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-   -   Turkey & China: alternative for Macedonia? (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4411)

Bratot 10-01-2010 01:27 AM

Turkey & China: alternative for Macedonia?
 
Turkish and Chinese militaries recently conducted a joint aerial exercise in central Anatolia, [B]the first such exercise involving the air forces of NATO member Turkey and China.[/B]

The joint exercise was part of Turkey’s Anatolian Eagle maneuvers, which have so far been carried out jointly with US, other NATO countries and Israel. They took place sometime this month in the central Anatolian province of Konya, where Anatolian Eagle maneuvers traditionally take place.[B] [U]Turkish [/U]F-16s and[U] Chinese [/U]SU-27s and Russian-made MIG-29s took part in the joint exercise, staging a mock dogfight in central Anatolian airspace.[/B] The exercise comes ahead of a planned visit by Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao to Turkey next month,[B] which officials say will boost relations to a new level. [/B]The two sides are expected to sign several agreements on economic and cultural cooperation during the Chinese prime minister’s visit.

Turkey has recently modified its security policy, removing neighbors from a list of countries considered as threats to national security.

[url]http://www.trdefence.com/2010/09/30/turkey-china-conduct-joint-air-maneuvers/[/url]

Thursday, September 30, 2010
ISTANBUL - Daily News with wires

[B]The Turkish and Chinese air forces [COLOR="Red"]secretly participated [/COLOR]in a military drill in Konya as part of the “Anatolian Eagle” war games, prompting a reaction from Washington[/B], daily Taraf reported Thursday.

Taraf based its report on Turkish and Western military sources, who confirmed that the military drills took place but did not state the exact dates of the games or what kind of aircraft were involved.

[B]Washington has requested information on the matter from Turkey, the report added.[/B]

Last year, Ankara excluded Israel from the war games, reportedly because of political tension that arose with Tel Aviv after the Israeli-led war in Gaza in January 2009.

The Turkish government decided to freeze all military exercises with Israel in response to the killing by Israeli commandos of nine people on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in May. Last year, Ankara excluded Tel Aviv from the same exercise, which prompted fellow NATO members the United States and Italy to withdraw from the drills. Turkey had to conduct the exercise on a national instead of an international level.

Since the early 2000s, Turkey, a NATO member, has conducted war games in the central Anatolian province of Konya with other members of the alliance or non-member friendly nations. [B]But this year was the first time a military drill was conducted with China.[/B]

[COLOR="Blue"][B]The U.S. administration reportedly contacted the Turkish foreign and defense ministries and asked why the drill was conducted and what kind of maneuvers were practiced. [/B][/COLOR]



Going before:

25 March 2009,

[B]Turkey, China to raise military cooperation [/B]
Turkish Military Academies Commander Gen. Hasan Aksay who is in China, said Turkey and China should consider conducting joint military exercises: [B]"Our talks should not remain limited to educational activities. We should think about joint military exercises."[/B]

In addition, China's Deputy Chief of General Staff Gen. Ge Zhenfeng said they expect to receive more military students from Turkey; since 1985, China has received 18 military delegations consisting of 200 people from Turkey. Turkey received 14 Chinese military delegations with more than 330 representatives in the same period, officials said.
Zhenfeng also said that he admires the Turkish military, "With its educational achievements and its combat capabilities, the Turkish military has made a deep impression on my mind," and added the Turkish military was exceptionally "disciplined." He also expressed his country's gratitude for Turkey's "one China" policy.

Aksay is expected to visit Shanghai today and leave China tomorrow.

[url]http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=170574[/url]


[B]China And Turkey Increase Their Military Cooperation.

What Is Behind It?[/B]

Martin McCauley writes: Last month, General Hasan Aksay, commander of the Turkish military academies, paid a visit to China.This was not the first visit of a high ranking Turkish military official. There have been 18 delegations since 1985 and 14 Chinese military visits to Turkey. General Aksay was not senior enough to launch any new initiative. However, some observers think there was to his trip than meets the eye. Military collaboration has been steadily increasing during the last 15 years.

Turkey was a member of the UN force during the Korean War (1950-53). Fighting was ferocious and over 25,000 Turks saw service there. Casualties were high: over 700 men were killed and over 2,100 wounded. As a result of the conflict Turkey became a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation in October 1951 while the war was still going on.

The Korean conflict has left its mark to this day. China is still less favourably portrayed than other countries in East Asia. Diplomatic relations were only established in the early 1970s and military contact began a decade later.

[U]During the first half of the 1990s, the United States criticised Turkey for using US weapons in its struggle with Kurdish separatists. Arms embargos followed[/U]. [B]The result was that Turkey turned to China, among others, for arms[/B]. Ankara signed its first deal in 1997 for the supply of rockets. Turkey then began to produce rockets based on Chinese designs under licence. Then surface to surface missiles were manufactured.

One estimate is that purchases of Chinese arms between 1998 and 2007 only amounted to about 1 per cent of Turkey’s total arms purchases.

Beijing is keen that Ankara participates in the war against terrorism. The primary target are the Uyghurs who are Muslim and want greater autonomy in Xinjiang province. As a Turkic people they are to be found also in Turkey as are some of the leaders of the Xinjiang movement. Demonstrations and violence against Chinese personnel in Turkey eventually led to the signing of a Sino-Turkish agreement on military cooperation in February 2000. [U]This included mutual opposition to separatist movements (Uyghurs in China and Kurds in Turkey).[/U]

One of the goals of Chinese military intelligence in Turkey is to penetrate Uyghur organisations with moles and sleepers. Beijing has had some success as there is often conflict among Uyghurs. These organisations are aware that there are collaborators within their ranks and attempts to purge them have led to uproar.

Chinese foreign intelligence also monitors the activities of Falung Gong, a religious movement which Beijing has perceived as a threat since the late 1990s.

