Macedonia: To Have Your State and Be It Too

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  • George S.
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 10116

    Macedonia: To Have Your State and Be It Too

    Macedonia: To Have Your State and Be It Too
    By Mario Hristovski



    When the name “Macedonia” is mentioned, it is usually accompanied by questions about where it is, or whether the famous Macadamia nut cookie originates there. While Macedonia has nothing to do with the delicious cookie, the former question presents a bit of a conundrum in the Balkans. Locked in a 20-year dispute, the Republic of Macedonia and the Hellenic Republic (Greece) have been engaged in a bitter rivalry as to who has the rightful claim to the name and heritage of Macedonia. On the surface, it seems like the type of ethnic rivalry and ultra-nationalism for which the Balkans is infamous.

    But the situation is far more complicated than that. The relationship between the Macedonia and Greece is strained at best. Tensions started with the independence of the Republic of Macedonia from Yugoslavia in 1991. The name, “Macedonia,” however, presented a problem for Greece since it has its own region in northern Greece called Macedonia. Claiming territorial aspirations and cultural appropriation, Greece enacted a trade embargo, suffocating the young republic economically. The embargo was finally lifted in 1995 with some concessions on the side of Macedonia, namely changing its flag and agreeing to use the provisional name ‘The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’ (FYROM) for all international organizations, until a more suitable name could be found. Even though the majority of countries – the United States included – have abandoned the FYROM title, Macedonia and Greece have continued to be in deadlocked negotiations ever since.

    Problems escalated further in 2008 when Greece vetoed Macedonia’s entry into NATO due to the usage of the name. Greece has also stated it would use similar measures to bar Macedonia’s entry into the European Union. Macedonia went so far as to sue Greece for its NATO veto, claiming that it violated the terms of their 1995 agreement, which allowed entry into international organizations under the provisional name. The International Court of Justice favored Macedonia’s claim, stating that Greece’s veto was, in fact, illegal. Like much of international law, Greece chose not to follow the ruling and went so far as to deny Macedonia’s invitation to the Wales NATO summit in early September of this year, citing the name dispute.

    Despite struggling economies, both countries made it an objective to display their claim on Macedonia’s history to the world. Beginning in 2010, Macedonia launched an extensive and controversial makeover of its capital, Skopje, aimed at showcasing Macedonian history with a neoclassical overtone. The most dominant addition was a 33-meter high statue – ambiguously named “Warrior on Horse” – that graces the central square of the city. Citizens of Skopje, however, were not confused; it was clearly meant to be Alexander the Great. Walking through the capital of Greek Macedonia, Thessaloniki, one can find a grandiose statue of Alexander the Great next to the sea and even see his image stamped on boxes of fruit in the market. Both countries claim Alexander the Great as part of their heritage and history. However, the name Macedonia represents more than the right to claim a king that’s been dead for 2,300 years.

    While the Balkan Peninsula is home to a myriad of conflicts, the dispute over a name proves to be especially strange. Looking at Greek geography textbooks from the period immediately before Macedonia’s independence, we can see there was no issue in naming its neighboring country simply Macedonia, rather than the convoluted name used today. Greece’s own Macedonia Airport was named Airport of Northern Greece before 1988. Only with Macedonia’s formal independence from Yugoslavia did Greece feel threatened for its own region of Macedonia and feel the need to loudly assert its Greek nature to the world. This begs the question, why does a landlocked country of 2 million people threaten the entire country of Greece? Surprisingly enough, the threat lies on Greece’s side of the border.

    Greece’s objection to the name Macedonia has little, if anything, to do with ancient history. Macedonian history spans the course of 2,500 years, so Greece’s insistence on strictly focusing on the period dominated by Greek culture and ideas, seems peculiar. While history does play a dominant role, it is modern history that is the source of conflict. Greece’s preoccupation with Macedonia is rooted in the 20th century “Macedonian Question”, The Macedonian Question, a dispute between Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia as to who could impose its national identity and language over Macedonians after the departure of the Ottomans, eventually led to the Balkan Wars. Setting ancient history aside, Greece’s first claim to Macedonia came in 1913, with the end of the Second Balkan War and the complete removal of the Ottomans from the Balkans. With the rest of Macedonia illegally divided between Bulgaria and Serbia, Greece found itself occupying over 51% of Macedonia, including the rich port capital of Thessaloniki. To solidify its claim to the land, Greece launched an intense and forceful campaign of Hellenization, which included changing villages, cities, and last names to Greek alternatives. Cities that resisted were usually razed to the ground; those were passive became completely Hellenized. The culmination of the Hellenization came in the Greek Civil War of 1946-49, in which 30,000 Macedonian children were forcibly evicted from their homes. For the remaining Macedonians, their language, along with their religion and identity have since then been denied by the Greek government.

