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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Phoenix 03-24-2010 07:19 AM

[QUOTE=julie;44136]Phoenix, I agree with the statement you are inferring, no one person should have autonomous power in a democratic organisation especially when it relates to identity, that then becomes a dictatorship. A democracy is one where the people vote for the party, the president or premier is one that is the voice of the people, as an elected representative in government.[/QUOTE]

Julie, I think it goes beyond the tangible functions of elected officials...identity is in the intangible realm of self consciousness, its not a quantifiable commodity that can be 'traded' on behalf of others in a commercial transaction which seems is essentially the process that we're following through this negotiation fiasco...

Vangelovski 03-24-2010 07:22 AM

[quote=Mastika;44134]Actually he does have the authority to do this as the head of the government. Could you imagine the media furor if the dialogue of EVERY discussion were to be heard? Not everything should be on the record, nor will it ever be. Any ACTUALITIES of course will released through the media, however discussion, dialogue and other mind-numbing niceties shouldn't be released because in the general scheme of things they are irrelevant. It is what actually happens that is the main thing. There is accountability, in the form of the democratic nature of Macedonia's political and judicial systems.

Does anybody here take this matter as serious, as say, Obama's private discussions with Kevin Rudd of the Canadian PM, for example? After all it is just diplomatic ramble, and only what eventuates as a result of it should be released.[/quote]

Mastika,

Firstly, Gruevski does not have the authority to negotiate our name. Secondly, I'm not interested in his private conversations with his boyfriends, I'm interested in his position or "red line" on the name.

Mastika 03-24-2010 07:29 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;44139]Mastika,

Firstly, Gruevski does not have the authority to negotiate our name. Secondly, I'm not interested in his private conversations with his boyfriends, I'm interested in his position or "red line" on the name.[/QUOTE]

As the democratically elected representative of the Republic of Macedonia, yes he has the authority to enter these negotiations the same way that he would enter trade, military or other diplomatic negotiations on behalf of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, regardless whether or not they are about the name. He does not however have the authority to DECIDE on the name, that is up to the citizens of Macedonia to decide upon. He is there to try and get the best deal for his side to take back to his own people.

As for your second point, I am mistaken, i thought that you were alluding to the actual nature of discussions during the negotiations. I agree, explaining his so-called "red-line" would be a good thing, however it is his own prerogative to do so.

Vangelovski 03-24-2010 07:32 AM

[quote=Mastika;44141]As the democratically elected representative of the Republic of Macedonia, yes he has the authority to enter these negotiations the same way that he would enter trade, military or other diplomatic negotiations on behalf of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, regardless whether or not they are about the name. He does not however have the authority to DECIDE on the name, that is up to the citizens of Macedonia to decide upon. He is there to try and get the best deal for his side to take back to his own people.

As for your second point, I am mistaken, i thought that you were alluding to the actual nature of discussions during the negotiations. I agree, explaining his so-called "red-line" would be a good thing, however it is his own prerogative to do so.[/quote]

Mastika,

It sounds like you attended the same politics 101 classes as Buktop. Gruevski has absolutely no authority (constitutional or otherwise) to negotiate the sovereignty of the Macedonian people.

julie 03-24-2010 07:36 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;44143]Mastika,

It sounds like you attended the same politics 101 classes as Buktop. Gruevski has absolutely no authority (constitutional or otherwise) to negotiate the sovereignty of the Macedonian people.[/QUOTE]

Thank BOGA for that, been waiting on eggshells for something to happen, he would not want to be seen as the traitor that finished off the Macedonians , that would be the icing on the cake for cultural and ethnic genocide.

Mastika 03-24-2010 07:43 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;44143]Mastika,

It sounds like you attended the same politics 101 classes as Buktop. Gruevski has absolutely no authority (constitutional or otherwise) to negotiate the sovereignty of the Macedonian people.[/QUOTE]

Gruevski is not negotiating the "the sovereignty of the Macedonian people", rather he is 'negotiating' the name of the Republic of Macedonia on behalf of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia. The fact that he was elected by the majority of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, also shows that he does have some "otherwise" authority, be it social and/or political, or at least that is how it is supposed to work in a free democracy.

Vangelovski 03-24-2010 07:52 AM

Mastika,

It is our sovereign decision to name ourselves - that means we alone decide what the name of our state will be. Once you negotiate something that lies within our sovereign domain, you are effectively negotiating our sovereingty.

Election by a majority does not give him the authority to do whatever he pleases - rather in a republic (which Macedonia claims to be) he can only do what he has been specifically authorised to do.

This has been discussed over and over again on this forum - please do a search and read up on it.

Prolet 03-24-2010 08:13 AM

Branko Crvenkovski didnt think twice about changing our name to FYROM, he said if he comes to power he will change our name right away with no referendum or anything.

Gruevski can change our name if he wants to and he can do it legally aswell, he's had the chance on more the one occasion to do so and he hasnt done it. Why go into these scare mongering tactics for?

aleksandrov 03-24-2010 08:33 AM

[QUOTE=Mastika;43899]The question was has he accepted a name change, of course he hasn't. ...[/QUOTE]

The acceptance of the Interim Accord, which accepts the objectionability of the name Repubic of Macedonia and requires negotiations for a new name (at least for 'international' use), in itself amounts to accepting a name change. The only thing left to decide is a mutually acceptable (between Greece and FYROM) new name.

aleksandrov 03-24-2010 08:42 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;43855]... Do either of you guys have anything to corroborate the suggestion that Gruevski was ready to accept Macedonia (Skopje) at Bucharest, and for what purpose (bilateral, international, etc)?[/QUOTE]

The fact that the Government went into Bucharest ready to adopt a name with a geographic qualifier for use within NATO (international organizations), and in fact put MPs on notice of the possibility of an urgent session of Parliament to ratify the change if NATO agreed to admit us under it, has been extensively documented in debates on Maknews. I just don't have the time to go over all of that again here, especially since I don't see what it will change. The Government's preparedness to change the name at least for use within international organizations is evidenced by its recognition of the Interim Accord (which already gives us an imposed name for use in international organizations, which is to be replaced by something else through negotiation with Greece) and participation in the negotiations.


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