China is also concerned about the re-emergence of Pan-Turkism. Turkic peoples stretch from Sakha-Yakutia, in Siberia, to Tatarstan and Bashkortostan in the Urals to Central Asia, Azerbaijan (there are also Azeris in northern Iran) to Turkey. The Uyghurs, Kazakhs and other ethnic groups in Xinjiang province are also Turkic. All Turkic groups are Muslim and predominantly Sunni.

[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"][B]Ironically some Turkish politicians and military officers regard China as an alternative model to the United States and the European Union.[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE] The ‘Eurasian’ faction in the military is right wing and anti-Islamist. The present Turkish government has forced some of them to retire.

[B]During General Aksay’s visit to China it was agreed to increase military cooperation.[/B] Joint military exercises and training are envisaged as are joint military production projects. The Chinese and Turks have certainly a lot to discuss. [B]Ankara regards China as a rising military power. Regarding military matters,[COLOR="Blue"] Turkey will soon have a Chinese option as well as an American[/COLOR].[/B]
[url]http://www.stirringtroubleinternationally.com/2009/04/23/china-and-turkey-increase-their-military-cooperation-what-is-behind-it/[/url]


What do you think of it, don't you agree that Macedonia should follow the example of Turkey in relation to China and look as alternative for NATO?

What would Macedonia gain or lose if we change our "national priority" of being part of NATO but instead alliance with Turkey, China and probably Russia?

I could include in also strong ties with India, Japan, Brazil, Poland, Ukraine, Belorussia, Czech, Slovakia, Croatia, Israel etc.

Bill77 10-01-2010 04:00 AM

I feel we should look elsewhere. Especially Militarily.
You watch the european (EU) and US scum take notice of what we want afterwards. Nothing like snubbing someone with pride such as US and let them eat shit.

So i say yes to alliance with China, Turkey, Russia and why not, throw Iran in for a shit stir.

julie 10-01-2010 08:09 AM

Macedonia has absolutely nothing to lose with forming an alliance with China, Turkey and Russia, as Bill points out, it will erode US "hold" over RoM, and will give Macedonia more autonomy, and security with financial investments as well. And US will be shitting some big bricks with an alliance with Chine especially. They will want to be Macedonia's new best friend then

fyrOM 10-01-2010 08:19 AM

A touch of Tito…spit spit…playing the usa against the soviets. When you are stuck in the middle sometimes all you have got left is to play the middle game. Just remember your history then remember neither is your best friend;).

julie 10-01-2010 08:29 AM

US are the antiChrist when it comes to the sovereignty of Macedonia. If we are to "remember" history, then are you also talking of Ottomon Rule? Because I would rather have a strong alliance with Turkey, the actions of the US can speak for themselves when it comes to Macedonia the last 20 years. China will be a force to be reckoned with , and US is heavily in debt to China. Money talks. And when the money gets asked for and Macedonia has alliance with China? US can jump. Through hoops. Big ones. They shove their noses where it doesnt belong, have destabilised the region and caused so much fracas they deserve what they will have coming to them

fyrOM 10-01-2010 09:02 AM

[B]Julie[/B] Well I was referring to the soviets aka Russians vs. usa. Turkey is a different situation. They know Macedonia and Turkey can get along well with each other:21: and both face the usa as a frenemmy.

China wants in on the eu market via a friendly non western Europe country that they can get along with and Macedonia fits that picture. The Chinese have already said if RoM gets in the eu they will build a computer manufacturing plant there. The Chinese want to do good business and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing good business but ofcourse business goes good with a friendly country with a capable…at least the new generation are supposed to be…and not too expensive workforce:37:.

julie 10-01-2010 09:21 AM

ah, I misinterpreted OM. The Russkies!
actually its quite a potently wonderful little combination:)

fyrOM 10-02-2010 01:12 PM

Macedonia doesn’t have a problem being friends with china anyway but it is also nice if you can do good business with your friends. Interest with china is and should be on Macedonia’s priority list.

The influence of usa on Macedonia is questionable in a number of key areas. I think the usa tries to shore up support for themselves but very much on their terms which often come across as disrespectful and if someone disrespects you it puts their motivations towards you into question. Could it be the usa are going mad realising their place in the world is slipping.

[B]Analyst: US is Practically Owned by China[/B]

[url]http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/16566/53/[/url]

Thursday, 30 September 2010
The US supremacy as the top world economy will end sooner than many people believe, so gold is a better investment than the dollar despite it hitting a new record, Tom Winnifrith, CEO at financial services firm Rivington Street Holdings, told media Monday.

Gold hit a new record high Monday and silver rose to another 30-year peak as investors were worried about the dollar weakening further after the Federal Reserve hinted at more quantitative easing last week.

The US trade deficit and debt continue to grow and the authorities are reluctant to address the problem, preferring to print money, Winnifrith said.

[B]"America is practically owned by China," he said.[/B]

He reminded of the fact that in 1900, sterling was the world's reserve currency but by 1948, that was no longer the case as the British Empire collapsed.

"America is doing what Britain did," Winnifrith said. "America spends much more than it can afford and it's not addressing the issue."

[B]In 1832, China and India were the world's two largest economies and by 2032, they will regain that status, he predicted.[/B]

"The 200 years when Britain and the US were the top two economies were an aberration and that will change," Winnifrith said.

"The decline of empires has happened much faster than folks think. I believe that gold will be a far better bet in 20 years than the dollar," he added.

Bratot 10-07-2010 01:07 AM

[QUOTE]Турција планира да го лансира својот прв сателит за собирање на разузнавачки информации во 2012. година, изјави турскиот премиер Реџеп Таип Ердоган[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=128320"]source[/URL]

[B]Turkey plans to launch its first satellite for intelligence gathering in 2012, said Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.[/B]

TURKISH AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES
[url]http://www.tai.com.tr/taimain.aspx[/url]

useful links:
[url]http://www.turksat.com.tr/content/view/453/199/[/url]

[url]http://www.aselsan.com.tr/default.asp?lang=en[/url]

[url]http://www.roketsan.com.tr/index_eng.php[/url]

[url]http://www.tubitak.gov.tr/en/ot/10/;jsessionid=C731D290183AE43DE16292EF00D6E622[/url]



[B]With the production of "Anka" after the U.S. and Israel, Turkey became the third country in the world which produces unmanned aircraft[/B].

