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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Risto the Great 10-05-2018 03:04 AM

[QUOTE=VMRO;177025]From what i see, DPNE didn't expect the referendum achieving that result, hence why Mickoski through Nikolovski posting around 11am when the vote was sitting at 2.5% that they will be boycotting.

They look like they're received a rejunevation after being on the sidelines all at the expense of a demoralised Dimitrov, Zaev and wider international community who pumped in time and money to promote national suicide of Macedonia.


They now see this as a wave and they're riding it after preparing to just roll over and die.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree.
Now they are simply "sleazing" the opportunity.

Pelagonija 10-05-2018 03:26 PM

Zaev encouraging businessmen in Kriva Palanka to reward people who vote financially

[url]https://www.24.mk/javno-obvinitelstvo-–-registrirani-40-narushuvanja-na-pravoto-na-glas[/url]



Кумановското обвинителство собира материјални докази за предметот кој беше оформен по говорот на премиерот Зоран Заев кога за време на кампањата ги повика бизнисмените да го одврзат ќесето и да ги наградат вработените кои ќе излезат да гласаат- велат извори од истрагата за тв 24. Изворите брифираат дека до сега никој не бил повикан на распит. Официјално Обвинителството, не открива повеќе детали

„Се однесува за кривична пријава од две политичките партии и граѓанското здружение за настан во тек на кампањата за говор од премиерот. Кривичната пријава е поднесена до Скопското обвинителство од каде е препратена до ОЈО во Куманово. Предметот е оформен, распределен е кај надлежен јавен обвинител и натаму се постапува на проверка на наводите содржани во кривичната пријава“, вели Џељаљ Бајрами

Пред повеќе од 2 недели, опозициската ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, го обвини Заев дека* за време на кампањата во крива Паланка,* отворено ги повикал бизнисмените со пари да ги мотивираат вработените да гласаат на референдумот.* Од партијата тогаш информираа дека со кривична пријава доставиле и** и видеото од неговиот говор во Крива Паланка.

Презентирајќи го извештајот на Привремената комисија на ЈОРМ,** обвинителот Џељаљ Бајрами истака и дека за време на референдумот биле регистрирани 40 наручувања на правото на глас, од кои 29 само во Скопје.Најголемиот дел од нив според Бајрами биле* расчистени уште истиот ден. Имало и нарушувања на јавниот ред и мир, обиди да се фотографираат гласачки ливчиња.

It

Pelagonija 10-05-2018 05:57 PM

Gwu the "patriot" with the fat wallet is going to Jail.. does this mean Zaev is one seat closer to reaching his 2/3 majority? Jeez Zaev wasn't joking when he said he'd get the 2/3 in parliament. The question is now can dpmne let there sugar daddy go to jail or will they make the deal?

[url]https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/jail-looms-for-macedonia-s-ex-premier-amid-row-over-name-deal-1.3653268?mode=amp[/url]

Pelagonija 10-05-2018 06:53 PM

Interesting article:

- Catolonias referundam had a 42% turn out with %92 voting yes for independence deemed as a failure by the EU.
- MKD referundam had a 37% turn out with %91 for deemed as successful by the EU

[url]https://alfa.mk/референдумска-исклучивост-само-во-м/[/url]

I suggest critical thinking training for those who believe in fantasy utopias such as democracy, EU, NATO and the US. These hubs of accumulated wealth are only wealthy because of there exploitation of the rest of the world.

BTW can we get Struga and Kicevo back as 90% voted for in 2004?

Carlin 10-06-2018 09:55 AM

[QUOTE=VMRO;177026]What's your take on all of this, i noticed you follow Macedonian politics quite closely.[/QUOTE]

I've only been following it in recent months, for obvious reasons.

