Bosnia: Politics and Current Events

[Voltron]

Voltron
With comments like this it clearly demonstrates you need counselling!
If you persist along this path you may well be saying goodbye!

Oh please. Another bleeding heart liberal. Whatever...
My comments may be extreme at times, but Im extremely pissed right now. Take it with a grain of salt Makedonche.

[makedonche]

After todays news, They should release those Serb "criminals" with immunity for their actions. Let them finish what they started.

Voltron
With comments like this it clearly demonstrates you need counselling!
If you persist along this path you may well be saying goodbye!

[Voltron]

After todays news, They should release those Serb "criminals" with immunity for their actions. Let them finish what they started.

[George S.]

Does anyone know ifther are statute of limitations & if the apply to hague crminals.???I think their only escape is death?

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.rferl.org/content/eu_official_urges_serbia_enlargement_momentum/24272732.html

European Union Enlargement Commissioner Stefan Fuele has hailed Serbia's arrest of fugitive war crimes suspect Goran Hadzic. But he was quick to point out that this was not enough for Belgrade to achieve its coveted EU candidate status later this year...........

The reforms Serbia must complete are part of the "Copenhagen criteria," a set of guidelines concerning issues like the independence of the judiciary, media freedom and a friendly business environment. They are designed to facilitate a country's integration into the EU.............

The dialogue has so far not touched on the thorniest issue, the status of Kosovo.

And Fuele maintains that this is something which will need to happen before Serbia becomes an EU member.

"Serbia cannot become a member of the European Union without this issue being solved, beyond any doubt," he said. "And that's clear…it's up to Belgrade and Pristina's negotiations, with the assistance of the European Union, to bring such a solution."

http://www.m-magazine.org/index.php/en/news/region/573-doris-pack-kosovo-will-be-a-member-of-the-eu.html

.......Serbia until the end of this year, will gain the candidate status for EU membership, but not the starting date for accession negotiations. “Doris commented on the recent agreement between Belgrade and Pristina........."One of the conditions for EU membership is normal and friendly relations with neighbors of all countries. The question how this will be done with Kosovo, is "of intellectual undertaking." Perhaps one side will change its constitution before the end of negotiations for EU membership, and if that happens, the government should find a different way to achieve good relations. In any case, Kosovo will one day be a member of the EU, and this should be clear to Serbian authorities. "No attempt to prevent this will be allowed. And therefore we need to discuss this issue before Serbia's accession to the EU.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Now Goran Hadzic is caught - but I heard one EU diplomat say that this still won't automatically give Serbia a ticket into the EU 'club'. The situation with Kosovo will remain a point of contention for Serbia's EU aspirations.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/20/goran-hadzic-capture-war-crimes-milestone

The Yugoslav war crimes tribunal crowned 18 years of operations on Wednesday with the capture of the last of 161 suspects from the wars of the 1990s when Goran Hadzic, a leader of the Serbian insurgency in Croatia, was arrested by the Serbian authorities.

The arrest, two months after Belgrade captured genocide suspect General Ratko Mladic and dispatched him for trial in The Hague, marked a turning point for Serbia in seeking to put a blood-soaked, criminalised past behind it and join the European mainstream.

The arrest was also a big moment for the UN tribunal in The Hague. Every one of the 161 main war crimes suspects indicted for atrocities in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, and Kosovo has now been apprehended and tried or is awaiting trial.

"This is a precedent of enduring significance, not only for this tribunal, but also for international criminal justice more generally," said Serge Brammertz, the chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in The Hague.

"A milestone in the tribunal's history," added Judge O-Gon Kwon, the acting head of the temporary court established in 1993 at the height of the wars in Croatia and Bosnia.

Hadzic, a former warehouse worker from Slavonia, a region in east Croatia, was a political leader of the Serbian rebellion in 1991, armed and sponsored by Slobodan Milosevic's regime in Belgrade.

He led ethnic pogroms and armed insurrection against Zagreb, after Croatia's secession from Yugoslavia in June 1991, resulting in partition of the country and the Serbian seizure of a quarter of the territory during the war. Hadzic was president of the self-styled breakaway Serbian republic in Croatia for almost two years in 1992-93.

