Bosnia: Politics and Current Events

[Bratot]

I cant say that i know the history of Bosnia very well but i know that the term "Bosniaks" existed even at 16th century in the Ottoman Empire. It doesn't matter how the Tito`s government treated to them. For example there was no Macedonian nationality under the Yugoslavian regime either but this didn't have any significance because even in the 15th century Ottoman regime, there was Macedonia and Macedonian people like there was Bosnia and Bosniaks at 16th century.

I also know that the Bosniaks are same people with the Croats and Serbs and they all speak same language as well.

What i don't understand is the ideology of the Serbs. Why they started to call their kinsmen as Turks? Just because they are muslims? and why they wanted to eradicate them as a whole? and why some people covers their eyes and ears purposely to not see or accept the obvious intention of the Serbs during the war? Just because some Arabian Mujaheddins came to Bosnia to help them? or just because they killed some Serbs in return? If you would be in their place, what would you do vs them? you would defend yourself by any means necessary like any other human being does, right?


Also, you mention about the Torbeshi people in Macedonia. Can you even imagine the same thing happening in Macedonia? Like "Christian Macedonians decides to get rid of their kinsmen just because they are muslims!" Thats unimaginable nonsense!!! but thats what the Serbs tried to do in Bosnia. They were the majority in the area and they wanted to get rid of the muslims even if they were practically same people.

Onur,

I'm surprised that you are surprised since it was the Ottoman regime that inforced such religious aversions among our people.

It was your people actually that started to divide our people only according their religion and that fact has a huge impact on everything which followed later.

The tirany made by the Turks produced such animosity toward muslim faith and to be honest it's very easy to revive the negative feelings attached to history but still present in the religion.
When your ancestors were forcing the Christian population to become muslims don't be surprised why there is still negative feeling about anything connected to you - in this case the islam.

That's how it is, without any personal remark to you.

[Prolet]

Onur, We are the same people with the Torbeshi, we would never allow anybody to divide us on religion. These Mudjahadeens that come into Bosnia burned Orthodox and Catholic Churches from 600 years ago, they kicked out thousands of people from their homes and executed women and children. I think it was wrong for the Serbs to do that to the Muslims in Bosnia, Serbians are more nationalistic and they have a different ideology to us. We are more tolerant and we've lived with Muslims for centuries, this is why we didnt fight with them.

Bajram is a public holiday in Macedonia, this was done because of our Muslim people inside Macedonia. The Prime Minister and President personally congratulate these holly days for the Muslim People, during the Pilgrimage to Mecca, Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski actually encouraged all people to do that at least once in their life time, he ordered ambulances to follow the people to their journeys just incase anybody gets sick or injured.

The thing that upsets us most is that these Mudjahadeens spread Wahhabism inside Bosnia and now they spread their radicalism to places like Macedonia,Sandzak,Monte Negro,Kosovo and Albania. I dont think a country like Turkey would ever allow something like this to happen on its territory, bringing in medieval laws that degrade women and give men all the power to do what they like to them i think Ataturk would be turning in his grave if something like that were to happen in Turkey.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Just as a side note. Hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Bosnians were slaughtered and evicted from their lands during WWI and WWII. Do we have any statistics with regard to the population of Bosnia prior to this period? I have heard that the Orthodox people were the majority at the time Austria decided to annex Bosnia.

[Onur]

There is one thing you dont understand Onur, you dont know the History of Bosnia for starters. That territory was given a republic by Tito to stop the fighting between the Croats and Serbs, in WW2 the Croats had the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina region while in WW1 the Serbs controlled it. The Bosnian Muslims are Serbs and Croats who changed their religion during the Ottoman Empire they have never been a separate nationality, we have Torbeshi here who are Macedonians but with a Muslim religion.

I cant say that i know the history of Bosnia very well but i know that the term "Bosniaks" existed even at 16th century in the Ottoman Empire. It doesn't matter how the Tito`s government treated to them. For example there was no Macedonian nationality under the Yugoslavian regime either but this didn't have any significance because even in the 15th century Ottoman regime, there was Macedonia and Macedonian people like there was Bosnia and Bosniaks at 16th century.

I also know that the Bosniaks are same people with the Croats and Serbs and they all speak same language as well.

