about our Rights, today.

The 'issues' of which you speak, can be left to the legal considerations and not the political ones. From a legal perspective, there is a very straight forward solution; adherence to the International Laws and accepted norms.

When the Republic of Macedonia takes the issue Greece has created into a purely legal fora as opposed to playing a political game, it will remove the perceived (read propagandised) substance behind the Greek political argument; that is when Greece will lose all of its international support and the matter becomes quite black and white for all of the international community and all of those decision makers who seem to have been misled by political, rather than legal, arguments.

makedonin 01-14-2010 07:08 AM

[QUOTE=goran;32465] Why should a project not be legitime in any way?
[/QUOTE]

Because no one has the right to nagotiate the Identity of the people and the name of the State.

Not anyone from the Government, nor any individual on his own accord.

The problem is that someone from the previous Government (comunists) did entered the name dispute nagotiations.
Now others are trying to find their way out, but don't know how to do that.

Bill77 01-14-2010 08:26 AM

I can't help but question who's interest is Goran serving. Macedonia, himself, Greece ???? a few times you comment in Macedonian some thing similer to "bog ke mu plati" but am not convinced they are genuine feelings. It is possible your Greek friend is saying something similor against us in his Greek threads, which could be all atempts to appease any people that may have doughts about you. Like the posts above say, who gives anyone the right to nagotiate the Identity of the people and the name of the State.

[B]Now i have issues whith this proposal you posted,[/B]

Quote " 4. The members of the Macedonian state-nations (citizens of the Republic of Macedonia) will be named as "Macedonians (MK)" The members of the Macedonian cultural nation will be named as "ethnic Macedonians". [B]A clear differentiation to the Greek Macedonians is given, which identify themselves primarily as Greeks. [/B]

[B]Does this include the Macedonians in egej to call them selves Greek?[/B]


" 6. An independent expert committee (Macedonian, Greek and international experts named by the UN) will be set up by the United Nations to discuss historical issues like the extended Macedonian question, to evaluate them in a scientific manner and define results and recommendations, which have to be recognized by both parties officially. The United Nations define the formation of the international members within this independent expert committee and monitor their work permanently. The members of the Macedonian and Greek side will be named by their countries. As a result of their findings, the expert committee will clarify the different parts of the History of Macedonia by claiming which one is a Greek part and which one belongs to the FYR Macedonia. Furthermore, the relationship between the present Macedonia and the antique Macedonia has to be evaluated as following:


a. Of what kind were the antique Macedonia and the antique Macedonians?


b. Of what kind are the present Macedonia and the present Macedonians?


c. What is the relationship between the antique Macedonia and the antique Macedonians and the present Macedonia and the present Macedonians?"

[B]Do you think Greece would want the truth exposed? has this not already been sugested where Greece refused? why do we Macedonians have to be interegated and probed to see if we have relationship with the Antique Macedonians? It would only be fair if it was eaqualy discussed, historical issues like the extended Greek question, to evaluate them in a scientific manner and define results. After all they claim Macedonia is Greek so lets expose, not only there relationship with Antique Macedonia but the Antique Hellenes aswell? [/B]




"7. Generally, the FYR Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic agree that the Antique Macedonia is not identical with the present Macedonia. Furthermore they agree that a solution of the name issue has to be assumed from the present Macedonia. A possible partial identity of the present Macedonia with the Antique Macedonia will remain unaffected and has to be clarified in pt. 6."

[B]Once we agree with point 7, point 6 will never happen and we can forget about point 6 and this will remain in history forever. Admiting it is not only lieing, but dangerous.[/B]




"9. Until the expert committee does not define a different final agreement, the FYR Macedonia won't raise an objection towards the Hellenic Republic if they refer to the Antique Macedonia."

[B]are they going to want it gift wraped aswell? seriously, what is your agenda? [/B]




"12. The FYR Macedonia will not claim territorial claims on the Greek region of Macedonia, [B]neither on the Greek part of the Macedonian History and Culture."[/B]


[B]come on, what ever Macedonian history and culture there is in the Greek part is Macedonian. You can't change or agree against what it is.[/B]



This proposal stinks and is suicide for Macedonia and Macedonians. It wants us to lie and admit, Modern Macedonia has no relation to ancient and the Antique rights would be given to Greece. This leaves it open and gives Greece reason for Teritorial claims in future. :thumbdown:

TajnataKniga 01-14-2010 08:27 AM

isnt veliki a serbian word?

the airport, the highway, the statues, what else?

Rogi 01-14-2010 08:51 AM

So then what about Veligden (Easter). Based on your understanding, that is a Serbian word, right?

Except the Serbs have a different word for it.

Jankovska 01-14-2010 08:54 AM

[QUOTE=TajnataKniga;32500]isnt veliki a serbian word?

the airport, the highway, the statues, what else?[/QUOTE]

FYI it isn't. Maybe you should learn the Macedonian language better

Veliki means Great, like Aleksandar the Great, Great Britain etc. Not Big which is Golem, but great. It;s a pure Macedonian word. Veligden comes from Velik den and you have them split into Veliki Petok, Velika Sabota i Velika nedela ili Veligden. Very simple, nothing to do with Serbia. In Serbia Veliki means big, in Macedonia it means Great. They may have copied it from us

TajnataKniga 01-14-2010 08:54 AM

im not sure, im not an expert on slavic languages. regardless everything is interconnected and derived from macedonian. you are probably right veliki could be a macedonian word.

TajnataKniga 01-14-2010 08:56 AM

thanks
 
[QUOTE=Jankovska;32518]FYI it isn't. Maybe you should learn the Macedonian language better

Veliki means Great, like Aleksandar the Great, Great Britain etc. Not Big which is Golem, but great. It;s a pure Macedonian word. Veligden comes from Velik den and you have them split into Veliki Petok, Velika Sabota i Velika nedela ili Veligden. Very simple, nothing to do with Serbia[/QUOTE]

thanks for the clarification jankovska, my macedonian is not even close to basic.

and fyi, it was a question not a statement.


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