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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Jankovska 11-16-2009 06:22 AM

It's all one big joke and no one seems to give a flying fuck about the people and the name. Goverment should come out and stop the negotiations straight away, if not they should be removed from cabinet and parliment.

Soldier of Macedon 11-16-2009 07:15 AM

[QUOTE="Pelister"]Yes, but the Macedonian government has already offered a number of name change proposals, which have been rejected by Greece.[/QUOTE]
Good point Pelister, but were these offers for a complete change or only at the bi-lateral level? I tend to think the latter, but don't recall exactly at the moment because it has been a while since this was last discussed in detail. Can I trouble you for the relevant links from when these offers were proposed?

Bill77 11-16-2009 07:28 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;27139]Good point Pelister, but were these offers for a complete change or only at the bi-lateral level? I tend to think the latter, but don't recall exactly at the moment because it has been a while since this was last discussed in detail. Can I trouble you for the relevant links from when these offers were proposed?[/QUOTE]Try this site SOM. You might get some of the dates and all other news concerning the past negotiations press release's.

[url]http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/keyword/issue/name_dispute[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 11-16-2009 08:25 AM

RtG, let's put up a hypothetical situation; Gruevski pulls Macedonia out of these pathetic negotiations tomorrow.

Where does that leave the Macedonians in Greece and their relation to the Macedonians in Macedonia?

Soldier of Macedon 11-16-2009 08:28 AM

[QUOTE]The negotiation process has dramatically worsened during the last round of Athens-Skopje name talks in New York. Greece stepped up its demands and Macedonia offered no additional concessions, local media cite unnamed Macedonian government sources as saying.

According to A1 TV, while at the parlay with the UN name mediator Matthew Nimetz on Thursday, the Greek negotiator, Adamantios Vassilakis delivered a list of steep demands that set back efforts to find a solution.

Athens now insists its neighbor’s name be changed to the Republic of Northern Macedonia for full international use, as well as for Macedonian nationality to be specified as Northern Macedonian. Skopje has already said it would insist on preserving the Macedonian nationality classification, A1 TV said.

Moreover, Vassilakis insisted that the current use of the name Macedonia for commercial purposes is unacceptable for Greece, which requires all products bound for EU member-states to lose the Macedonia prefix and acquire the new one. The international code MK, as well as the Internet domain .mk. should also be altered, A1 says.

Citing unnamed diplomatic sources, the TV said that Nimetz has already notified the UN of this unfavorable shift in negotiations.

Macedonia wants a mutually acceptable solution to the name issue, one that preserves the identity, dignity and integrity of Macedonian citizens, the Macedonian negotiator in the name talks, Ambassador Zoran Jolevski, told Nimetz at a separate meeting in New York late Friday.

According to Macedonian media, Jolevski offered no additional concessions on Macedonia’s stance, stating that Skopje remains supportive of what has become known as the double name formula, envisaging one name to be used for interactions with Greece while maintaining the country’s current official name for wider international use. This was already rejected by Greece.

Last year, Athens blocked Skopje’s NATO accession over the 18 years-long spat. Athens insists that Skopje’s official name, the Republic of Macedonia, implies territorial claims towards its own northern province — also called Macedonia.

The new developments come after the EU urged both sides towards a speedy compromise in order to avoid another unpleasant Greek veto in December at the EU council. It is then that Skopje hopes to acquire a date for its EU accession talks, but Athens has reiterated that this will not happen if there is no breakthrough in the name talks.

A repeat Greek blockade can be avoided, Greece’s latest stance asserts, on the condition that Skopje informs Nimetz that it agrees to change its name. In that case, all additional details would be agreed upon by early next year.[/QUOTE]
VRMO, please post the article along with the link when you create these threads.

Soldier of Macedon 11-16-2009 08:46 AM

Thanks for that Bill, unfortunately they don't appear to back-date far enough, I think some of the comments that Pelister may be making reference to were made during early 2008, around the time Macedonia was vetoed by the xenophobic racists and politicians of Greece.