[url]http://www.trtmacedonian.com/trtworld/mk/newsDetail.aspx?HaberKodu=d43c398c-dc8e-4335-ab4b-6b770a63bdc6&title=%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BE%D1%82%20%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%20%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BD%20%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%20%22%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0%22[/url]

Prolet 10-07-2010 01:16 AM

This is a good analysis by Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan

Erdogan: Greece's Imaginary Enemies Cost them their country

Wednesday, 06 October 2010

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan yesterday criticized Greece’s out of control spending on defense, arguing that this primarily contributed to the country’s debt crisis, and said that Turkey should avoid the Greek example.

“For years, they spent whatever money they had and didn't have on weapons. But to protect themselves against whom? And how did this benefit them?” Erdogan told an audience at the Piri Reis Maritime University in Istanbul.

“When you spend all that money, you mortgage your future. This was the heavy price our neighbor paid for creating imaginary enemies,” Erdogan said. “We must not make the same mistake,” added the premier who is to visit Athens on October 22 for a summit on sustainable development.

[url]http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/16602/46/[/url]

Onur 10-07-2010 12:33 PM

[QUOTE]With the production of "Anka" after the U.S. and Israel, Turkey became the third country in the world which produces unmanned aircraft.[/QUOTE]

Actually it`second in the world cuz US and Israeli engineers did first one together but Turkey did it without getting any help from them. Already, since Gaza flotilla incident, Turkey halted all joint military operations with Israel.

It`s the first fruit of our campaign called "Return to your homeland" by the Scientific and Technological Research Council of Turkey. There was 100s of Turkish scientists working in NASA and several other institutions in USA. They were immigrated to USA at 1990s but they are returning to Turkey. For example only last month, about 60 Turkish scientists and scholars returned to Turkey from USA and France to work in our own institutions.





[QUOTE=Prolet;73613]This is a good analysis by Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan

Erdogan: Greece's Imaginary Enemies Cost them their country
[/QUOTE]

Germans and French was giving some amount of free money to Greece and then, they were getting their money back from them by selling military equipments. With this way, they were rising Greece`s debt to them by securing it`s vassal position in the future and contributing the development of their own military engineering and manufacturing companies at the same time. To be able to realize this, they needed to create a Turkish bugaboo upon Greek people. This was also profitable for Greek politicians(already there aren't many of them) cuz Turkish bugaboo also makes Papandreu and/or Karamanlis to get more votes in the elections.

This was some kind of downward spiral for them. It was bad for regular Greek people but VERY GOOD for EU and Greek politicians.

George S. 10-07-2010 01:08 PM

Greece is spending all that money on defence against nobody except it's paranoia.All that money has been wasted not only on defence but on domestic matters.To say it's stupid is an understatement as these morons squandered 200 billion euros !

Onur 10-07-2010 03:35 PM

It seems that Israeli people are worried about our cooperation with China. An article from Haaretz, Israeli media;


[QUOTE][COLOR="Red"][B]Growing ties between Turkey, China, Iran worry Israel and U.S[/B][/COLOR]
[B]
Turkey held military drill with China, after canceling with Israel; cooperation also reflected in weapons deals, with Iran buying from China mainly missile technology.[/B]

The United States and Israel are watching with concern the growing military cooperation among Turkey, China and Iran, especially following a joint Turkish-Chinese air-force exercise last week.

Until two years ago Israel was Turkey's main partner for air combat training.

In 2001 the Turkish air force inaugurated a tactical air warfare center in Konya with Israel and the United States.

Until 2008 the Israel Air Force was a frequent guest in Turkey's sky and a regular participant in the country's big annual exercise, Anatolian Eagle.

In the wake of Operation Cast Lead and the subsequent deterioration of bilateral relations Turkey last year revoked Israel's participation in the maneuvers. The United States decided not to take part in the exercise this year because of that decision. A number of other NATO members followed suit.

Turkey replaced the Israel Air Force with its Chinese counterpart. China sent Sukhoi SU-27 fighter aircraft and pilots to train with Turkey's F-16 fighters. In the past these exercises were held in relatively openness, but last week they were held covertly, with only a brief report appearing in the Turkish media after the exercise.

The West has been watching the changes in the Chinese army's structure, and especially the long-range naval and aerial exercises that indicate Beijing's intention to acquire the ability to conduct warfare far from China's borders.

The Chinese are also aggressively pursuing cyber warfare capabilities, employing some 60,000 hackers at it, according to foreign intelligence reports.

The developing ties among Turkey, Iran and China are also reflected in weapons deals, with Iran buying from China mainly missile technology.

The C-802 antiship missile fired by Hezbollah in the Second Lebanon War at the Israel Navy's Hanit missile boat was manufactured in Iran with Chinese technology.

China has also developed a surface-to-surface rocket-launching system together with Turkey. China's Prime Minister Wen Jiabao is due to visit Ankara this month and to sign several bilateral cooperation agreements.

Turkey and China are also involved in projects to build oil pipelines from Iran.

Another reason for the close relations between the two states is that China, as a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, has been in the forefront of opposition to imposing harsher sanctions on Iran in connection to the Islamic state's nuclear program.


* Published 07.10.2010

[url]http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/growing-ties-between-turkey-china-iran-worry-israel-and-u-s-1.317583[/url][/QUOTE]



Actually, current situation between Israel and Turkey saddens me cuz we never had any problem with them throughout history. Even during the last years of Ottoman Empire and first years of new Turkey they were fully supporting us. This basically makes them the only supportive minority among us during our dark times. Already ~10% of current Israel citizens are the Jews who gone from Turkey and most of them speaks Turkish. First two Israeli PMs in 1950s was ex-Turkish Jews too. We always fully cooperated with them in developing military technology, Jewish and Turkish engineers was always working together here.

But it looks like that current dark clouds between us wont disappear unless both ruling parties in Israel and Turkey changes.

Onur 10-08-2010 05:20 AM

[FONT="Verdana"]Chinese premier is in Turkey atm and today, both PMs announced that both Turkey and China will abandon using US dollars currency in bilateral relations between them and they gonna use Turkish lira and Chinese yuan from now on. Thats quite interesting news!

Also, they agreed on construction of a railway for super fast trains between China and Turkey, passing by Turkic states and Iran on the road to revive the ancient trade route between east and west called "Silk road".





[QUOTE][COLOR="Red"][B]Turkey, China to use lira/yuan for bilateral trade[/B][/COLOR]

Turkey and China will use their currencies, the lira and the yuan, in bilateral relations Turkey's Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said on Friday after holding talks with Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao.

Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said "In all of our relations, we have agreed to use the lira and yuan," Erdogan told reporters.

Oct 8 (Reuters)

[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSIST00727220101008[/url][/QUOTE]


[QUOTE][COLOR="Red"][B]Turkey targets $50 bln China trade in next 5 years[/B][/COLOR]

Turkey aims to raise trade with China to $50 billion from a current $17 billion over the next five years, Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said on Friday at a joint news conference with visiting Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao.

Erdogan also said energy cooperation on nuclear power will form part of the burgeoning trade with China. He said the two countries had agreed to use their lira and yuan currencies for bilateral trade.

Oct 8 (Reuters)

[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSIST00727120101008[/url][/QUOTE]





But there was a quite big protestations in both Istanbul and Ankara against Chinese delegation because of the Chinese oppression to Uyghur Turkic community in China.[/FONT]

Bratot 10-08-2010 05:32 AM

What could I add to this, we could only benefit from the both countries.

fyrOM 10-08-2010 06:58 AM

The biggest looser in this sounds like the usa and the usa dollar. One big reason why the usa dollar is strong and hence affords the usa a better lifestyle is that every time someone wants to buy something from another country they first have to buy usa dollars although the Euro has cut into this. But if you eliminate both currencies from the trade as Turkey and China are planning to do it could influence all the countries in between. Less demand foe the usa dollar will see it getting weaker. A very good strategic move by both countries:sorcerer:.

Prolet 10-08-2010 09:43 PM

Turkish Delegation from the council of Europe supports Macedonia on our name

[url]http://kanal5.com.mk/default.aspx?mId=37&egId=13&eventId=65746[/url]

fyrOM 10-09-2010 03:02 PM

[QUOTE=Onur;73661]It seems that Israeli people are worried about our cooperation with China. An article from Haaretz, Israeli media;

Actually, current situation between Israel and Turkey saddens me cuz we never had any problem with them throughout history. Even during the last years of Ottoman Empire and first years of new Turkey they were fully supporting us. [/QUOTE]

[I][B]Onur[/B] how things change…a very strange development between Israel and Greece.[/I]

[B]Military exercise of Greek and Israeli air force in the Peloponnese[/B]

[url]http://www.idividi.com.mk/vesti/balkan/631664/index.html[/url]

Athens, October 8, 2010 (Reuters) - Greek-Israeli voenovozduhoplovna exercise will be held from 11 to 14 October in the western Peloponnese and in the airspace over the island of Crete.

[B]The exercise[/B] is part of Minoas 2010 "that began in May in Crete, [B]but was interrupted by the attack on izraleskite commandos[/B] on May 31 for humanitarian konvoz Gaza Strip. The attack killed nine Turkish activists, and the ship there were Greek activists.

In exercise of the Greek side will feature eight helicopters - three Black Hawk "UH-60 and three" Apache. "

[I]Back when the humanitarian ships for Gaza were attacked I said something strange is happening in Turkey for the government to allow these ships to leave Turkish ports. It looked like then that the government is under pressure from somewhere to look eastwards probably by the same forces who want to change Turkey not to be a secular state. The fact the exercises between Israel and Greece were planed for back then means the climate had changed much earlier just not shown out in the public yet.[/I]

fyrOM 10-09-2010 03:17 PM

[I]Couple this post with post016 and you can start seeing a really dark picture for the usa dollar. Dark pictures will make the usa nervous but can they dare anything against China.[/I]

[B]World financiers warn of possible "currency war" [/B]

[url]http://www.idividi.com.mk/Biznis/SvetBiznis/631515/index.html[/url]

Washington, October 7, 2010 (Reuters) - The first global financiers warn that tensions between the countries about the value of their currencies to a greater risk on the fragile global economy.

On the eve of a meeting of IMF and World Bank in Washington from 8 to 10 October, leaders of both institutions said that the conflict between China and the U.S. over the value of the Chinese yuan could become a serious economic problem.

World Bank President Robert Zoellick said that tensions over currency could jeopardize investor confidence at a time when the world turns to the private sector in the hope that it will accelerate economic growth, transferred agencies.

Fears of a possible international "currency war" contributed to weaken the dollar today a new eight-month minimum against the euro:001_tt2:.

Onur 10-09-2010 05:16 PM

[QUOTE=OziMak;73835][I][B]Onur[/B] how things change…a very strange development between Israel and Greece.[/I][/QUOTE]

It`s just you know Israel is a paranoid state and they have a reason for that cuz they are surrounded with enemies all around them. Military training is so important for them. Especially long distance flights for their pilots and it`s impossible to do that in tiny Israeli state. They were doing their pilot training in Turkey`s airfield for decades but they cant since 2008 as the haaretz article states above. So, Israel rushed to the Greece as a last option to be able to continue their army`s training program and Greeks accepted them even tough Greece and Israel never had close relationship b4. Probably Greeks are doing this to gain some kind of advantage from Turkish-Israeli tension, dunno.




