Kevin Rudd Prime Minister Again

[Vangelovski]

Yeah, subsidising is a bad word. I am really interested in the notion of funding innovation in this regard. We have the resources, if we can automate many of the procedures in refining the resources, surely this is better than what is happening now. I can't see why digging stuff out of our ground is any better than in East Timor or wherever. Same resources, less red tape in other countries. This is already a factor in many industries. China is overlooking our industries if it can find similar ones elsewhere in countries without our layers of bureaucracy.

I like the idea of privately funded innovation and R&D with the corresponding reward in profits should it succeed or loss should it fail. I certainly don't think the public should be paying for potentially profit making endeavours of private companies nor subsidising their losses.

I don't know if cutting out the bureaucratic nightmare we have here is the only answer, but I agree its probably the biggest part of the equation, along with the lack of cheap labour (though getting rid of red/green tape and dropping taxes might make up for our labour costs, I don't know).

But I think red tape is endemic in Australia and only getting worse - not only in business but in the private lives of individuals. The amount of forms I fill in and the amount of paper that seems to accumulate in my study is unbelievable. And its mostly useless, pointless, time consuming junk. The amount of licences, registrations, identification cards, passes and other crap I have to carry around just to get by in the course of a normal day is mindboggling. Add to that all of the rules, responsibilities and obligations that come with each one and anyone of us is probably breaking some law or regulation at least a number of times per day without even knowing it because of the idiotically overregulated society that we live in. In addition to all of that, its needlessly making us poorer as individuals because of the cost to implement and maintain all these laws and regulations, most of which have little or no benefit.

[Risto the Great]

Yeah, subsidising is a bad word. I am really interested in the notion of funding innovation in this regard. We have the resources, if we can automate many of the procedures in refining the resources, surely this is better than what is happening now. I can't see why digging stuff out of our ground is any better than in East Timor or wherever. Same resources, less red tape in other countries. This is already a factor in many industries. China is overlooking our industries if it can find similar ones elsewhere in countries without our layers of bureaucracy.

[Phoenix]

I understand the Chinese buy our iron ore and refine it in Malaysia because the cost of labour is too high in China!

Why shouldn't the government subsidise our industry to find a way to refine our raw materials here in Australia? It makes perfect sense. If I was a politician, I could sell the shit out of that. It could drive innovation and make our country a nation that promotes intellectual property and industry best practice. Better that than throwing some money at Ford or GM.

I think there's far more to gain from the auto sector in terms of hi-tech jobs than digging up base metals.
The other obvious problem with mining is the environmental impact both in digging it out of the ground and eventually turning it into steel and aluminum.

Today, mining and steel production is termed dirty industry and best suited for 3rd world countries with less regard for their environment.

Australia needs to take the next step up, we've moved away from textile manufacture and low skill manufacturing, the next step is higher technology sectors dedicated to R&D, aerospace and the exotic materials used in those industries now and into the future.

[Vangelovski]

I don't know whether I'd subsidise any industry but I certainly wouldn't tax it to the point that it closes business down or drives it overseas. Most people look at the resources completly out of context. They think that all we get out of them is what we directly tax companies. People forget about the billions invested by companies in infrastrustructure, the creation of jobs, the creation of businesses that directly and indirectly service the mining industry and its employees, the employment they create, the additional payroll taxes paid by employees hired by the mining companies and the businesses that service them, the increased GST revenue collected from increased spending as a result of increased employment etc, etc, etc. All this is ignored and the focus seems to be solely on how many tonnes of minerals were sold and the cut that the government "should" take.

When you drive mining companies, or any business, out of Australia, you lose all of these benefits which are much greater than some pathetic mining tax.

I like Chris' idea of encouraging private industry to open refining operations in Australia, but I'm not sure that subsidisation is the best way to do that. From what I can tell, subsidisation creates lazy and unsustainable businesses who rely on government handouts rather than their own entreprenurship and innovation. GM and Ford, which you mentioned, come to mind. