Who were the Sons of Javan?

[Constellation]

In studying ancient history, there are many stories, some would say myths and allegories, in the ancient historical record. We all know the many myths in the ancient world about the origin of the Greeks, the Macedonians, the Italians, etc. Some believe they are more than myth and some believe these stories are true. In the Bible, there is the story of creation and the subsequent branch of families that sprang from Noah and the ark.

Vinko Pribojevic, being a Christian, and a pan Slavicist, endeavored to ascertain who the ancient Slavs descended from from a biblical perspective. In his study on Pribojevic's work, Domagoj Madunic wrote:

In 1517, Maciej Miechowita published his first major work, Tractatus de duabus Sarmatiis. The work was quite popular, and Pribojevic most probably became acquainted with it during his stay in Poland. Indeed, it became his main source for description of distant north and eastern Slavic lands. Concerning the origin of the Slavs, Maciej Miechowita made an interesting choice, and suggested that the Slavs were descendants of Javan, the fourth son of Japhet, and thus relatives of the Greeks of whom Javan is traditionally held as their forefather.

Miechowita believed Slavs descended from Javan, and thus a relative of the Greeks. Miechowita's Javan hypothesis was important, as we shall see later. But Pribojevic disagreed with this hypothesis. The problem Pribojevic had was the Macedonian question. He could not reconcile his personal hypothesis that the Macedonians, being a separate people from the Greeks, descended from Javan. He read his view of history into the biblical texts. Macedonians, he believed, were a different people than the Greeks, which is to say, did not descend from Javan. In his opinion, Slavs' lineage can be traced to Thyras.

Pribojevic's final choice fell on Thyras, the youngest of the sons of Japhet. Thyras was the father of the Thracians, a long forgotten people who lived in the regions today inhabited by the Slavs. At first glance this choice does not seem as the most promising, but a closer investigation of Pribojevic's final result reveals not only Pribojevic's creativity in compiling various ancient authors, but also the fruitfulness of this choice.

Pribojevic's hypothesis that Slavs descend from Thyras appears to be problematic, at least from a biblical perspective.

Let us exam why.

And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king”.

Pribojevic, a pan Slavicst, who believes all Slavs descend from Thyras, a fact which is impossible, obviously did not understand the Old Testament very well.
So the question is:

If the Thracians spoke Slavic, but it was never called such, and the Macedonians, being of Javan descent, spoke a language different than Thracians, how can both have spoken Slavic, unless they were different versions of the same language?

[Redsun]

Constellation this is madness.

Unintelligible, are you sure these ancient Athenians you speak of were not ignorant pricks that did not respect others cultures and language.

Do you really believe that Noah existed? That he had three sons and one went to... where did you read your text because I read similar rubbish that he settled west of Macedonia.

Have you read the Jewish Encyclopedia yet?

What are you attempting to do?

The only person to travel in such a manner of which you speak would be Cadmus the Canaanite.

[Constellation]

Constellation this is madness.

Unintelligible, are you sure these ancient Athenians you speak of were not ignorant pricks that did not respect others cultures and language.

Do you really believe that Noah existed? That he had three sons and one went to... where did you read your text because I read similar rubbish that he settled west of Macedonia.

Have you read the Jewish Encyclopedia yet?

What are you attempting to do?

The only person to travel in such a manner of which you speak would be Cadmus the Canaanite.

I did not mention ancient Athenians. The point of this thread is to gain a better understanding of who the ancient Macedonians were.

[George S.]

We had a thread dealing with noah and his sons and where they went dispersed to the various countries they started.There was a map to go with it as well.If you do a google searc[B]h youll find it.Constellation for your info apparently prior to noahs flood people used to speak a common language.

[George S.]

constellation I can tell you that in the bible there is a clear distinction of Macedonia and Greece.It goes like this Paul went to Macedonia to preach the gospel and the people received him and that's how we got our Christianity.Whereas Paul went to Athens and he preached to them and they did not receive his gospel message ,they rejected him.He said to them that he marvelled that they so easily led y myths etc about the real world.This is so true that the greeks couldn't change it eventually took a lot longer to convince them about Christianity.