[QUOTE]
[I]Back when the humanitarian ships for Gaza were attacked I said something strange is happening in Turkey for the government to allow these ships to leave Turkish ports. It looked like then that the government is under pressure from somewhere to look eastwards probably by the same forces who want to change Turkey not to be a secular state. The fact the exercises between Israel and Greece were planed for back then means the climate had changed much earlier just not shown out in the public yet.[/I][/QUOTE]

Yes, it was so strange and very suspicious. Millions of people in Turkey still wondering how and why Erdogan`s government allowed them to set sail. It was obvious that Israel was always very paranoid on these issues but i believe they expected some kind of reaction from Israel but no one probably expected them to kill people on international waters.

There are dozens of different rumors about how and why Israel-Turkey relations got worse but we don't know which one is the truth yet. I am sure about one thing tough; Some international lobby/state/group wants Turkish-Israeli relations to get worse.

Prolet 10-10-2010 12:33 AM

Onur, How do you see this Turkish Government going in the next election in 2011? Some say that Turkish-Israeli relations wont go too far if they stay in government.

Abdullah Gul comes from the same party i think.

Onur 10-10-2010 03:47 AM

[QUOTE=Prolet;73886]Onur, How do you see this Turkish Government going in the next election in 2011? Some say that Turkish-Israeli relations wont go too far if they stay in government.

Abdullah Gul comes from the same party i think.[/QUOTE]

In the latest polls of the last month, Erdogan`s islamist conservative party still leading the votes by 37%, second is secular leftist party with %32, 3rd one is central rightist party with %13. Erdogan`s party had 46% of all the votes in 2007 elections, so his support dropped by %10.

So currently, it looks like there Erdogan wont get enough votes to be the sole ruling party and secular leftist and central rightist party can form a coalition for the government. Erdogan`s only chance is to get enough votes to be the sole power cuz neither of two other major parties considers forming a coalition with him. Thats why he is trying to hang in so hard and most probably using the relations with Israel to get more support inside Turkey.

It is true that nothing will change between Israel and Turkey as long as Erdogan stays in power here and far rightist Netenyahu government stays in power at Israel.

And yes, Erdogan selected his best buddy Abdullah Gul with his majority in the parliament. There was a lot of tensions when he was first elected cuz other parties was saying that he and his wife with headscarf shouldn't represent Turkey internationally.


Erdogan is just trying to use his power to change Turkey`s strictly secular traditions. Actually, if i try to be unbiased as much as possible, he is kinda right that we have one of the most strict secular laws in the world. Think about that; Relatively the most secular state of the Europe, France is trying to ban burqa there, while let alone burqa, even headscarf is abandoned in Turkey(all schools incl. universities and all other public buildings) for 75 years. Burqa is out of question is Turkey, it`s something unthinkable here. Btw don't think that all his supporters have pro-islamist views. Some of them giving vote to his party because of Turkey`s fairly good economy. Actually, only about ~15% of his total 37% supports his pro-islamist views but rest(mainly liberals) doesn't care about headscarves or islam, they just give their support to him because of other reasons.

So, i believe it`s OK to change our strict secular laws to some degree but problem is, no one trusts him except his 37% supporters. People thinks that he might consider going further than just allowing headscarf. We also concern about extremists at middle-east cuz they can try to gain influence here because of Erdogan`s islamist proposals. Maybe few Algerian, African people with burqas wouldn't do any harm to France but in Turkey, %90 of people are muslims, so these things might have different effect in Turkey. I trust Turkish people but i don't trust Wahabi extremists cuz they have unlimited money, human resources and everything.

Soldier of Macedon 10-10-2010 04:09 AM

The issues that Turks have with Wahabists isn't something new, even the Ottomans found alot of difficulty trying to contain their extremism.

Onur 10-10-2010 09:47 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;73902]The issues that Turks have with Wahabists isn't something new, even the Ottomans found alot of difficulty trying to contain their extremism.[/QUOTE]

Yes. That movement started to be active at early years of 19th century. Ottoman forces put strong pressure upon them at first. British realized it`s importance and gave them strong support against Ottoman government(maybe wahhabism was purely a British creation at that time, dunno). Then after British support, Wahhabism quickly merged with pro-Arab nationalistic ideas and they started to be anti-Turkish in every area at late 19th century.

Now, they rule all the Arabic countries and they have a lot of money and resources unlike Ottoman era. So, they are more dangerous atm.

fyrOM 10-16-2010 02:57 PM

[B]China will give 28 million dollars to Turkey for the express railway [/B]

[url]http://www.vest.com.mk/?ItemID=3645A60C3A39FE4D91FE489395A51DF3[/url]

STANBUL, September 16 (DPA) - Turkish and Chinese companies will collaborate to build an express railway network in Turkey, which will stretch the country's western border with Greece and Bulgaria, to the eastern border, Turkish media reported yesterday.
According to Director General of Turkish State Railway Suleyman Karaman, including contracts concluded at last week's visit of Chinese Premier Wen Gjijabao, has such an agreement by which China will provide $ 28 million dollars for financing the railway network.
A government representative said that Turkey plans to build a line of 6,000 km of express trains from Edirne in western Turkey to Kars, a town near the eastern border with Armenia.
Turkey is currently building an underwater railway tunnel which passes under the Bosphorus in Istanbul, which divides Europe from Asia. Once the tunnel is completed, trains can travel from Western Europe to China.

Onur 10-16-2010 04:02 PM

[QUOTE=OziMak;74327][B]China will give 28 million dollars to Turkey for the express railway [/B]

[url]http://www.vest.com.mk/?ItemID=3645A60C3A39FE4D91FE489395A51DF3[/url]
[/QUOTE]


This project is huge and both Turkey and China are eager to complete it as quickly as possible. Especially China wants to revive the ancient silk road to open a major trade route between east and west. Turkish tv channels reported that China will give us their super fast trains with 350+ km top speed and we will build the railways from western Turkey to China.