Zaev got too arrogant, or was too naive/optimistic, and rushed the whole process making a couple of mistakes along the way:
- The bloated/incorrect voter list needed to be reviewed and revised prior to the referendum (probably it was going to take too long so he pressed on regardless)
- He always knew that the turnout would be less than 50%, yet he still pressed on with the process/referendum[COLOR="blue"]*[/COLOR]
- The [I]"parade"[/I] of western leaders to Macedonia providing support and backing gave many people the illusion that the referendum outcome and constitutional changes were all somehow a foregone conclusion

As far as DPMNE goes, one could say they've gone off the deep end a long time ago. I've not seen any corroboration in Macedonian media that would support any of their claims of massive voter fraud and stuffing of ballot boxes. I also disagree with their claims that all those who didn't vote "boycotted" the referendum. The ordinary people in Macedonia, regardless of their ethnic background, have been disillusioned for a long time and many probably didn't vote for the simple reason of being completely cynical or sour about politics/voting in general (this may explain why many people were not very well informed about the name agreement in the first place, as we saw from a couple of earlier articles in this thread - perhaps they coulnd't care less).

Maybe I am completely out to lunch on this one - including all points above - but that's my impression.

PS:

[COLOR="blue"]*[/COLOR] Zaev [B]knew[/B] the turnout would be way less than 50% and so did N. Kotzias, as Zaev relayed this info himself to Kotzias. See this article:

[url]https://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/makedonija/%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0-%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0/[/url]

[B][COLOR="Blue"]Greece's Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias, said after the referendum on September 30 in an interview with the Greek ERT that they had over-optimistic forecasts regarding the turnout.

- [B][COLOR="Red"][U]We had information from the Government in Skopje that between 40 and 45 per cent would turn out in the referendum[/U]. We, however, thought the turnout would be 41 percent. It turned out that the response was lower than that[/COLOR][/B], Kotzias said.[/COLOR][/B]

vicsinad 10-06-2018 10:14 AM

Potential disinformation, but:

SDS claims 6 DPNE MPs are considering casting votes in favor of the name agreement in parliament.

[URL="https://www.slobodnaevropa.mk/a/29529190.html"]https://www.slobodnaevropa.mk/a/29529190.html[/URL]



Денеска потпретседателот и пратеник на СДСМ Мухамед Зеќири изјави дека дека се во постојана комуникација со пратениците од ВМРО-ДПМНЕ со цел да се обезбеди двотретинско мнозинство за уставни измени , а кога ќе има конкретна информација ќе биде соопштена во јавност.

На прашањето дали ќе се разговара и со поранешниот претседател на ВМРО ДПМНЕ Никола Груевски, одговори дека Груевски „ќе си заврши таму каде што треба да заврши согласно вчерашната одлука од Апелација и оти "неговиот глас не е потребен“.

Инаку телевизијата Телма денеска повикувајки се на свои извори објави дека шестмина пратеници од ВМРО ДПМНЕ преговараат за можноста да го дадат својот глас за уставни измени.

Владата постави рок од десет дена за да се знае дали ќе се обезбеди двотретинско мнозинство за уставните измени или, пак, ќе се оди на предвремени брзи избори следниот месец.

Carlin 10-06-2018 10:28 AM

[QUOTE=vicsinad;177040]Potential disinformation, but:

SDS claims 6 DPNE MPs are considering casting votes in favor of the name agreement in parliament.

[URL="https://www.slobodnaevropa.mk/a/29529190.html"]https://www.slobodnaevropa.mk/a/29529190.html[/URL]



Денеска потпретседателот и пратеник на СДСМ Мухамед Зеќири изјави дека дека се во постојана комуникација со пратениците од ВМРО-ДПМНЕ со цел да се обезбеди двотретинско мнозинство за уставни измени , а кога ќе има конкретна информација ќе биде соопштена во јавност.

На прашањето дали ќе се разговара и со поранешниот претседател на ВМРО ДПМНЕ Никола Груевски, одговори дека Груевски ќе си заврши таму каде што треба да заврши согласно вчерашната одлука од Апелација и оти "неговиот глас не е потребен.

Инаку телевизијата Телма денеска повикувајки се на свои извори објави дека шестмина пратеници од ВМРО ДПМНЕ преговараат за можноста да го дадат својот глас за уставни измени.

