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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

vicsinad 01-11-2019 10:43 AM

Compromise is that BESA's requests will be incorporated in laws, and not the constitution.

[URL="https://novatv.mk/postignat-e-dogovor-baranata-na-besa-ke-se-vgradat-vo-zakoni-a-ne-vo-ustavot/"]https://novatv.mk/postignat-e-dogovor-baranata-na-besa-ke-se-vgradat-vo-zakoni-a-ne-vo-ustavot/[/URL]

Собраниската седница за уставните измени ќе продолжи во 16 часот, откако како што се дознава, постигнат е договор, двајцата пратеници на крилото на Беса чиј претсдедател е Биљаљ Касами да гласаат за уставните амандмани.

Договорот е постигнат на денешната средба на премиерот Зоран Заев и претставници на Беса, која предмалку завршила. Како што неофицијално се дознава, договорот е барања на Беса да бидат вградени во закони, а не во Уставот.

Дека е постигнат договор потврди на прес-конференција во Собранието портпаролот на СДСМ, Костадин Костадинов, но рече дека за деталите ќе следува соопштение.
Со ова, владејачкото мнозинство обезбедува 80 гласови за изгласување на уставните амандмани за имплементација на Договорот од Преспа.

Што бараше Беса

За Билал Касами спорно е што со предвиденото во Договорот од Преспа „македонско/граѓани на Р. Северна Македонија“ со албанскиот превод се добива двојно значење и тоа „македонски”, но и „Македонец”.

Придавката „македонско“ при преводот на албански, има поинакво значење, поради тоа Беса предложи амандман, за граѓаните од албанска етничка припадност во државјанствата на македонски јазик да гласи македонско/граѓани на Р. Северна Македонија, а на албански јазик да биде eMaqedonise Veriore и на англиски јазик macedonian/citizen of Republic of North Macedonia.

vicsinad 01-11-2019 11:16 AM

Everybody has played their cards perfectly: the Greeks, the Bulgarians, the Albanians. Everybody but the Macedonians.

[URL="https://telma.com.mk/se-nadminaa-razlikite-soopshtenie-na-vlada-i-besa/"]https://telma.com.mk/se-nadminaa-razlikite-soopshtenie-na-vlada-i-besa/[/URL]

[QUOTE]Ја информираме јавноста дека е постигнат договор со кој се надминати разликите за коишто информиравме дека постојат, се вели во заедничкото соопштение испратено од Бладата и партијата Беса.

Уште еднаш потврдуваме дека државјанството е македонско/граѓанин на Република Северна Македонија, при тоа прифатен е амандман на Уставниот закон со кој се потврдува државјанството македонско/граѓанин на Република Северна Македонија и се појаснува како ќе гласи за граѓаните Албанци на албански јазик, и ќе се утврди во сите закони каде што е тоа потребно.

Истовремено, се прифати амандманот на уставниот амандман XXXVI со кој се потврдува дека Републиката подеднакво води грижа за дијаспората на сите свои граѓани.
Дополнително во законот за лична карта ќе се впише и етничката припадност на граѓаните.

За сите други работи кои беа предложени како амандмани ќе бидат повлечени затоа што правно формално не е можно да се реализираат сега, а остануваме посветени во идно време да работиме на нивно решавање со цел да ги отстраниме и таквиот вид на проблеми со кои се соочуваат граѓаните, а заради постигнување на заедничките европски вредности, соопштуваат од Владата и од Беса.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]We inform the public that an agreement has been reached that has overcome the differences that we have informed that there are, said in a joint statement sent by the Bland and the Besa party.

Once again, we confirm that citizenship is a Macedonian citizen of the Republic of Northern Macedonia, and an amendment to the Constitutional Law confirming the citizenship of the Republic of Northern Macedonia is accepted and it is clarified how it will be for Albanians in Albanian language, and will be determine in all laws where it is necessary.

At the same time, the amendment of the constitutional amendment XXXVI was accepted, which confirms that the Republic equally takes care of the diaspora of all its citizens.

In addition to the law on identity card, the ethnicity of the citizens will also be included.