    Today, some 800,000 Macedonians remain in the northern region of Greece. While this is in stark contrast to Greece’s outlandish claim of a 98.5% ethnic Greek population, the Macedonian population in Greece has been well documented by international organizations such as the Helsinki Monitor and European Human Rights Watch. However, much like in the past, the Macedonian minority does not officially exist. Macedonians are categorically denied every right to have their identity recognized, whether it be through schools, newspapers, or churches. Besides wanting to cover up a long-standing blemish on their history, Greece’s interest with the name Macedonia goes even further. If there is a country called the Republic of Macedonia, then by extension there must be ethnic Macedonians attached to it. This would open up the appropriately named Pandora’s Box for Greece; not only would the government have to admit to the genocide committed in the civil war, but they would also have to acknowledge the existence of their own Macedonian minority, among other minorities living in Greece, such as Albanians, Vlachs, and Jews. For a country that boasts an almost ethnically pure label, this won’t serve to unify the already struggling Greek infrastructure. Acknowledgement of the Macedonian identity would also mean that Greece would have to respond to the various property rights claims by the exiled Macedonians, many of whom are not allowed entry back into Greece.

    It is no surprise that this conflict comes from the Balkans, an area that has been historically rife with instability – Bismarck famously remarked that some “damned foolish thing in the Balkans” would cause the next great war of his lifetime. However, this conflict is interesting due to the nature of its perceived simplicity. Since the Greeks know a debate involving ancient history and symbolism would only serve to confuse the public, they have found a way to simplify their issue with Macedonia. Greece’s problem with Macedonia’s name is a skillful cover-up of its continued oppression of minorities. Between nationalist movements threatening entire countries, the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, and struggling economies, the region could once again live up to its stereotype for being a hotbed of turmoil. It is a shame that even the choice of a country’s name is what brings the Balkans back into a forefront of regional disputes. The so-called “name dispute” between two neighbors only serves to deepen the already prevalent divide between the various ethnicities. The Republic of Macedonia’s choice of name is its sovereign right to exercise, and it has the right to care for its people living outside of its borders. This right was even included in its original constitution, before it was removed for containing “territorial aspirations.” Rather than continue with the hopeless charade of the name game and trying to outdo Greece in asserting its Macedonian identity, Macedonia should simply raise the issue of the Macedonians in Greece— if Macedonia has always been purely and ethnically Greek, how can they explain the large Macedonian minorities in major cities of Greek Macedonia? Furthermore, if NATO and European Union integration is what is needed to bring stability and economic growth to the Balkans, the values of Europe seem to be misguided in that regard; NATO has no problems standing up to Putin’s agenda, yet Prime Minister Samaras’ demands are met without question. Given Macedonia’s strong geopolitical location at the crux of the Balkans, the infamous Macedonian Question could once again threaten the stability of the region.

    rs”.
    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
    GOTSE DELCEV
  • Dejan
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 592

    #2
    Good write-up
    You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

    A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

    Comment

    • Philosopher
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1003

      #3
      Originally posted by Dejan View Post
      Good write-up
      If you click on the link to the article, you will find one obnoxious Greek with the username "Greek" repeating the same old Greek lies about Macedonians and ancient Macedonia.

      Do these people have any sense of shame? I honestly do not know a more repulsive people alive (except Jews).

      And Westerners do not help. Every chance they get they use the "Slav" label to define our people.

      Comment

      • Nikolaj
        Member
        • Aug 2014
        • 389

        #4
        Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
        If you click on the link to the article, you will find one obnoxious Greek with the username "Greek" repeating the same old Greek lies about Macedonians and ancient Macedonia.

        Do these people have any sense of shame? I honestly do not know a more repulsive people alive (except Jews).

        And Westerners do not help. Every chance they get they use the "Slav" label to define our people.
        They are simply amateurs trying to convince the people on the surface who don’t know better. In any scholarly debate they’d be shunned at for their stupidity and walked straight to the exit door.

        Comment

        • Volokin
          Member
          • Apr 2014
          • 278

          #5
          Good article. I always wonder what the reaction from Greece would be if the Hellenization of the Aegean Macedonia was brought up at one of these negotiations.

          The Greeks are not in complete denial, they know what they did many years ago, and they need to cover it up, which unfortunately they have been able to so far.