He was indicted seven years ago and faces 14 counts of crimes against humanity and violating the laws of war for "persecutions on political, racial and religious grounds; extermination; murder; imprisonment; torture; inhumane acts; deportation; inhumane acts (forcible transfers)", according to the charge sheet.

A puppet of the Milosevic regime, Hadzic was a local leader of the campaign to expel Croats from a third of Croatia and annex the territory to a "Greater Serbia" also including half of Bosnia. The campaign ended in disaster, although today's leader of the Serbian half of Bosnia, Milorad Dodik, regularly threatens to break away and destroy the country 16 years after the war ended.

Helped by the then Serbian government, Hadzic went into hiding when indicted by the tribunal in 2004. Detectives from The Hague tracked him to his house in Novi Sad, north of Belgrade, but the authorities failed to seize him.

He was arrested in the hills of northern Serbia where he was rumoured to enjoy the shelter of an Orthodox monastery.

The most notorious of his alleged crimes concerns the murders of some 250 hospital patients in Vukovar, on Croatia's Danube river border with Serbia in November 1991. The Serbs laid siege to the town for three months, shelling it to rubble. When Vukovar fell, the patients were taken to a pig farm and murdered in what acquired infamy as the Ovcara massacre.

"Justice is slow, but achievable," said the Croatian president, Ivo Josipovic, after the arrest of Hadzic, who had worked in Vukovar before the war.

A more obscure figure than Mladic or Radovan Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb leader being tried in The Hague, Hadzic was the last of that troika whom Serbia needed to capture and extradite to secure a future as a democracy and eventual accession to the European Union.

EU and Nato leaders applauded the government of President Boris Tadic in Belgrade for delivering the last of the suspected war criminals. "This is a further important step for Serbia in realising its European perspective. We salute the determination and commitment of Serbia's leadership in this effort," said an EU statement.

"The really really major obstacles are gone," an EU official added.

The arrest and imminent transfer to The Hague improves Serbia's chances of getting a go-ahead in October or November to start negotiations to join the EU. Croatia has just completed that six-year task.

War criminals apart, Serbia's EU prospects will hinge even more greatly on settling its dispute with Kosovo, the Albanian-majority province which declared independence in 2008, but which Belgrade refuses to recognise and pledges never to give up.

The first negotiations between the two sides, mediated by the EU, opened earlier this year. After a promising start, they have just broken down. Robert Cooper, the EU official in charge, postponed a session scheduled on Wednesday until September.

Diplomats in Brussels said the talks on energy, telecommunications, and cross-border trade broke down because the Serbs would not agree to new customs stamps on Kosovo exports.

"It became clear there was no chance. It's not moving anywhere," said an EU official.

More ominously, Tadic has revived talk of partitioning Kosovo, alarming the British, European and US governments.

"One should not marvel at the idea regarding the division of Kosovo since it has been present in the Serbian public for a while," Tadic said in May, prompting a furious Kosovo response.

"On Monday, Tadic proposes Kosovo's partition, on Tuesday he talks about exchange of territories, on Wednesday he suggests creating mono-ethnic states in the Balkans," said Enver Hoxhai, the Kosovo foreign minister, last month. "The borders of the Balkans are established and stable and the issues of sovereignty and territory are closed."


Last week in Croatia William Burns, the US under-secretary of state, sent a strong signal to Tadic. "Serbia faces unique challenges in joining the EU. Serbia needs to find a way to come to terms with the reality of Kosovo," he said.

"There is simply no possible way for borders in this region to be redrawn along ethnically clean lines. Any rhetoric calling for the partition of Kosovo will not advance Serbia's strategic goal of European integration."

On Monday, David Lidington, the minister for Europe, said: "The frontiers in the Balkans have been drawn and there is no going back on Kosovo's independence. Regional co-operation must be addressed in the context of an accession process for Serbia and a full European perspective for Kosovo."

[Onur]

Onur, do you have any news articles from the time relating to the above? I would be interested to read the arguments for and against. Do you think that a Turkish presence in Bosnia may have been perceived as provocative by Serbs and Croats, at least to a certain extent?

