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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

VMRO 06-19-2018 06:17 PM

If i was to believe someone regarding what Macedonia can and cant do with regards to the constitution it is Todor Petrov who is somewhat of an expert when it comes to the Macedonian constitution.

Another person also highly knowledgeable is Dimitar Apasiev who believes the referendum would fail. Apasiev places Ivanov as the supreme individual who has final say on the constitution as it his the presidents duty to protect the constitution.


The problem with Macedonian media and certain individuals is that they're notorious at spreading false news and the average Macedonian has not learnt his lesson at not believing the amateur news portals in the country.

Pelagonija 06-19-2018 06:34 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;174277]According to Todor Petrov, 2/3 parliament majority is still needed after a referendum for the constitution to be changed.

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=174273#post174273[/url]

Where did you hear different?[/QUOTE]

If 1/3 is required then why is ZZ bothering when VMRO won’t support him? Unless it’s not legal or they plan on breaking the law?

Vangelovski 06-19-2018 06:55 PM

I feel like I'm watching an episode of the twilight zone here.

Has anyone bothered to read the Macedonian constitution? You can find the English version here:

[url]https://www.sobranie.mk/the-constitution-of-the-republic-of-macedonia.nspx[/url]

You don't need training in constitutional law. A plain reading of the document will suffice. The relevant sections are Articles 129-131 and Amendment XVIII. If you're still having trouble, ask me.

But if you're looking at the legality of this whole agreement then the answer is simple: its invalid. Its unconstitutional simply because it violates the sovereignty of the state (see Article 1 - the very first one!), though there are other problems with it too. It's also a violation of international law because the agreement has been signed under coercion. Sure, Zaev happily danced the Zorba all the way, but the very reason the Macedonia even contemplated a name change was because of Greek coercion. There's a million other problems with the agreement that clearly violate both individual human rights and state rights under various international human rights conventions and international treaties, but none of this matters - it will all be overlooked by everyone.

The situation is well beyond civilities like law and convention. Only a rabid mass can stop it now.

Soldier of Macedon 06-19-2018 07:00 PM

Legally it cannot happen according to the below.
[QUOTE]Article 131

The decision to initiate a change in the Constitution is made by the Assembly by a two-thirds majority vote of the total number of Representatives. The draft amendment to the Constitution is confirmed by the Assembly by a majority vote of the total number of Representatives and then submitted to public debate. The decision to change the Constitution is made by the Assembly by a two-thirds majority vote of the total number of Representatives. The change in the Constitution is declared by the Assembly.[/QUOTE]

Vangelovski 06-19-2018 07:13 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;174285]Legally it cannot happen according to the below.[/QUOTE]In addition, there has to be a majority of ethnic minorities (Albanian) in favour as well. We have to ask them for permission too remember, particularly as this will involve changes to articles that relate to ethnicity and culture (Amendment XVIII).

But I don't understand why they wouldn't be able to meet the requirements of this procedure? We all know that DPMNE will capitulate when the time comes. They always do.

And even if they don't, like I said, its not just this one procedure that brings the agreement into question (legally). If they don't care about any of the rest, why on earth will they care about the procedure for amendment?

Vangelovski 06-19-2018 07:20 PM

The only thing that is not clear to me now is the question of Macedonian ethnicity. The agreement does not mention it anywhere (granted its not something you can actually legislate on). The agreement stipulates our new nationality (which under international law is citizenship). Citizens will now be "[I]Macedonians/Citizens of the Republic of North Macedonia[/I]", but the Preamble for example talks about the Macedonian people in an ethnic sense. I'm sure Zaev will interpret 'nationality' at its broadest possible level and include ethnicity, meaning that we will be ethnic [I]Macedonians/Citizens of the Republic of North Macedonia [/I]causing a ridiculousness beyond comprehension for all of the obvious reasons.

Stojacanec 06-19-2018 07:58 PM

My fear is the majority of the people have no real comprehension of the constitution or lawmaking. They would be blindsided by their government and accept what is said on face value.

Niko777 06-19-2018 08:56 PM

If they do need a 2/3 majority in parliament, then it will all boil down to how Dpmne votes in parliament.

One dpmne member believes that the party's leadership is controlled by foreign ambassadors and that they will vote [U]for[/U] the constitutional changes: "кога на ред ќе дојде гласањето за уставните измени за името, тогаш дел од пратениците кои се под закани и закани од кривични пријави, ќе гласаа за измените."