All other things that were proposed as amendments will be withdrawn because they are not legally formally possible to be realized now, and we remain committed in the future to work on their resolution in order to eliminate the kind of problems that citizens face , and for the achievement of common European values, announced by the Government and Besa.[/QUOTE]

Gocka 01-11-2019 12:35 PM

If he had the required votes, why did he persist to make more concessions? Why does Zaev desire so badly to appease everyone at the expense of his own people.

Utterly pathetic.

vicsinad 01-11-2019 01:00 PM

[QUOTE=Gocka;178350]If he had the required votes, why did he persist to make more concessions? Why does Zaev desire so badly to appease everyone at the expense of his own people.

Utterly pathetic.[/QUOTE]


Собранието вечерва ги изгласа уставните измени кои произлегоа од Договорот со Грција.

За сите амандмани гласаа 81 пратеник „за“, со што се разреши дилемата дали власта ќе успее да обезбеди двотретинско мнозинство.

[URL="https://fokus.mk/ustavnite-izmeni-izglasani-so-81-glas-za/"]https://fokus.mk/ustavnite-izmeni-izglasani-so-81-glas-za/[/URL]

vicsinad 01-11-2019 01:06 PM

Now we are responsible for every Balkan people's diasporas...

[QUOTE]The new text promulgated today changes the third stance which now reads: "The Republic takes care of the diaspora of the Macedonian people and for the part of the Albanian people, the Turkish people, the Vlach people, the Serbian people, the Romani people, the Bosniak people and others, and nurtures and promotes ties with the homeland."

[/QUOTE]

vicsinad 01-11-2019 01:20 PM

From an article in Western media. Although this is a generous phrasing of Macedonia's capitulation, at least it's recognized:

[QUOTE]Macedonia made the [B][U]unusual concession of effectively giving its neighbor veto power over its own name [/U][/B]in June, when Tsipras and Prime Minister Zoran Zaev met in the northern Greek municipality of Prespes and agreed that the country could call itself the Republic of North Macedonia. Greece in exchange pledged support for its neighbor’s accession to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the European Union, both of which it had previously blocked.[/QUOTE]

[URL="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-11/greek-government-teeters-as-partner-threatens-exit-on-macedonia"]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-11/greek-government-teeters-as-partner-threatens-exit-on-macedonia[/URL]

Niko777 01-11-2019 01:53 PM

[QUOTE=vicsinad;178352]Macedonian people and the Albanian people, the Turkish people, the Vlach people, the Serbian people, the Romani people, the Bosniak people and others[/QUOTE]

I've noticed this has been the rhetoric from Macedonia's politicians in the last few years whenever they addressed the country in speeches, for example if they were issuing a Christmas greeting or opening a new piece of infrastructure, regardless if it was Ivanov, Gruevski, Zaev...

Tomche Makedonche 01-11-2019 02:16 PM

[B][SIZE="7"][COLOR="Red"]Amendments Passed - the Republic is North Macedonia now[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

[QUOTE][url]https://www.rferl.org/a/macedonia-lawmakers-set-again-to-debate-name-change-amid-uncertainty/29702996.html[/url]

[B]Macedonian Parliament Votes To Change Country's Name[/B]

Macedonia’s parliament has approved a constitutional amendment that renames the country the Republic of North Macedonia.

Eighty-one deputies in the 120-seat parliament voted in favor, securing the required two-thirds majority. Representatives of the opposition VMRO-DPMNE boycotted the vote that took place on January 11.

The name change will help resolve a decades-long dispute with neighboring Greece -- opening the way for Skopje to join NATO and the European Union.

At the start of the parliamentary session, Prime Minister Zoran Zaev told lawmakers the name change would "open the doors to the future, Macedonia's European future.”

Several hundred people have protested against the deal in front of parliament over the past three days.

The vote came after three days of negotiations between Zaev and lawmakers that opposed the change.

Zaev's governing coalition needed opposition backing to get the required number of votes and had said on January 10 that it was struggling to achieve that after a small ethnic Albanian party raised last-minute objections.

Talks between government and opposition lawmakers continued for a second day on January 11 following repeated delays in the vote.

The governments of Macedonia and Greece both struggled to secure the political support required to ratify the agreement reached last June.