If their presence did serve as a deterrent and there were no clashes, then you're probably right. But do you really think the Serbs in Bosnia would have been intimidated by the Turks, especially during that period of high-tensions?

Serbs was already considering Bosnians as Turks. They were already perceiving Bosnian presence in there as provocative enough, and they were already intimidated as much as killing civilians in Srebrenica.

On the other hand, Croats was kinda supportive of Turkish policy of Bosnia, probably to find another ally for themselves against the Serbians.

Like i said, Turkey was highly active in all sides since 1992, the beginning of the conflict. All sides including Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), NATO, UN, EU, regional states etc.

I just found a PHD thesis about this issue in google;

...
On 5 April 1992, Serbian militants opened fire on civilians and a civil war embarked on in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Turkey condemned both the attacks on Bosnian civilians and the violation of the territorial integrity of Bosnia, the next day. Owing to Turkey’s policy of the multilateral response to the Bosnian problem, it tried to put the Bosnian War on the international agenda. For this reason, it used international and regional organizations together with bilateral relations.

Turkey’s policy could not be called passive. During the Turkish presidency in the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) and Council of Europe in 1992, Turkey put Bosnia on the agenda. Turkey called a meeting of foreign affairs ministers of OIC countries in Istanbul between 17 and 18 June, 1992 and in December, 1992 in Mecca. At the Istanbul meeting, the OIC appealed to the UN to take strict measures that included international military intervention against the Serbs.

At the same meeting, Hikmet Çetin said that if the UN asked, Turkey would decide to make use of its military force in order to end the war in Bosnia.

Turkey addressed a letter to the Islamic Development Bank (IDB) and requested an allocation of funds for humanitarian aid to Bosnians. Consequently, Turkey’s proposal was accepted and the IDB established the requested fund for Bosnia.

In addition to its efforts in international organizations, Turkey raised the Bosnian War in bilateral meetings and it proposed solutions to the Bosnian problem. Çetin visited London, Paris, New York between 4 and 12 August 1992, and he asked to take the necessary measures to stop the war in Bosnia. This initiative was called the Plan of Action for Bosnia. This plan included no concessions on the territory of Bosnia Herzegovina but the establishment of safe areas for refugees.

Turkey and Bosnia-Herzegovina had hopes of finding the solution to this problem at the London Conference of 26-28 August, 1992. They supported a military intervention by one international organization while Western powers (Germany, USA, Britain and France) supported a diplomatic solution. Turkish Foreign Minister Çetin criticized the ones who were responsible for the Bosnian tragedy and demanded the use of force on 27-28 August, 1992. During the Conference, Çetin signed a Protocol on building diplomatic relations with Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia and Slovenia. In the Conference it was decided that a solution would be found by diplomatic means.

This situation continued until the middle of 1995.

Although Turkey met with other Balkan countries to find a solution to the war, it could not reach a consensus. Foreign Affairs Ministers of South Eastern European Countries were invited to a meeting in Istanbul on 25 November, 1992. Serbia was not invited to the meeting and Greece did not take part. Bulgaria declined to intervene in Yugoslavia’s internal matters and the majority of the participants shared this idea. In fact, the failure of regional initiatives for Bosnia mainly derived from the different attitudes of the Balkan countries towards the Yugoslavian problem. At the end of the Conference, there was no call for an international military intervention.
...

http://etd.lib.metu.edu.tr/upload/12606028/index.pdf

[makedonche]

Onur, (or anyone else)

There was an incident during the Macedonian conflict where Macedonians put up barricades on the streets to stop KFOR troops entering. NATO then agreed to send only Turkish troops to pass and the blockade was lifted and Macedonians lined the streets cheering them in.

Does anyone have any more info on what all that was about?

Bill77
This may or may not be what you are referring to:-

democratic reforms. Prime minister Zoran Djindjic and president Vojislav Kostunica joined forces last year to oust Milosevic, but their differences became vivid, especially after Milosevic was handed over to the UN war crimes tribunal. Kostunica vehemently opposed the extradition and later implied that Djindjic had acted without his consent.