Link: [url]https://fokus.mk/petrovski-imame-audio-i-video-dokazi-deka-mitskoski-go-neutralizira-chlenstvoto-da-ne-odi-na-protesti/[/url]

Tomche Makedonche 06-19-2018 09:05 PM

[url]http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-launches-ratification-of-historic-name-deal-06-19-2018[/url]

[B]Macedonia Launches Ratification of Historic 'Name' Deal[/B]

In a tense atmosphere, Macedonian legislators launched the procedure for the swift adoption of the 'name' agreement with neighbouring Greece - key for unlocking country's EU and NATO integration

Sixty-nine MPs in Macedonia’s 120-seat parliament voted for the agreement with Greece to rename the country the Republic of North Macedonia to be put to a plenary session of the legislature in a fast-track procedure, while 40 voted against, mainly MPs from the opposition right-wing VMRO DPMNE.

During Foreign Minister Nikola Dimitrov’s speech in parliament in defence of the deal, opposition legislators shouted “traitor” at him.

After the vote, they left the parliament session in protest.

The ratification of the agreement at the parliamentary plenary session is expected to happen tomorrow, although this has not yet been officially confirmed.

"Since the opposition MPs left parliament and said they will not participate in the adoption of this document, the necessary procedures will be speedier and we are making efforts to ratify it tomorrow," an MP from the ruling majority told BIRN on Tuesday on condition of anonymity.

Macedonia is chasing a tight deadline for the ratification of the historic deal in order not to miss its opportunity to get an agreement for the long-awaited start of EU accession talks at the EU Council of Ministers’ meeting on June 25-26 - as well as an invitation to join NATO at the military alliance’s summit, which is set for July 11.

Once the Macedonian parliament ratifies the agreement, signed on Sunday by Dimitrov and his Greek counterpart Nikos Kotzias, Athens is expected to make the next move by sending letters to NATO and the EU, informing them that it no longer objects to the Republic of North Macedonia’s membership of these organisations.

The ratification will almost certainly not be signed by Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov, who objects to the name deal, in which case a second vote in parliament will be required.

However, Ivanov’s refusal to sign the ratification is not expected to block the process but merely prolong it slightly.

While the first vote took place in parliament, a group of several hundred opponents of the agreement demonstrated outside amid a heavy police presence, calling on MPs to resign and join them in protest.

Unlike on Sunday when police used tear gas and shock grenades to prevent angry protesters from storming parliament, Tuesday’s protest was calm.

People chanted slogans against Prime Minister Zoran Zaev calling him a “traitor”, as well against what they called an “illegitimate parliament”.

The protesters then headed to the nearby HQ of the main opposition VMRO DPMNE party, demanding a meeting with party leader Hristijan Mickovski, but were not granted one.

Mickovski has previously said he is against the deal, which he described as “capitulation”.

However, he did not call for a boycott of the forthcoming referendum on the new name, which expected to take place in September or October.

For the deal to be put into full effect, Macedonian citizens must support it at the plebiscite, after which the country would alter its constitution and adopt the agreed new compromise name, the Republic of North Macedonia.

Tomche Makedonche 06-19-2018 09:25 PM

Anyone looking towards DPNE to save them needs to be lobotomised.

They have no intention of actually doing anything of substance to prevent this agreement going ahead. The only interest they have is to promote the perception that they are against it. Nothing more than that.

People have to understand that:

DPNE is not your saviour

SDS is not your saviour

They are the corruptive cancers which seek to keep you imprisoned mentally, physically and financially in order to steal your wealth for themselves and have you sell your soul to the lowest bidder.

So long as either of these two parties continue to hold power, your lives will never change or prosper. if you want a better life for yourself and your children, the only option the people have is to take matters into their own hands and create it for themselves.

The real decision the people have to make is simply whether they want more of the same (SDS or DPNE) or something better. Anything SDS or DPNE bring with them or try to sell to you (i.e. EU or NATO member) is primarily in the interests of benefiting themselves and strengthening their current elitist positions of wealth and dominance over your society, it is not in the interests of you, the people, no matter what breadcrumbs they may throw at you.

Again the people have to decide whether it is more of the same or something better, and if it is the latter then they have to stand up together and take it with their own two hands, because no one else is going to give it to you.


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