What i don't understand is the ideology of the Serbs. Why they started to call their kinsmen as Turks? Just because they are muslims? and why they wanted to eradicate them as a whole? and why some people covers their eyes and ears purposely to not see or accept the obvious intention of the Serbs during the war? Just because some Arabian Mujaheddins came to Bosnia to help them? or just because they killed some Serbs in return? If you would be in their place, what would you do vs them? you would defend yourself by any means necessary like any other human being does, right?


Also, you mention about the Torbeshi people in Macedonia. Can you even imagine the same thing happening in Macedonia? Like "Christian Macedonians decides to get rid of their kinsmen just because they are muslims!" Thats unimaginable nonsense!!! but thats what the Serbs tried to do in Bosnia. They were the majority in the area and they wanted to get rid of the muslims even if they were practically same people.

[Prolet]

There is one thing you dont understand Onur, you dont know the History of Bosnia for starters. That territory was given a republic by Tito to stop the fighting between the Croats and Serbs, in WW2 the Croats had the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina region while in WW1 the Serbs controlled it. The Bosnian Muslims are Serbs and Croats who changed their religion during the Ottoman Empire they have never been a separate nationality, we have Torbeshi here who are Macedonians but with a Muslim religion.

The Serbs made a mistake of being far too nationalistic but at the same time they've always lived in Bosnia this has never been disputed. Alija Izetbegovic is by far the biggest war criminal in Bosnia, he is the one who brought in the Mudjahadeens you have to understand Onur that Bosnia during the Former YU was viewed as the most tolerant multi Ethnic state and there are mixed marriages there more then any other Republic. Macedonia is probably the only former YU Republic that is nearing the end of its denationalization process, where as now in Croatia and Bosnia even Serbia when they start investigating who owns which piece of land and which bit of land needs to be given back to the original owners this is where there will be many problems. Especially during the Communist Era where alot of land was confiscated.

Srebrenica before the Massacre was a Bosnian Muslim strong hold till the Serbs took it over and then it became a safe zone within the UN which was controlled by Dutch Troops, you should investigate how many Serbs were killed by the Bosnian Muslims. There is no doubt that the massacre was a terrible thing and its not way justifiable, everybody agrees with that.

The reason why there was so much bloodshed in Bosnia is because each side believed that the country was theirs, so everybody believed the others were intruders but the reality is that Land belongs to all the people there.

[Onur]

I am not out of my mind and you shouldnt be so touchy just because some crazy muslims decided to go into war. Yeah poor them they didn;t have weapons. Srebrenica was a safe zone and yet 8500 muslims were killed, i wonder how the media could have played that for years and years to come agains the Serbs. Massive graves? Maybe someone wanted them so they can use it and blackmail Serbia forever. How many Serbs died in the war? Or you don't give a fuck? I am not against Muslism, let's make that clear before I am branded a racist (that's how it works these days).

They wanted war, they didnt want to live with the Serbs, why whine now? Or are they tough as long as America and EU supply them with weapons and promise them everything.
Do you think Kosovo;s independence is legal? Actually you probably do because you will never put a blame on a Muslim, I did think you were different.

Bosnians wanted and started the war??? I am sorry but you are in delusion again.

Jankovska, you are the one who separates people according to their religion. I am not touchy just because Bosniaks are Muslims. Hell, i am not even a Muslim myself, i don't believe any religion. I am touchy because of your denial about what happened in the war at Bosnia.

Well, maybe i can be extra sensitive about Bosnians because 100s of them was living in my elementary school`s sport center and we, the students was buying them foods with our pocket money instead of buying coca cola for ourselves. One family was also staying in my friend`s house as a guest. I still remember their faces today. The pain and suffering was clearly visible when you look at their sad faces.

Trust me, i would be as touchy as now if the Muslim Bosnians would do the same to the Serbs because i am against any horrible crimes against people, no matter what their ethnicity or religion. On the other hand, while you try to diminish the importance of the massacre in Srebrenica, you overemphasize the loss of the Serbs by saying that some mujaheddins imported from middle-east and killed the Christians.



P. S: Didnt you read my message at the first page of this thread? Read it if you wanna learn how 8500+ Bosnians handed over to the Serbian Jihadists by the Dutch soldiers, so they can realize the massacre.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=63709#post63709

You know, after killing them, Serbian army commander said that they just killed the Turks, so there is no need to worry about it. I have no idea whatever the fuck he meant cuz there is no relation whatsoever between the Turks and Bosnians in an ethnic sense. Maybe every muslim are Turks in his sick mind? dunno !?