A crowd of 50 Macedonian nationalists blockaded the main road to neighboring Yugoslavia, vowing to prevent NATO forces from using their main supply route to Kosovo unless Western powers met a long list of demands.

Source:- planken.org The Balkans/Chronology/KFOR

[Bill77]

Onur, (or anyone else)

There was an incident during the Macedonian conflict where Macedonians put up barricades on the streets to stop KFOR troops entering. NATO then agreed to send only Turkish troops to pass and the blockade was lifted and Macedonians lined the streets cheering them in.

Does anyone have any more info on what all that was about?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Turkey aggressively spoke about interfering to the Bosnian conflict for more than a year in all NATO meetings but western world remained unconcerned and silent.

Onur, do you have any news articles from the time relating to the above? I would be interested to read the arguments for and against. Do you think that a Turkish presence in Bosnia may have been perceived as provocative by Serbs and Croats, at least to a certain extent?

Yes, maybe Serbs would hate from Turks even more but they wouldn't be accused for genocide today.

If their presence did serve as a deterrent and there were no clashes, then you're probably right. But do you really think the Serbs in Bosnia would have been intimidated by the Turks, especially during that period of high-tensions?

[makedonche]

Onur

For example, i am sure that western world would prefer to see an Albanian/Macedonian conflict in Macedonia or some kind of Kurdish/Turkish war in Turkey, so they can get involved and put their noses into our internal issues but if we do that, we would be stupid too, just like Serbs. There are other ways to resolve these problems and what Serbians did cannot be an example for any of us.

You make some very good points here that are difficult to argue against, particularly what the Serbians did and having that as an example of patriotism - i think that sort of mentality is seriously flawed, if anything the serb actions should serve as an example of what should not be done/how not to do it!
On deeeper reflection it is my view that the safehaven provided was a planned incident to get as many people into a confined area at a given point in time, with the intention of eradicating them - it all appears too co-incidental and convenient, it was far too orchestrated to be a one off occurence that just happened to have occurred.

[George S.]

looks like the un is complicit in the murders for giving them permission to take those men.You would think a safe haven is a safehaven.I'm sure they broke every convention in war.Geneva etc.The killing of civilans especially unarmed is a serious offence.If mladic can be traced to giving the order then he must be guilty of the killings.If the un couldn't keep safe these civilians at least they should've gone to countries that could give safehaven.The un seems to be a huge letdown.
Onur i read somewhere the muslims retaliated & did the same to the serbians,they were finding mass murder bodies of graves of victims whether soldiers or serb civilians..So there is possiblity that muslim leader??should have been endighted for war crimes,evidence???It will be intersting to see how it will all turn out.

[Onur]

Relatives of the genocide victims appealed for a case against Dutch authorities who were responsible for the security of Srebrenica and the Dutch court gave a decision for one of the cases;

Netherlands responsible for three deaths at Srebrenica, Dutch court rules

Dutch UN peacekeepers knew that Muslim men ran a great risk by leaving a safe compound they guarded, and they should have done more to protect three who were murdered, a Dutch court said.

An appeals court in the Netherlands ruled on Tuesday that the Dutch state is culpable for the murders of three Muslim men during the 1995 Srebrenica massacre.

The ruling was greeted with dignity by the relatives of the victims, who were in court to hear the verdict they longed for. One of the plaintiffs, Hasan Nuhanovic, was in still shock at the end of the session.

"I didn't expect it," Nuhanovic told Deutsche Welle. "Really, I don't know what to say. I prepared myself for the negative outcome; I didn't prepare myself for the positive outcome."

Nuhanovic's family were among those killed in eastern Bosnia in July 1995. The area was under the protection of Dutch UN peacekeepers, when Bosnian-Serb forces overran the enclave and murdered about 8,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys.

Nuhanovic was working as a UN translator with the Dutch battalion in Srebrenica when the Bosnian-Serb troops attacked the enclave. He tried to keep his mother, father and 19-year-old brother in the UN compound so that they could be safely evacuated. But two days later, they were asked to leave.

At the last minute, as they were about to step out of the gates, Dutch Major Robert Franken told Nuhanovic's father that he could stay after all with his son.