          Comment

          • Momce Makedonce
            Member
            • Jul 2012
            • 562

            #6
            I agree, this is very well written. It really is a complicated issue from an outside perspective as mentioned in the article. When someone asks what the issue is between Macedonia and Greece you cant really answer it in a few sentences. It is shameful on Greece`s behalf the way they have tried so hard to cover up what they have done to Macedonia and the Macedonians in the past 100 years.
            "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task." Goce Delcev

            Comment

            • Amphipolis
              Banned
              • Aug 2014
              • 1328

              #7
              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              Greece’s own Macedonia Airport was named Airport of Northern Greece before 1988. Only with Macedonia’s formal independence from Yugoslavia did Greece feel threatened for its own region of Macedonia and feel the need to loudly assert its Greek nature to the world. This begs the question, why does a landlocked country of 2 million people threaten the entire country of Greece? Surprisingly enough, the threat lies on Greece’s side of the border.
              The “Macedonia” Airport was not called Airport of Northern Greece before 1988. I don’t remember it having a name (I don’t see why airports need a name), it was probably called Airport of Thessaloniki.
              Greece started “loudly asserting the Greek nature of Macedonia” around 1991, not because we felt threatened but for the obvious reason that this is an international issue. The message (of both sides) is sent not only to each other but mostly to the international community.

              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              Greece’s objection to the name Macedonia has little, if anything, to do with ancient history. Macedonian history spans the course of 2,500 years, so Greece’s insistence on strictly focusing on the period dominated by Greek culture and ideas, seems peculiar. While history does play a dominant role, it is modern history that is the source of conflict. Greece’s preoccupation with Macedonia is rooted in the 20th century “Macedonian Question”, The Macedonian Question, a dispute between Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia as to who could impose its national identity and language over Macedonians after the departure of the Ottomans, eventually led to the Balkan Wars.
              The Ottomans did not depart, they were thrown out by the above powers (plus Montenegro) and that was the first Balkan War.

              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              Setting ancient history aside, Greece’s first claim to Macedonia came in 1913, with the end of the Second Balkan War and the complete removal of the Ottomans from the Balkans. With the rest of Macedonia illegally divided between Bulgaria and Serbia, Greece found itself occupying over 51% of Macedonia, including the rich port capital of Thessaloniki.
              LOL, Greece certainly did not claim Macedonia in 1913 for the first time. In modern times (before 1820s) Greeks saw all former Roman Empire as their land (potentially).

              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              Cities that resisted were usually razed to the ground; those were passive became completely Hellenized.
              That’s simply wrong. No city resisted to changing its’ name or faced retaliations because of that. The author probably confuses it with events of the Balkan Wars.

              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              The culmination of the Hellenization came in the Greek Civil War of 1946-49, in which 30,000 Macedonian children were forcibly evicted from their homes. For the remaining Macedonians, their language, along with their religion and identity have since then been denied by the Greek government.
              The children were not expelled by Greece; they were taken BY the communists with the agreement of their parents (who occasionally could not say no even if they wanted). I don’t think there’s any issue about religion.

              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              Today, some 800,000 Macedonians remain in the northern region of Greece. While this is in stark contrast to Greece’s outlandish claim of a 98.5% ethnic Greek population, the Macedonian population in Greece has been well documented by international organizations such as the Helsinki Monitor and European Human Rights Watch.
              The only stark contrast I can see is the number 800,000 which is about 32% of the Macedonian population with the percentage of Rainbow Party in Macedonia (around 0,9% if I remember correctly).

              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              If there is a country called the Republic of Macedonia, then by extension there must be ethnic Macedonians attached to it.
              Not necessarily. There are no ethnic-Belgians or ethnic-Swiss people.


              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              Acknowledgement of the Macedonian identity would also mean that Greece would have to respond to the various property rights claims by the exiled Macedonians, many of whom are not allowed entry back into Greece.
              Nope, these issues are not legally connected.

              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              Since the Greeks know a debate involving ancient history and symbolism would only serve to confuse the public, they have found a way to simplify their issue with Macedonia.
              That’s not a trick. This is what we really are interested in: name, symbols, history, heritage etc. We’re not interested in the land.

              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              Rather than continue with the hopeless charade of the name game and trying to outdo Greece in asserting its Macedonian identity, Macedonia should simply raise the issue of the Macedonians in Greece— if Macedonia has always been purely and ethnically Greek, how can they explain the large Macedonian minorities in major cities of Greek Macedonia?
              ??? LOL, Which cities???

              Originally posted by George S. View Post
              Furthermore, if NATO and European Union integration is what is needed to bring stability and economic growth to the Balkans, the values of Europe seem to be misguided in that regard; NATO has no problems standing up to Putin’s agenda, yet Prime Minister Samaras’ demands are met without question.
              Greece’s demands are met because (a) Greece is a NATO member and (b) Greece is in crisis for the last 5 years so they’re a little careful with us.