The proposition Athens and Belgrade had during the war in Bosnia was to form an 'Orthodox Union' to destroy the Muslims. The union would have included Serbia, modern "greece", Bulgaria, Russia, Romania, and the Ukraine. Notice someone missing in this equation? That's because the plans for Macedonia after the war in Bosnia were made.

This was the one and only reason of the war in Bosnia started by the Serbs. It`s clear as a day since Serbian aggressors declared this several times. Thanks for the message TM.

[TrueMacedonian]

An old topic on this particular event. http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=1745

[TrueMacedonian]

ALso read my book review on "Unholy Alliance" by Takis Michas - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...?t=1965&page=4

[TrueMacedonian]

Here's an interview with Takis Michas about Grk involvement in the Srebrenica massacres. A must read to see how the Grk media and government were accomplices.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/30787525/Greeks-Complicit-in-Srebrenica-Genocide-Takis-Michas

Interview with Takis Michas, Greek journalist sued for
writing about the presence of Greek paramilitaries in
Bosnia

Interviewer: Daniel Toljaga Congress of North American Bosniaks


On 27 July 2009 Mr. Stavros Vitalis, representing the Panhellenic Macedonian Front, filed a libel suit against the acclaimed journalist Mr. Takis Michas, best known for his authorship of the book “Unholy Alliance: Greece and Milosevic’s Serbia.” He is suing the journalist for describing – in the daily “Eleftherotypia” – Greek mercenaries as “paramilitaries who took
part in the slaughter in Srebrenica.” Mr. Vitalis is one of the leading Greek volunteers who have admitted taking part in the Srebrenica genocide. But, that’s not how he sees it. In a statement distributed to the media, he claimed that the Greek volunteers who fought in Bosnia under the command of General Mladic were there in order to help the Serbs “who were being slaughtered by international gangs that
were also stealing their houses, their country and their dignity.


DANIEL TOLJAGA: Mr. Michas, thank you for agreeing to take part in this interview. To begin with, what is the Panhellenic Macedonian Front that has filed this suit against you through its representative Mr. Vitalis?

TAKIS MICHAS: It is a Greek nationalist political organization which also includes socialists and conservative former politicians. Up until now its central campaign theme has been its advocacy of the view that Macedonia along with everything related to it (history, symbols, etc.) is exclusively Greek.

DANIEL TOLJAGA: What exactly does Mr. Vitalis hope to achieve with this lawsuit?

TAKIS MICHAS: Bearing in mind that Karadzic’s trial will also be taking place next year, what they will be hoping is to create an alternative debate in which the substance of what happened at Srebrenica will be called into question. In other words, while the world is trying the war crimes perpetrated at Srebrenica, in Greece they will be putting the critics of the war crimes at Srebrenica on trial!

DANIEL TOLJAGA: Do you have any comments about the lawsuit and the press statements Mr. Vitalis has made?

TAKIS MICHAS: Yes. First of all Mr. Vitalis explicitly admits that Greeks (i.e. himself) took part in the planning and execution of the Serb “re-occupation” (as he calls it) of Srebrenica. As he says in his press statement “I was present with a group of senior Serb officers in all the operations for the re-occupation of Srebrenica by the Serbs”.
Secondly, Mr Vitalis admits that the recruitment of Greek volunteers for the war against the legitimate government of Bosnia took place with the implicit approval of the leading Greek politicians Andreas Papandreou and (to a lesser extent) Constantine Mitsotakis. As he puts it:
“The whole of Greece knows that the Greek volunteers had the broad support of Greek society as a whole as well as the support of politicians, mainly belonging to PASOK, because of the warm friendship between Andreas Papandreou and Radovan Karadzic. They also enjoyed the support of New Democracy, through the friendly diplomatic initiatives of Constantine Mitsotakis.”
This reinforces the point I have repeatedly made, namely that Greek support for the Serb war effort was not only moral, economic, diplomatic and political but also military.

DANIEL TOLJAGA: Was Mr. Vitalis present during and after the fall of Srebrenica when Greek paramilitaries hoisted the Greek flag over the town?

TAKIS MICHAS: Well in his own statement he said that together with high ranking Serb officers he took part in all the operations that dealt with the “reoccupation” (as he calls it) of Srebrenica. Now as to whether he was physically present in the hoisting of the flag this is something that only Mr. Mladic knows (and perhaps Mr. Karadzic)!