I`m really excited about this :chinese:


So, both China and Turkey are investing for peace in whole Asia but i don't think US will be happy about this. These common agreements between Turkey and China depends on the peace in middle-east and i think both countries will do their best to prevent US military operation vs Iran.

fyrOM 10-16-2010 04:26 PM

I think Turkey feels they have waited much too long for entry I the eu and more support from the west so they are starting to turn to the east. No big loss for Turkey now that they have elsewhere to turn. The west will loose more.

Prolet 10-16-2010 06:38 PM

Onur, Do you know that there are ethnic Turks in China? This is great but with $28 million they wont be able to build 20km of railway, its going to cost billions in order to complete 6000km, it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars but that would be fantastic for Turkey if it happens.

George S. 10-16-2010 07:01 PM

the eu will find it's like a sinking ship when more & more countries are looking for alternatives.Macedonia should do the same & look at means & ways to develop itself further like turkey.

Onur 10-17-2010 05:32 AM

[QUOTE=OziMak;74335]I think Turkey feels they have waited much too long for entry I the eu and more support from the west so they are starting to turn to the east. No big loss for Turkey now that they have elsewhere to turn. The west will loose more.[/QUOTE]

We had bilateral agreements with EU since 1960s and Turkey has been an associate member of the EU and its predecessors since then. I think we did our first application for full membership in 1980s and we are a member of EU custom union since 1995.

Yes, we`ve waited for too long and it`s enough. I`ve never supported EU membership myself since i believe EU can give us nothing. EU countries are like eventide home comparing to Turkey and they need immigrants to be able to sustain their development. Turkey`s population has median age of 27 but EU countries has like 40+. We are culturally different and we don't belong to an union of western European values. Also, Turkish people never agrees to become a part of an union if don't have equal amount of rights with other ruling authorities. This is something unacceptable for Germany and France, therefore Turkey cant be a member of EU.

Turkey is not like Bulgaria or Greece. It`s difficult(maybe impossible) for both sides to be able to tolerate and digest each other in any type of union.





[QUOTE=Prolet;74341]Onur, Do you know that there are ethnic Turks in China? [/QUOTE]

Yes, there are ~12 million Uyghur Turks living in China and Chinese government is always suspicious and hostile towards them. Whenever a tension rises in East Turkestan province, Chinese army kills 100s of them, arrests few 1000 more. Turkey tried doing pressure to China to stop the suffering of Turks in there but it usually doesn't work cuz China is a communist state and they are kinda closed to the international influence.

China is keeping Uyghur people under pressure and they always regarded Turkey with suspicion cuz they fear of an ideology called Pan-Turkism. Actually this is nonsense because these ideologies never gained support more than %5-6 of Turkish people.

Pan-Turkism is an ideology formed in the last years of Ottoman Empire, which aims to unite all Turkic people like EU does for Europe but it`s something unrealistic as long as China and Russia exists. Russians was also hostile towards Turkey because of this very same reason in USSR era. Thats why Russia always supported Armenia and they used them as a buffer between Turkey and the rest of Turkic states for 100 years.




[QUOTE]This is great but with $28 million they wont be able to build 20km of railway, its going to cost billions in order to complete 6000km, it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars but that would be fantastic for Turkey if it happens.[/QUOTE]

Yes it will cost billions but Besides China and Turkey, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and Azerbaijan will be a part of this project too.

Prolet 10-17-2010 11:30 PM

[QUOTE]Yes it will cost billions but Besides China and Turkey, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and Azerbaijan will be a part of this project too.[/QUOTE]

Spolaj Ti Onur

This will be a major project, its going to cost alot of money but its going to be of great service to all the citizens of those countries.

Bratot 10-18-2010 05:49 AM

[B]И Турција и Македонија ептен зорт во ЕУ[/B]

google trans:

Macedonia awaits a date for negotiations five years, and Turkey, having received candidate status, waited six years. Macedonia and Turkey are getting invented additional terms. Macedonia - the name and Turkey - the Cyprus issue and the Armenian genocide. Can our country in the European waiting room to handle the "Turkish destiny"?

Much of the annual European Commission report that Macedonia will get a month is already known, because every year there are remarks about the inefficiency of public administration, slow dealing with corruption, the flaws in the judiciary and so on. It is certain that a date for negotiations will not be there this year. Last year, the report recommended the commencement of negotiations without a date, which is not supplied by the Greek resistance and the search for a solution to the dispute.

Hence Macedonia fifth year will be no date for commencement of negotiations. Status of candidate country heads of state and government at EU nor approved the December 17, 2005, which preceded the membership application filed on March 22, 2004.

Unlike Macedonia, Turkey to get candidate status waiting for 40 years. Turkey's desire for inclusion in the EU was highlighted back in 1959. Application for associate membership in the then European Economic Community in Turkey filed in 1959, application for membership followed in 1987, and until December 1999 European Council decides to grant candidate status, as it now has and Macedonia.

Six years after the granting of candidate status in October 2005, symbolically begun negotiations between Turkey and the EU. After only one year, Turkey is faced with their freezing. Then as the cause was referred to the Cyprus problem. Meert Ulker, an analyst at Investment Finance announced from Istanbul then said: "The negotiations are not completely frozen, but will be slow until you take a concrete step for the Cyprus issue."


Turkish STORY


In both stories, and the Macedonian and Turkish, have similarities.

While Macedonia is blocked by Greece over name dispute, to Turkey were delivered many reasons why it is wanted in the European Union.
[B] The trouble, however, Turkey is one of the four fastest growing economies in the world, is a member of NATO since 1952 and has an important geostrategic position.[/B]

But in Europe there is great fear of Turkish integration. First of all, because there was a large population of nearly 70 million inhabitants of Islamic religion. Europe, the Balkans requires changing constitutions because of ethnic and religious tolerance, Islam considers Turkey's unacceptable in their ranks. Germany and France publically loudest and say it. [B]Former Prime Minister of Turkey, Tansu Ciller, the first said: "The EU regards as a closed Christian club."[/B]

Another cause fear and the Kurdish issue. Members living in Turkey about 30 ethnic groups, including more than ten million Kurds (among 10 to 15 percent) seeking secede
ment of the country. But even this is nothing new for Europe. With these problems are confronted and Spain, France and Belgium.