[Constellation]

constellation I can tell you that in the bible there is a clear distinction of Macedonia and Greece.It goes like this Paul went to Macedonia to preach the gospel and the people received him and that's how we got our Christianity.Whereas Paul went to Athens and he preached to them and they did not receive his gospel message ,they rejected him.He said to them that he marvelled that they so easily led y myths etc about the real world.This is so true that the greeks couldn't change it eventually took a lot longer to convince them about Christianity.

George, the distinction you are referring to is geographical. You are referring to Act 20.1-2:

[Constellation]

We had a thread dealing with noah and his sons and where they went dispersed to the various countries they started.There was a map to go with it as well.If you do a google searc[B]h youll find it.Constellation for your info apparently prior to noahs flood people used to speak a common language.

Yes, one language was spoken. But God confused their languages at Babel.

[George S.]

yeah con there is a name for macedonia i think it was called kittim.I couldn't find much.
Thats exactly what i found that supposedly the macedonians and greeks had a similar ancestor???kind of confusing??

[Constellation]

yeah con there is a name for macedonia i think it was called kittim.I couldn't find much.
Thats exactly what i found that supposedly the macedonians and greeks had a similar ancestor???kind of confusing??

Well, I think Kittim is Cyprus, so I do not think there is a Macedonian connection.

[George S.]

There is a distinction between macedonians and greeks.Macedonians were called KITTIM.
The sons of Japheth: Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech
and Tiras. ... Three descendants of Gomer are listed and four of Javan. ...
1. Now they were the grandchildren of Noah, in honor of whom names were imposed on the nations by those that first seized upon them. Japhet, the son of Noah, had seven sons: they inhabited so, that, beginning at the mountains Taurus and Amanus, they proceeded along Asia, as far as the river Tansis, and along Europe to Cadiz; and settling themselves on the lands which they light upon, which none had inhabited before, they called the nations by their own names. For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites. Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians. Now as to Javan and Madai, the sons of Japhet; from Madai came the Madeans, who are called Medes, by the Greeks; but from Javan, Ionia, and all the Grecians, are derived. Thobel founded the Thobelites, who are now called Iberes; and the Mosocheni were founded by Mosoch; now they are Cappadocians. There is also a mark of their ancient denomination still to be shown; for there is even now among them a city called Mazaca, which may inform those that are able to understand, that so was the entire nation once called. Thiras also called those whom he ruled over Thirasians; but the Greeks changed the name into Thracians. And so many were the countries that had the children of Japhet for their inhabitants. Of the three sons of Gomer, Aschanax founded the Aschanaxians, who are now called by the Greeks Rheginians. So did Riphath found the Ripheans, now called Paphlagonians; and Thrugramma the Thrugrammeans, who, as the Greeks resolved, were named Phrygians. Of the three sons of Javan also, the son of Japhet, Elisa gave name to the Eliseans, who were his subjects; they are now the Aeolians. Tharsus to the Tharsians, for so was Cilicia of old called; the sign of which is this, that the noblest city they have, and a metropolis also, is Tarsus, the tau being by change put for the theta. Cethimus possessed the island Cethima: it is now called Cyprus; and from that it is that all islands, and the greatest part of the sea-coasts, are named Cethim by the Hebrews: and one city there is in Cyprus that has been able to preserve its denomination; it has been called Citius by those who use the language of the Greeks, and has not, by the use of that dialect, escaped the name of Cethim. And so many nations have the children and grandchildren of Japhet possessed. Now when I have premised somewhat, which perhaps the Greeks do not know, I will return and explain what I have omitted; for such names are pronounced here after the manner of the Greeks, to please my readers; for our own country language does not so pronounce them: but the names in all cases are of one and the same ending; for the name we here pronounce Noeas, is there Noah, and in every case retains the same termination.