Opponents to the proposal say they are defending Macedonia's name, identity, and history, as well as the traditions of the Macedonian people, against what they call "the greatest national treachery."

Athens argues that use of the term “Macedonia” implies territorial claims on Greece’s northern province of the same name and on its ancient heritage.

For the deal to come into effect, Greece's parliament must now convene in coming weeks to ratify it.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who is on a working visit to Athens, has expressed strong support for the agreement.[/QUOTE]

Tomche Makedonche 01-11-2019 02:18 PM

[url]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-11/balkan-state-backs-name-change-in-step-toward-joining-nato-eu[/url]

[B]Republic of Macedonia Approves Name Change In Step Toward Joining EU[/B]

The Republic of Macedonia cleared its biggest hurdle to joining NATO and the European Union by passing an amendment to change its name and solve a decades-long dispute with Greece.

The parliamentary vote shifts the advantage to the West in its struggle for influence with Cold War foe Russia over the Balkans, Europe’s most volatile region. It also fulfills an agreement struck last year in which Greece pledged to lift its vetoes on the Balkan state’s bids to join the world’s largest trading bloc and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Prime Minister Zoran Zaev won a two-thirds majority in the chamber Friday to rename the ex-Yugoslav country to "The Republic of North Macedonia," parliament Speaker Talat Xhaferi said in Skopje. Now the baton passes to Athens, where Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is facing resistance from nationalist opponents to his pledge to ratify the deal and sign off on Macedonia’s NATO accession.

Read how Greece’s government is wobbling over the vote on Macedonia

“This is a big deal, even more significant at a time when there’s uncertainty in democracies in the West, in the future of Europe and in the role of the U.S.,” Damon Wilson, executive vice president at the Atlantic Council in Washington, said by phone. “Tsipras has already taken the tough decisions in the political barbs by doing the agreement in the first place, so he’s got every incentive to follow through.”

Although his ruling coalition lacked sufficient votes, Zaev found backing among parties representing the country’s ethnic-Albanian minority and independents who defected from the opposition VMRO-DPMNE party, which rejected the plan.

"We have taken ownership of our destiny," The Republic of Macedonia’s foreign minister, Nikola Dimitrov, said after the vote. "We have proven that miracles are possible. We demonstrated that we are European, not only geographically, but also in terms of European values. I am proud to be on the right side of history.

VMRO-DPMNE boycotted the vote and President Gjorge Ivanov, their ally, has refused to sign off on the deal. Zaev has said that the president’s green light isn’t required, but in a sign that not all of his compatriots support the plan, several hundred people protested in front of parliament, Channel 5 reported.

[U]Opponent Russia[/U]

Another opponent is Russia, which sees eastern Europe as its sphere of influence. It objects to the expansion of NATO into the Balkans and has accused the U.S. and the EU of helping force the name change.
The dispute centered around Greece’s insistence that the name "Macedonia" only applies to its northern province, the ancient stronghold of Alexander the Great. Tsipras faces a tough task to overcome his nationalist partners in the ruling coalition. They’ve threatened to leave the government if he manages to push through his part of the agreement.

EU and NATO leaders have urged both countries to quickly follow through as soon as possible. NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said in October that Macedonia’s accession talks may be completed by end-January. And earlier on Friday, German Chancellor Angela Merkel appealed to detractors in the Greek government to back the deal through during a visit to Athens.

"This is in all of our interests that this problem can be resolved, that the western Balkan region can stabilize,” she told reporters. "We’ve never been as close to resolving this question as we are now."

vicsinad 01-11-2019 02:37 PM

The biggest lesson for me, and for Macedonians, and for the world, is this: abuse of power, blackmail, coercion, bribery, threats, violence -- this is how you get what you want.

Greece blackmailed Macedonia.
Albanians used violence.
SDS and DPNE used and/or succumbed to bribery and blackmail.
Bulgaria used threats.
Etc.


Either you keep your dignity, values, and clear conscience and end up with nothing but your integrity; or you sacrifice those all for your other interests.

Macedonians, take note of this if we want to preserve our identity, culture, nation, and homeland.


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