              Comment

              • spitfire
                Banned
                • Aug 2014
                • 868

                #8
                Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                The “Macedonia” Airport was not called Airport of Northern Greece before 1988. I don’t remember it having a name (I don’t see why airports need a name), it was probably called Airport of Thessaloniki.
                Mikra. After the name of the area. State airport of Mikra of Thessaloniki was the full name.

                Do you remember how the old airport of athens was called? After the name of the area too. Elliniko (West and East).
                Last edited by spitfire; 11-06-2014, 01:11 PM.

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  #9
                  serious scholars etc have found that the greeks have no basis for assuming that the macedonians and greeks are the same people.You want proof go and visit those places in the aegean.You will see the amount of macedonians there are.Not the shit bullshit figures the greek govt provides.It has been proven that the macedonians were the majority before the assimilation and other policies agains't the macedonians.Today we know that there is still a sizable amount of macedonians living in the aegean area.THink about the greeks called the aegean THE OCCupied territory.So don't give me any of your bullshit bs on this forum.I will debate you all about THE GREEKNESS Of MACEDONIA .THERE IS NONE yOUR GOVT HAS FABRICATED IT.Please READ YOUR GOVTS PROPAGANDA.ALSO HOW YOU AND YOUR GOVT DENIES THE EXISTENCE OF MACEDONIANS.GREEKS WHEN COMPARED TO MACEDONIANS ARE SPOKEN OF AS NEWCOMERS TO THE BALKAN AREA.WHERE MACEDONIANS ARE NOT DESCENDED FROM GREEKS.Macedonians PREEXISTED THE GREEKS.SO stop your bs.JUST BECAUSE YOU OCCUPIED OUR LANDS DOES NOT MEAN IT WAS YOURS>DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORD ENDOPI ????
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Dejan
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 592

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                    Not necessarily. There are no ethnic-Belgians or ethnic-Swiss people.
                    We are living proof that ethnic Macedonians do exist. Do you deny this???
                    You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

                    A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

                    Comment

                    • Momce Makedonce
                      Member
                      • Jul 2012
                      • 562

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post


                      That’s not a trick. This is what we really are interested in: name, symbols, history, heritage etc. We’re not interested in the land.




                      Of course you`re not interested in the land anymore, you already took 51% of historical Macedonia which is today the richest land in Greece. All you need now is the claim on the history,heritage and symbols of the new land you have snatched. What more could you possibly want ?
                      "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task." Goce Delcev

                      Comment

                      • George S.
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2009
                        • 10116

                        #12
                        In denial means you are like a Nazi stooge.
                        THAT IS YHE GREEK STATE RUNS EVERYTHING
                        DICTATORIALLY.THIS IS RIGHTAS YOU ATE GOVERNED BY WHST HOUR
                        GOVT TELLS YOU.YOU Are just A puppetPlease tell me how Greece is the cradle
                        Of democracy.
                        "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                        GOTSE DELCEV

                        Comment

                        • Nikolaj
                          Member
                          • Aug 2014
                          • 389

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Momce Makedonce View Post
                          Of course you`re not interested in the land anymore, you already took 51% of historical Macedonia which is today the richest land in Greece. All you need now is the claim on the history,heritage and symbols of the new land you have snatched. What more could you possibly want ?
                          I hear a lot of Greek irredentists claiming Bitola to be apart of there land, and if there were to be another war but they're unable to swallow the whole of Macedonia they'd try to get Bitola at minimum.

                          You see, land isn't their interest right of this moment, but as soon as their cultural claim is over it will be once again.

                          Also, Amphipolis did you seriously ask why an airport should have a name? There is not a single airport created without a name, this is especially the case because there are cities with multiple airports.

                          Even now, formerly known as Mikra Airport and officially known as Macedonia International Airport.

                          Last edited by Nikolaj; 11-06-2014, 08:55 PM.

                          Comment

                          • Philosopher
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1003

                            #14
                            In Herodotus, all of Macedonia, including Thessaloniki (Therma) is outside of Greece and the Greek world. Even in the New Testament, Macedonia (Thessaloniki) is outside of Greece,

                            Comment

                            • Amphipolis
                              Banned
                              • Aug 2014
                              • 1328

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Momce Makedonce View Post
                              Of course you`re not interested in the land anymore, you already took 51% of historical Macedonia which is today the richest land in Greece.
                              You seem to refer to (post-1870s) Ottoman Macedonia. This is not what Greeks define as "historical Macedonia".

                              Also, Macedonia is not the richest area of Greece; it's the second richest after Continental Greece (Roumeli) and unfortunately the distance between them is huge.

                              Comment

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