Ezekiel's Discourse
... wares. Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy traffickers: they traded
the persons of men and vessels of brass for thy merchandise. ...
/.../various/select masterpieces of biblical literature/vii ezekiels discourse.htm

Appendix 1 Massecheth Middoth
... on the south-east the chamber of the shew-bread; on the north-east, there the Asmoneans
deposited the stones of the altar which the King of Javan had defiled ...
/.../edersheim/sketches of jewish social life/appendix 1 massecheth middoth.htm

Demonstration v. --Of Wars.
... [774] It is the kingdom of the children of Javan, who are children of Japhet. For
the children of Javan came in against the kingdom of their brethren. ...
/.../aphrahat/aphrahat select demonstrations/demonstration v of wars.htm

Jewish Chronology Continued.
... Egyptians, and Greeks, for we must bear in mind that the father of these Gentiles
was born from this Japheth, [1072] and received the name Javan, and became ...
/.../the refutation of all heresies/chapter xxvii jewish chronology continued.htm

The Promise.
... Some few, the children of Javan, found a home in the fair isles of the Mediterranean,
but the greater part were wild horsemen in Northern Asia and Europe. ...
//christianbookshelf.org/yonge/the chosen people/lesson i the promise.htm

Hope for the Heathen
... to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off." Isaiah 66:19. "How beautiful upon
the mountains. Are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings,. ...
/.../white/the story of prophets and kings/chapter 31 hope for the.htm

[Endnotes]
... Jobab. ". JAPHETH. Gomer, Magog. Madai. Javan, Tubal. Meshech. Tiras. Ashkenaz,
Elishah, Riphath, Tarshish, Togarmah. Kittim, Dodanim. ...
//christianbookshelf.org/killen/the ancient church/endnotes.htm

The Greek Versions as Aids to Biblical Study.
... 'vy vrchvvt, Wellh.), 1 Regn. iv.21. Javan, he Hellas, Isaiah 66:19 (cf. Joel
3:6). Jehovah-nissi, Kurios kataphuge mou, Exodus 17:15. ...
/.../chapter iv the greek versions.htm

[George S.]

There is a distinction between macedonians and greeks.Macedonians were called KITTIM.
The sons of Japheth: Gomer and Magog and Madai and Javan and Tubal and Meshech
and Tiras. ... Three descendants of Gomer are listed and four of Javan. ...
1. Now they were the grandchildren of Noah, in honor of whom names were imposed on the nations by those that first seized upon them. Japhet, the son of Noah, had seven sons: they inhabited so, that, beginning at the mountains Taurus and Amanus, they proceeded along Asia, as far as the river Tansis, and along Europe to Cadiz; and settling themselves on the lands which they light upon, which none had inhabited before, they called the nations by their own names. For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites. Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians. Now as to Javan and Madai, the sons of Japhet; from Madai came the Madeans, who are called Medes, by the Greeks; but from Javan, Ionia, and all the Grecians, are derived. Thobel founded the Thobelites, who are now called Iberes; and the Mosocheni were founded by Mosoch; now they are Cappadocians. There is also a mark of their ancient denomination still to be shown; for there is even now among them a city called Mazaca, which may inform those that are able to understand, that so was the entire nation once called. Thiras also called those whom he ruled over Thirasians; but the Greeks changed the name into Thracians. And so many were the countries that had the children of Japhet for their inhabitants. Of the three sons of Gomer, Aschanax founded the Aschanaxians, who are now called by the Greeks Rheginians. So did Riphath found the Ripheans, now called Paphlagonians; and Thrugramma the Thrugrammeans, who, as the Greeks resolved, were named Phrygians. Of the three sons of Javan also, the son of Japhet, Elisa gave name to the Eliseans, who were his subjects; they are now the Aeolians. Tharsus to the Tharsians, for so was Cilicia of old called; the sign of which is this, that the noblest city they have, and a metropolis also, is Tarsus, the tau being by change put for the theta. Cethimus possessed the island Cethima: it is now called Cyprus; and from that it is that all islands, and the greatest part of the sea-coasts, are named Cethim by the Hebrews: and one city there is in Cyprus that has been able to preserve its denomination; it has been called Citius by those who use the language of the Greeks, and has not, by the use of that dialect, escaped the name of Cethim. And so many nations have the children and grandchildren of Japhet possessed. Now when I have premised somewhat, which perhaps the Greeks do not know, I will return and explain what I have omitted; for such names are pronounced here after the manner of the Greeks, to please my readers; for our own country language does not so pronounce them: but the names in all cases are of one and the same ending; for the name we here pronounce Noeas, is there Noah, and in every case retains the same termination.