The Union is visible geostrategic fear. If Turkey becomes a member of the European family, the Union will be bordered by Iraq, Iran, Syria, Georgia, Armenia and will have "unsafe" neighbors.

That the EU is afraid of Turkey and the Czechs also commented which are principle for extending the EU. The daily "Mlada fronts dnes" stated: "Turkey is too big, and too Muslim and it's on another continent"

MACEDONIA AND TURKEY Exceptions


But Macedonia, unlike Turkey, has divided opinion on the strategic goals, although all are declarative integration and resolve the name dispute. [B]Turkey on this issue, has a unique position. Her national leadership says: "No new terms and conditions will be accepted, it will not accept membership on all means.[/B]

Experiences of Macedonia and Turkey are exceptions, confirming other examples of European integration. Croatia, which were in step, is now far ahead of us - have seen the end of negotiations. Croatia has applied to join the Union in February 2003, received candidate status in June 2004 and in December the same year received a date for negotiations, which began in October 2005. The political math shows - just a year divided by the beginning of negotiations after winning candidate status.

Other countries have almost no problems when it joined the Union. Poland, for example, the negotiations began in March 1998 and completed in 2002. In 2003 he signed a contract to join the EU, and membership followed in May 2004, when it happened and the largest expansion of the Union.

[url]http://novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=10181095918&id=9&setIzdanie=22110[/url]

Onur 10-18-2010 10:05 AM

[QUOTE=Bratot;74507][B]И Турција и Македонија ептен зорт во ЕУ[/B]

[url]http://novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=10181095918&id=9&setIzdanie=22110[/url][/QUOTE]


There can be some lessons for Macedonia about Turkey`s 50+ years of journey with EU.

First of all, Cyprus issue is a major example for EU`s hypocrisy and double-standards. EU says that Cyprus issue is the biggest obstacle for Turkey`s accession since 1990s. Turkish Cyprus government did negotiations with them for two years under the supervision of UN and everything was set up and agreed for the formation of new Cyprus federation of Greeks and Turks. Greek Cypriots was also doing negotiations for EU membership at that time. When everything was agreed between Turkish and Greek side, time for the referendum on both sides has been decided but all of a sudden EU leaders announced that they can accept Greek Cyprus to the EU no matter if they agree on the resolution of Cyprus problem or not!!!

Then Greek Cypriot leaders threw everything we did together for two years to the dump and called for Greek Cypriots to vote NO and refuse the UN peace plan which they have agreed before because they thought that when they will become EU member, EU would put Turkey under pressure and they can get the full control of whole island with the help from EU leaders.

By doing this, EU both sabotaged UN peace plan and gave false hopes to Greek Cypriots like they can throw the Turks out from the island to achieve their mythical "Enosis". I am sure that EU leaders promised this to Greek Cypriots behind closed doors, since Greek Cypriot leaders are already ex-EOKA terrorists, so they remembered their old EOKA days and they probably thought that they can really throw Turks out from there.

Also, Cyprus issue wasn't considered as a problem at all while accepting Cyprus herself in to the EU but for decades, Cyprus issue is considered as major obstacle for Turkey`s membership. How can we define this situation besides a double-standard?



[QUOTE]That the EU is afraid of Turkey and the Czechs also commented which are principle for extending the EU. The daily "Mlada fronts dnes" stated: "Turkey is too big, and too Muslim and it's on another continent"[/QUOTE]

[B]Turkey is too big; [/B] When they accepted ex-USSR countries like Poland, Hungary and 6-7 other small states few years ago all at the same time, they were poorer than Turkey economically and their total population was higher than Turkey [B][COLOR="Red"]but this wasn't a problem again.[/COLOR][/B]

[B]it's on another continent;[/B] Last time i checked, Cyprus was not in the Europe geographically [B][COLOR="Red"]but this wasn't a problem again.[/COLOR][/B]

[B]too Muslim;[/B] So, do we need to ask 80 million people to convert as christians to be a member of EU? If yes, then EU is a christian only club like some says.





[QUOTE]Another cause fear and the Kurdish issue. Members living in Turkey about 30 ethnic groups, including more than ten million Kurds (among 10 to 15 percent) seeking secedement of the country. But even this is nothing new for Europe. With these problems are confronted and Spain, France and Belgium.[/QUOTE]

This is not completely true. Not all of 11 million Kurds wants to secede from Turkey. The ones who wants that are only minority among Kurds and they are mainly recent immigrants(15-20 years ago) from northern Iraq who gets orders from there. The separatists voices are loud tough, thanks to the US and EU and the Kurdish PKK.





[QUOTE]The trouble, however, Turkey is one of the four fastest growing economies in the world, is a member of NATO since 1952 and has an important geostrategic position.[/QUOTE]

This is the biggest reason of why EU wanna keep Turkey right outside their doorway but never let us go far away for free.

There is also another major point;
Turkey is the one and only member of EU customs union without being a real member of the EU since 1995. This created unfair advantage to the EU because while they can freely travel to Turkey and arrange all type of businesses here, Turkish businessmen are blocked with visa restrictions and all kind of other barriers like prejudices and so on. So, this leaded Turkey to import more than she exports to the EU since 1995 and our imports from EU countries tripled because of the regulations imposed to us by the agreement of EU customs union.

I just checked from web, Turkey exports around ~90 billion US dollars worth goods to the EU but we import around ~105 billion US dollars from the EU(these are the statistics of 2008).