"And then my father shows like this in the direction of my brother; he says, 'What about my younger son and my wife?' And then Franken says to me, 'Well, it’s his choice.' So my father smiled at Franken, shook hands with him and he walked out of the compound. So my father chose to die with his younger son instead of choosing to live with his elder son."

With hindsight, Nuhanovic can understand his father's difficult decision. His remains were found 11 years later. His mother and brother were buried last year.


A serious mistake
In its ruling, the court said that the Dutchbat - as the Dutch UN forces are known - were wrong to allow the men to leave the safe area.

"The Dutchbat had been witness to multiple incidents in which the Bosnian Serbs mistreated or killed male refugees outside the compound. The Dutch therefore knew that ... the men were at great risk if they were to leave the compound," the court said in its ruling.

Rizo Mustafic was another who died. He was working as an electrician for the Dutch battalion and he too was ordered to leave the compound with his family. His remains were only found 16 years later. He will be buried this week. His son Damir Mustafic was at the court in The Hague to hear the verdict.

"I'm going to bury my dad on July 11 and it's going to be tough, but this feels good," Mustafic said.


Anger at foreign troops
Survivors of the Srebrenica massacre have long accused the Netherlands of neglecting the refugees and of voluntarily handing them over to Bosnian-Serb troops, but this is the first time a judicial decision has placed responsibility for what happened on the Dutch state.

Liesbeth Zegveld, lawyer for the prosecution said a new page has been turned in international justice.

"The state has now ruled that state responsibility does exist; even though there was a peacekeeping operation, and command and control have been transferred to the United Nations … you can still be held accountable for wrongdoing during that peacekeeping operation," Zegveld said.

The Dutch Ministry of Defense has maintained throughout a number of recent lawsuits that the UN abandoned the Dutch troops and provided them with no air support. The government is likely to appeal the decision.

05.07.2011

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,15211253,00.html

This was my own msg here one year ago;

It obvious that you have no idea what happened in srebrenica.

Srebrenica was a security zone covered by only Dutch battalion in the name of UN. Also it was a zone under blockade by the Serbs. So people had no guns and any weapon. When Serbian soldiers tried to invade it, Dutch soldiers just surrendered them and Serbs taken them as a hostage.

Serbs had a deal with the Dutch commander to hand over Srebrenica for the return of Dutch hostages and they agreed by having a champagne;


You can see Ratko Mladic and Dutch commander here


Then Serbs gathered every men above 14 years of age in town and killed them all in just 4 days, threw their bodies in to the pits.

Turkey aggressively spoke about interfering to the Bosnian conflict for more than a year in all NATO meetings but western world remained unconcerned and silent. Then Srebrenica events happened and all of a sudden Mr. Clinton and the rest decided to bomb Serbs and create Bosnian state.

For example, if Turkish troops would be there for the protection of Srebrenica security zone for the civilians, Mladic`s troops would had no way to enter there. Yes, maybe Serbs would hate from Turks even more but they wouldn't be accused for genocide today.

I am still very suspicious about the stupid decision of the Dutch battalion. It`s impossible that they decided to act that way by their own will. It must be UN authorities who gave them orders, so it was them who let the wolves (Mladic and co.) enter to the sheep farm (Srebrenica) in first place.

[George S.]

you make some valid points there onur.Mladic was a egomaniacal person & im sure he got appointed to do what he did because of his sick credentials.

[Onur]

Vojnik, you gotta consider the results of his their actions. They are deep shit because of their actions, both for Bosnia and then Kosovo. People like Mladic simply destroyed their own country because of their high temper, sick logic and genocidal minds. And they did exactly what westerners wanted, maybe that`s why Dutch battalion commander let him enter to the Srebrenica and tossed champagnes with him, who knows.

What Mladic or other Serbs did may look like patriotism at first sight but i call that stupidity and with their stupidity, they buy into the Western BS in the end.

For example, i am sure that western world would prefer to see an Albanian/Macedonian conflict in Macedonia or some kind of Kurdish/Turkish war in Turkey, so they can get involved and put their noses into our internal issues but if we do that, we would be stupid too, just like Serbs. There are other ways to resolve these problems and what Serbians did cannot be an example for any of us.