Владата постави рок од десет дена за да се знае дали ќе се обезбеди двотретинско мнозинство за уставните измени или, пак, ќе се оди на предвремени брзи избори следниот месец.[/QUOTE]

I've seen this on telma tv as well:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRijyKI3uA&feature=youtu.be[/url]

Rogi 10-06-2018 05:02 PM

I read most of the news in Macedonia, particularly over the last 48-72 hours, as accelerated election-tine attempts by each party to discredit one another or blur the lines between them and get the people back into the "disilussioned with politics" camp. Looking at the sources of the stories and the lack of them being corroborated, I take most of them with a grain of salt.

From stories about Edinstvena Makedonija which are then rebutted, to stories about a wide electoral coalition particularly among the Albanians, which are then rebutted by Sela, to stories about MP discussions and whatever they may come up with next.

Most people in Macedonia are also taking a fairly cynical view of the media, which has really lost its' credibility, however little it may have had, in the eyes of the general populace - another fallout of the referendum and the blatant spin and probably one of the least mentioned things in Macedonia is the substantially decreased role the media has in the ability to sway or influence the masses.

VMRO 10-07-2018 03:40 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;177036]I've only been following it in recent months, for obvious reasons.

Zaev got too arrogant, or was too naive/optimistic, and rushed the whole process making a couple of mistakes along the way:
- The bloated/incorrect voter list needed to be reviewed and revised prior to the referendum (probably it was going to take too long so he pressed on regardless)
- He always knew that the turnout would be less than 50%, yet he still pressed on with the process/referendum[COLOR="blue"]*[/COLOR]
- The [I]"parade"[/I] of western leaders to Macedonia providing support and backing gave many people the illusion that the referendum outcome and constitutional changes were all somehow a foregone conclusion

As far as DPMNE goes, one could say they've gone off the deep end a long time ago. I've not seen any corroboration in Macedonian media that would support any of their claims of massive voter fraud and stuffing of ballot boxes. I also disagree with their claims that all those who didn't vote "boycotted" the referendum. The ordinary people in Macedonia, regardless of their ethnic background, have been disillusioned for a long time and many probably didn't vote for the simple reason of being completely cynical or sour about politics/voting in general (this may explain why many people were not very well informed about the name agreement in the first place, as we saw from a couple of earlier articles in this thread - perhaps they coulnd't care less).

Maybe I am completely out to lunch on this one - including all points above - but that's my impression.

PS:

[COLOR="blue"]*[/COLOR] Zaev [B]knew[/B] the turnout would be way less than 50% and so did N. Kotzias, as Zaev relayed this info himself to Kotzias. See this article:

[url]https://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/makedonija/%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0-%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0/[/url]

[B][COLOR="Blue"]Greece's Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias, said after the referendum on September 30 in an interview with the Greek ERT that they had over-optimistic forecasts regarding the turnout.

- [B][COLOR="Red"][U]We had information from the Government in Skopje that between 40 and 45 per cent would turn out in the referendum[/U]. We, however, thought the turnout would be 41 percent. It turned out that the response was lower than that[/COLOR][/B], Kotzias said.[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]


The voting list had been looked into prior to the 2016 elections, it was one of the Przino points.

SDS at that time we're claiming DPNE were had an electoral roll that had dead people etc on it. In the end SDS we're happy with the reconciliation (Maybe they too used this to falsify votes and win in both the parliamentary elections and local).

This time i think it backfired on them, i honestly think they did falsify voting as they found voting slips missing and exceeded votes in certain polling booths where the population is less than what voted.

DIK confirmed irregularities but will not look into further, their reason being it will not change the result.

VMRO 10-07-2018 03:42 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;177043]I've seen this on telma tv as well:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRijyKI3uA&feature=youtu.be[/url][/QUOTE]

I wouldn't believe the media, especially TELMA.

Even if 6 do cross over and vote, their political careers will most likely end and it is still not enough to get the required 80.


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