DANIEL TOLJAGA: It is interesting that he publicly admitted being present himself “in all the military operations” related to the “re-occupation” of Srebrenica. Do you have any idea why Mr. Vitalis has not been investigated for possible war crimes?

TAKIS MICHAS: Because, as I have shown in my book, in Greece Serb actions during the war in Bosnia are not regarded as “crimes” but as “heroic deeds”. This applies to Srebrenica as well. No Greek government has made any statement at any time during the last 15 years explicitly condemning the killings at Srebrenica – this is a unique state of affairs for a European country.

DANIEL TOLJAGA: In the words of U.N. Judge Theodor Meron, who served as the President of the ICTY, Serbs – and I quote – “targeted for extinction the forty thousand Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica.” In your opinion, is Mr. Vitalis fully aware that the military operations he took part in resulted in the summary killings of more than 8,000 and the ethnic cleansing of approximately 30,000 people in July 1995? Is he aware that he took part in genocide?

TAKIS MICHAS: According to his own admissions, yes. However, just like Holocaust deniers, these people refuse to accept that mass killings took place in Srebrenica.

DANIEL TOLJAGA: Your book revealed for the first time the presence of Greek paramilitaries in Bosnia. Why has Mr. Vitalis waited so many years since the publication of your book to file a suit?

TAKIS MICHAS: This is an interesting question. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that as I have hinted in other articles I am now in possession of confidential diplomatic documents that show the Greek authorities for the first time admitting the presence of Greek paramilitaries in Bosnia. Possibly they think that by putting pressure on me now they will prevent me publishing these documents. But this of course is only one explanation. There may be others.

DANIEL TOLJAGA: Mr. Vitalis has claimed that the operations of the Greek volunteers “were widely endorsed by Greek society because of the warm friendship that existed between Andreas Papandreou and Radovan Karadzic.” To what extent did this friendship suggest that the government may have been involved?

TAKIS MICHAS: Obviously it involves government in the sense of knowing, tolerating and endorsing the open recruitment of Greek citizens with the aim of fighting against the legally recognized government of Bosnia. It certainly implicates the government of PASOK under Andreas Papandreou.

DANIEL TOLJAGA: I remember, and you also referred to this in your book, that leading Greek judges had publicly refused to cooperate with the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY). Considering that your right to a fair trial may be seriously impaired by the extreme ultranationalist atmosphere in Greece and the fact that Mr. Vitalis has announced that he plans to call leading Greek nationalist politicians as witnesses, I would like to know whether you intend to seek support from prominent international organizations that specialize in the protection of journalistic freedom?

TAKIS MICHAS: I will certainly be trying to spread the word. Judging from the lawsuit they have filed against me, I guess that from now on they will also be making the glorification of the Serb war effort in Bosnia one of their campaign themes.

DANIEL TOLJAGA: Are you worried about the forthcoming trial?

TAKIS MICHAS: In any other European country this lawsuit would have been thrown out of court. But as I have said repeatedly Greece is not a normal European country. Given the spirit of extreme nationalism that permeates the country and the fact that Karadzic and Mladic are venerated as saints by the majority of the public and the political class, I have every reason to feel worried.

DANIEL TOLJAGA: Thank you for taking part in this interview. We will be keeping a close eye on the progress of your case.

[TrueMacedonian]

Jankovska why are you defending the Serbs? Do you realize that during this war with Bosnia they proposed to the grks the carving of Macedonia so that they could be neighbors?
Everything that was happening in Bosnia affected Macedonia more than we even realize. And besides that I notice that this "western propaganda" thing keeps popping up about the war in Bosnia. This term was extensively used in Athens and first used in Athens when NATO denounced the Serb warcimes. The proposition Athens and Belgrade had during the war in Bosnia was to form an 'Orthodox Union' to destroy the Muslims. The union would have included Serbia, modern "greece", Bulgaria, Russia, Romania, and the Ukraine. Notice someone missing in this equation? That's because the plans for Macedonia after the war in Bosnia were made.
The one thing the grk media constantly repeated to make the warcrimes for the Serbs look less evil was what you said a few times already Jankovska;

What the Serbs did in the war is disgusting, truly horrible. But what everyone forgets is the Muslims and Croats did cause just as much damage.

Is this supposed to wipe the slate clean? Or are we to say "Well this cancels everything out then".