If(when) Turkey officially ends her journey of EU, we will also abolish the agreement of EU customs union. Then they will loose their advantageous privileges in Turkey and eventually they will loose a market of 80 million people, worths more than 110 billion US dollars for them annually.

This is their biggest fear but we will do that soon because our journey of EU already ended in the minds of Turkish people for a long time and it will also end officially soon.




All in all, I think first and foremost lesson for Macedonia would be; even if you accept all Greek demands now to be able to start negotiations for EU, this doesn't mean that everything will be OK for the future because your negotiation process can be stalled or delayed any time they wish and you would possibly face new set of demands.

Onur 11-13-2010 03:02 PM

Turkish naval force managed to build very first 100% Turkish made high-tech warship with anti-submarine and stealth technologies. Turkey becomes 2nd country in the world after USA for using this kind of technology on warships. It uses similar technology with US made stealth aircraft. It can completely escape from all kinds of radars.

In the news, it`s been said that a single warship costs about 210 million dollars to build in Turkey but if we would buy one from US, they sell it for 650 million dollars(ofc IF they prefer to sell one to us).



[QUOTE][COLOR="Red"][B]Turkey’s First Self-Made Warship Under Trial [/B][/COLOR]

Turkey’s first self-made warship has been undergoing sea trials, the semi-official Anatolia news agency reported Friday, Xinhua News Agency reported.

Trial operation of the corvette F-511 TCG Heybeliada, the first warship completely built in Turkey and developed under the National Ship Project (MILGEM), has been going on as of Nov. 2, the agency quoted the Turkish Naval Forces as saying.

[IMG]http://www.worldbulletin.net/images_2/other/turkey-ship1.jpg[/IMG]

Construction of the corvette began in 2005 and the ship is expected to enter service in early 2011, the agency reported.

The MILGEM project aims to build a modern littoral combat warship with indigenous anti-submarine warfare and high-seas patrol capabilities, extensively using the principles of stealth technology in its design, according to the report.

13 November 2010

[url]http://www.turkishny.com/english-news/5-english-news/40125-turkeys-first-self-made-warship-under-trial[/url][/QUOTE]

Phoenix 11-13-2010 08:22 PM

I don't believe there are any alternatives for Macedonia based on one reason alone...the shiptari.

If Macedonia was to look elsewhere for alliances, whether they be military or economic, the shiptari would be used by the Americans to destabilize Macedonia...exactly the strategy that was used in 2001 by the Americans.

Prolet 11-13-2010 09:10 PM

I cant believe Australia isnt making its own war ships and even submarines, who can forget the Submarine saga where the Australian Government spent billions on faulty Submarines when they have made their own.

Onur, You should watch this, the Chinese build a 15 story building (I think its a Hotel) in just 6 days in Shanghai, its amazing.

[url]http://www.kurir.mk/magazin/zanimlivosti/7641-Kinezi-izgradija-15-katen-hotel-za-sest-dena[/url]

Prolet 11-13-2010 09:19 PM

[QUOTE=Phoenix;78025]I don't believe there are any alternatives for Macedonia based on one reason alone...the shiptari.

If Macedonia was to look elsewhere for alliances, whether they be military or economic, the shiptari would be used by the Americans to destabilize Macedonia...exactly the strategy that was used in 2001 by the Americans.[/QUOTE]

Phoenix, The Government cut our defense budget to 1.3% in an all time low but its been going down in the past 6 years. Its 93 million euros now and its basically enough to cover the wages. America is battling bankruptcy, they are heavily involved in two wars i dont think they can afford another one especially now when we are covering their backs in Afghanistan.

Phoenix 11-13-2010 11:55 PM

[QUOTE=Prolet;78031]I cant believe Australia isnt making its own war ships and even submarines, who can forget the Submarine saga where the Australian Government spent billions on faulty Submarines when they have made their own.

Onur, You should watch this, the Chinese build a 15 story building (I think its a Hotel) in just 6 days in Shanghai, its amazing.

[url]http://www.kurir.mk/magazin/zanimlivosti/7641-Kinezi-izgradija-15-katen-hotel-za-sest-dena[/url][/QUOTE]

Australia does to some degree build its own ships and subs, the designs are foreign and Australian shipyards are tasked with putting them together.

But its becoming harder to do due to the complexities of design and copyright of intellectual property. You need a strong R&D foundation.
The economies of scale today mean that its much cheaper to "buy off the shelf" than it is to build them yourself or to be in partnership with foreign nations in new arms programs...a perfect example is Australia's involvement in the Joint Strike Fighter program, that is running years behind schedule and massive cost blowouts...

Phoenix 11-14-2010 12:05 AM

[QUOTE=Prolet;78034]Phoenix, The Government cut our defense budget to 1.3% in an all time low but its been going down in the past 6 years. Its 93 million euros now and its basically enough to cover the wages. America is battling bankruptcy, they are heavily involved in two wars i dont think they can afford another one especially now when we are covering their backs in Afghanistan.[/QUOTE]

Prolet, many rich nations around the world have defence budgets of 1 - 2% of GDP...the super "rich" like the 'greeks' run their budgets at around the 5% mark, I'd imagine the USA to be higher as well...

What history has shown us is when an empire stops growing its war machine continues to drain the empire until that empire can no longer support it, that's the point that everything turns to shit...it was the Soviet Union a couple of decades ago...the 'greeks' are now in the final death throes and the USA is probably a mere decade away before they turn inward and you never hear from them again...

fyrOM 11-14-2010 12:19 AM

Prolet…you are joking…officially usa cant afford another big war…they will start as many wars big and small as they feel they need to. Do you not think the drug money going through Macedonia and Kosovo makes a deposit in the Albanians coffers for buying weapons. Sometimes in your posts you make out like you know a lot but in others you play things down it is extremely obvious you are playing dumb. Ne se praj na tri I pol. Mnogu debelo go mackas. Supporting the government is one thing but do you think nobody notices…ah we are going to have to send you back to first grade in spy school and this time don’t let your dad payoff the professors.


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