Ezekiel's Discourse
... wares. Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy traffickers: they traded
the persons of men and vessels of brass for thy merchandise. ...
/.../various/select masterpieces of biblical literature/vii ezekiels discourse.htm

Appendix 1 Massecheth Middoth
... on the south-east the chamber of the shew-bread; on the north-east, there the Asmoneans
deposited the stones of the altar which the King of Javan had defiled ...
/.../edersheim/sketches of jewish social life/appendix 1 massecheth middoth.htm

Demonstration v. --Of Wars.
... [774] It is the kingdom of the children of Javan, who are children of Japhet. For
the children of Javan came in against the kingdom of their brethren. ...
/.../aphrahat/aphrahat select demonstrations/demonstration v of wars.htm

Jewish Chronology Continued.
... Egyptians, and Greeks, for we must bear in mind that the father of these Gentiles
was born from this Japheth, [1072] and received the name Javan, and became ...
/.../the refutation of all heresies/chapter xxvii jewish chronology continued.htm

The Promise.
... Some few, the children of Javan, found a home in the fair isles of the Mediterranean,
but the greater part were wild horsemen in Northern Asia and Europe. ...
//christianbookshelf.org/yonge/the chosen people/lesson i the promise.htm

Hope for the Heathen
... to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off." Isaiah 66:19. "How beautiful upon
the mountains. Are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings,. ...
/.../white/the story of prophets and kings/chapter 31 hope for the.htm

[Endnotes]
... Jobab. ". JAPHETH. Gomer, Magog. Madai. Javan, Tubal. Meshech. Tiras. Ashkenaz,
Elishah, Riphath, Tarshish, Togarmah. Kittim, Dodanim. ...
//christianbookshelf.org/killen/the ancient church/endnotes.htm

The Greek Versions as Aids to Biblical Study.
... 'vy vrchvvt, Wellh.), 1 Regn. iv.21. Javan, he Hellas, Isaiah 66:19 (cf. Joel
3:6). Jehovah-nissi, Kurios kataphuge mou, Exodus 17:15. ...
/.../chapter iv the greek versions.htm

[George S.]

Bible Search

Genesis 10:4 The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittites ...
... The descendants of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Rodanim. ... The
sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. ...
//biblehub.com/genesis/10-4.htm - 16k

1 Chronicles 1:7 The sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, the ...
... The descendants of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Rodanim. ... The
sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Rodanim. ...
//biblehub.com/1_chronicles/1-7.htm - 17k

Numbers 24:24 Ships will come from the shores of Cyprus; they will ...
... But ships shall come from Kittim and shall afflict Asshur and
Eber; and he too shall come to utter destruction ...
//biblehub.com/numbers/24-24.htm - 18k

Daniel 11:30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and ...
... For ships of Kittim shall come against him, and he shall be afraid and withdraw,
and shall turn back and be enraged and take action against the holy covenant. ...
//biblehub.com/daniel/11-30.htm - 19k

Ezekiel 27:6 Of oaks from Bashan they made your oars; of cypress ...
... Of the oaks of Bashan have they made your oars; the company of Ashurites have made
your planks of inlaid ivory, brought out of the coasts of Kittim. ...
//biblehub.com/ezekiel/27-6.htm - 17k

Isaiah 23:1 A prophecy against Tyre: Wail, you ships of Tarshish! ...
... Wail, you ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house,
no entering in: from the land of Kittim it is revealed to them. ...
//biblehub.com/isaiah/23-1.htm - 18k

Isaiah 23:12 He said, "No more of your reveling, Virgin Daughter ...
... And he said, You shall no more rejoice, O you oppressed virgin, daughter of Sidon:
arise, pass over to Kittim; there also shall you have no rest. ...
//biblehub.com/isaiah/23-12.htm - 18k

Jeremiah 2:10 Cross over to the coasts of Cyprus and look, send to ...
... "For cross to the coastlands of Kittim and see, And send to Kedar and observe
closely And see if there has been such a thing as this! ...
//biblehub.com/jeremiah/2-10.htm - 18k

[Constellation]

George, your posts do not state Kittim is Macedonia.