[Jankovska]

I am not out of my mind and you shouldnt be so touchy just because some crazy muslims decided to go into war. Yeah poor them they didn;t have weapons. Srebrenica was a safe zone and yet 8500 muslims were killed, i wonder how the media could have played that for years and years to come agains the Serbs. Massive graves? Maybe someone wanted them so they can use it and blackmail Serbia forever. How many Serbs died in the war? Or you don't give a fuck? I am not against Muslism, let's make that clear before I am branded a racist (that's how it works these days). I am for fairness and I think that the Serbs are the only ones paying for the war and yet the poor mudzahedini live much better lifes now than anyone. Also look at the Croats and than look at the Serbs? Or someone wanted to make sure they are in the position they are at the moment. The Muslims in Bosnia deserves as much as they got as well as the Serbs in that war. It will be fair to have some of the mudzehedinski leaders in Hague but that's not gonna happen coz they are protected. It makes me sick when someone plays the victim all the time. They wanted war, they didnt want to live with the Serbs, why whine now? Or are they tough as long as America and EU supply them with weapons and promise them everything.
Do you think Kosovo;s independence is legal? Actually you probably do because you will never put a blame on a Muslim, I did think you were different.
Srebrenica is just a horrible past and people should pay for it but my god there are lots of muslims that need to pay for war crimes too. They need to be brought to justice mate like it or not. If you think you are gonna sell me a story about how the Mudzahedini were saints than I think it's you who needs to check the drugs they are on.
Was the problem in 2001 in Macedonia our fault? Afterall the Albanians 'didn't' have weapons and we had a whole fucking army. Please go sell your western propaganda to someone elsem I grew up on the Balkans.

[Onur]

What the Serbs did in the war is disgusting, truly horrible. But what everyone forgets is the Muslims and Croats did cause just as much damage. The Srebrenica thing is totaly blown out of proportion and in my opinion it was a set up.

Are you out of your mind?????

Who arranged Srebrenica for what? So, you are trying to say that ~8500+ people accepted to die and to be thrown into the mass graves just to set up the events? Are you for real Jankovska? What type of drug you are using?

What kind of unfairness you talking about? If what you say is true, then where are the mass graves of Serbians??? Is there such a thing exists? There cant be because Bosniaks had no army unlike the Serbs. That was the only unfairness.

The biggest Mujaheddins in Bosnia was the Serbs and Greek christian jihadists, no one else.

At least try to be honest. There was a guy in the forum with Russian tsar picture on his avatar. He once said that Greeks and Serbs served to the Christianity by mass murdering muslims and they did their best to eradicate last remaining muslims in Balkans and he was praising to the Serbs and Greeks who participated to the genocide.

At least try to be honest like him and accept the reality. Quit blabbering.

[Jankovska]

What the Serbs did in the war is disgusting, truly horrible. But what everyone forgets is the Muslims and Croats did cause just as much damage. The Srebrenica thing is totaly blown out of proportion and in my opinion it was a set up.
What bothers me the most however is that the Serbs were the only criminals, bullshit. If you live by the sword you'll die by the sword or this doesn't apply to the mudzahedins? I hardly remember anyone from the Croats or Mudzahedins being kept in Dan Haag, waiting to be brought up to justice. Unfairness makes me sick and the world has been unfair not towards the Serbs but the situations. The mudzahedins are no saints, they knew what they were doing and now they are the only victims? Bullshit. When I see all the mudzahedini in Hague as well as Croats I will say justice is done, until than Srebrenica is just a part of a war for me.
Funny how the the same thing repeted in Macedonia, Ahmeti is in parliment, Traculovski in Hague? Poor muslims, always the victims.

[TrueMacedonian]

Prolet and Ozimak, vie ne ste normalni. Sure there are aspects of truth in what you say about propaganda and that wars are messy. But to imply that everyone was equally involved and responsible absolves the Serbs of their conduct in Bosnia. I will always blame them for what they have done to Bosnia.

Good post sf. The Serbs will shelling villages where they knew the majority of the people were elderly and children. The only idiots to condone and protect the Serbs during this time were the grks and they were frawned upon by the rest of the world.

[iskra]

This post shows that you have no idea about this. Shit was going down in Bosnia before the mujahideen even knew the place existed. And if we all lived in harmony in the Balkans, there would have been no need for these extremists to enter our sphere.

Very well said sf and Prolet you should be more careful about how you chronicle the facts.