Jankovska 11-16-2009 12:34 PM

[QUOTE=Prolet;27089]There is good and bad in all this, if Greece Vetoes in December then it would be the perfect time to get out of these negotiations. If we get a date it would mean that the EU will give us a time frame in order for us to join the EU so we are looking at 2012 at the earliest, either way if Greece blocks us then we have to consider our options.[/QUOTE]

They Vetoed once and we are still talking, what makes you think we will pull out this time. We need someone to grow some balls in the Macedonian goverment soon. Otherwise we are fucked

George S. 11-16-2009 03:49 PM

i just heard the name talks are off they have been postponed.Mathew nimmetz is a puppet he gets paid a lot of money.He wan'ts Macedonia to simply change it's name.Regardless of that he want's to pressure the Macedonian government to change their name.The name is whatever the Greeks decide is acceptable.THey don't give jack shit what Macedonia wants.
On the aspect that politicians are sticking with certain policies ie no name change well some of them are under huge pressure to change & change is coming because they don't have much choice.

George S. 11-16-2009 04:16 PM

Isn't it funny how the first blockade by greece was totally illegal & greece was allowed to use the blockade with hardly a finger lifted.Greece was taken to court over that blockade & nothing happened.Macedonia suffered immensly & was not compensated.We hope there is no blockade this time.Greece does not want the double name formula & it's not going to give concessions to Macedonia.

Bill77 11-16-2009 04:18 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;27144]RtG, let's put up a hypothetical situation; Gruevski pulls Macedonia out of these pathetic negotiations tomorrow.

Where does that leave the Macedonians in Greece and their relation to the Macedonians in Macedonia?[/QUOTE]Acording to the letter Rainbow sent to Nimetz back in early 2008, My understanding is they would be more than happy for Gruevski to pull out. To me its obvious they were and are against double name formula. I will give you a couple of quotes by Rainbow regarding earlier name proposals folowed by the link.

Quote: "We write in relation to your latest proposal regarding the so-called "name" dispute between our country, Greece and the neighboring Republic of Macedonia. Our position on this issue is well known and indeed it has been outlined to you on several occasions over the past few years."

We wish to comment on two names that you have listed in Annex 1, namely "Republic of Upper Macedonia" and "New Republic of Macedonia".

In relation to "Upper Macedonia", while the Greek government has indicated its willingness to agree to this name (as the Greek media has reported in the last few days), it should be pointed out that this name is inconsistent with its official position. If an "Upper Macedonia" exists then logically there is also a "Lower Macedonia." Therefore having this in mind, how can the Greek government argue, among other things, that the name "Republic of Macedonia" has irredentist claims on northern Greece, but the name "Upper Macedonia" would not? It is clear that a name such as "Upper Macedonia" could encourage irredentism on BOTH sides, which therefore means that it is problematic.


As for the proposal "New Republic of Macedonia", we must stress that every adjective related to the national-ethnic character of the state and its population directly or indirectly rejects ethnic Macedonian identity, both in respect to citizens of the Republic of Macedonia and members of the ethnic Macedonian minority in Greece. If ethnic Greeks who live in the historical territory known as "Macedonia" have the right to a "Greek-Macedonian" cultural identity (even though the majority of them arrived in the area in 1922-1928) then why do ethnic Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia (living also in a part of the historical territory known as "Macedonia") not have the right to the historical and cultural past of the same area? If the prefix "New" is intended to distinguish between modern Macedonia and ancient Macedonia, then logically, the same should also apply to Greece’s name i.e. Greece should be called "New Greece" because modern Greece is not the same as ancient Greece

we wish to make the following suggestion. A key component of a fair, just and viable solution to this "dispute" will be one which safeguards ethnic and cultural identity.

“"The Greek state recognizes the existence of a distinct ethnic Macedonian identity as it is expressed and has developed in the Republic of Macedonia and elsewhere as a separate ethnic identity different from the Greek-Macedonian cultural identity that developed in the Greek state after 1912-1913 when a part of Macedonia was incorporated into the Greek state."

"The Republic of Macedonia recognizes the existence of a separate and distinct Greek-Macedonian cultural identity as has developed in the Greek state after 1912-1913."

[url]http://say-macedonia.blogspot.com/2008/02/efa-rainbows-letter-to-mr-matthew.html[/url]


So to answer your question SOM It would bring the Macedonians in FOROM (foriegn ocupied region of Macedonia) delighted and not betrade.


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