[George S.]

I have seen a map of kittim clearly showing Macedonia. The Maccabees calls it Macedonia.Alexander is known to be the king of javan.Or the king of kittim.
The Kittim

In Gen 10:4 and 1 Chron 1:7 the Kittim are identified as the sons of Javan, hence grandsons of Noah. Javan is thought to represent Greece and the Greeks, including Asia Minor. The name Yawan and Yawanim is translated Greece in Isa 66:19; Ezek 27:13; Dan 8:21; 10:20; Joel 3:6. The name occurs not only in the Semitic dialects, but in Sanskrit. It is found in Assyrian linguistic relics as Yavnan or Yunan, as well as on Egyptian monuments as Uoinim, Ionians, thus showing that the designation was anciently in common use throughout the Near East. Although clearly assigned to the Ionians of Asia Minor this name seems to have been also given to the Macedonians, Achaians, and Baeotians, all understood as part of the Greeks. (Note here the linguistic similarity between the well know traditional Ionians that has come down to us through the Indo-European languages, and the Yawan of the Semitic.)



Since the Kittim are the sons of Javan they would then be part of Greece. 1 Maccabees 1:1 states, Alexander, son of Philip the Macedonian, who came from the land of Kittim. The name Kittim is often understood to mean exclusively Cyprus but this is false. The Kittim are found in Isa 23:1, 12 and Daniel 11:30, where the name is translated Cyprus in most versions. However in these prophecies Kittim does not refer to Cyprus. See discussion below.

Josephus in his Antiquities 11 states:

Cethimus possessed the island Cethima: it is now called Cyprus; and from that it is that all islands, and the greatest part of the sea-coasts, are named Cethim by the Hebrews: and one city there is in Cyprus that has been able to preserve its denomination; it has been called Citius by those who use the language of the Greeks, and has not, by the use of that dialect, escaped the name of Cethim.

Note that the word Cethim should be pronounced as Kethim. English transformed the K's into C's centuries ago.

Josephus may not have had his historical facts correct. The plural termination denotes a people who migrated from Phoenicia to Cyprus and founded the town of Citium (Kitium), the modern Chitti. Cyprus was in close relations with Tyre, (Isa 23:1,12; Ezek 27:6), as can also be seen from Phoenician inscriptions still extant. We must remember that Phoenicia was Semitic, linguistically close cousin to the Hebrew people. The name Citium (Kitium) was borrowed from the Semitic Kittim. Josephus understood that the Hebrews also applied the name to sea coasts along the northern shores of the Mediterranean, not only to the Greek homelands, but to all those regions colonized by the Greeks.

In Numbers 24:23-24 Kittim has a more serious meaning. The prophet Balaam gave a pronouncement that carries implications for us today:

And he took up his parable and said, Alas, who shall live when God does this?

And ships from the coast of Kittim shall afflict Asshur and shall afflict Eber, and also he shall perish forever.

If Balaam gave his prophecy, and if it was recorded prior to the breakup of the Kingdom around 700 BC, we would expect use of the terms Asshur and Eber, terms familiar to the people of those times. The use of these names dates the prophecy.
So CON you are WRONG AGAIN!

[Constellation]

There is a distinction between macedonians and greeks.Macedonians were called KITTIM.

And then you quote this in your post:

Since the Kittim are the sons of Javan they would then be part of Greece

This would mean that Macedonia=Kittim=Greece. Care to explain this?

I have seen a map of kittim clearly showing Macedonia. The Maccabees calls it Macedonia.Alexander is known to be the king of javan.Or the king of kittim.

Yes, the book of 1 Maccabees states that Alexander came from the land of Kittim, but Kittim does not mean Macedonia, it means Cyprus. The original meaning was the island of Cyprus, but later took on a broader meaning, including Rome and Macedonia. Thus, when 1 Maccabees was written, Kittim took on a broader meaning, which included the Aegean territories, including Macedonia.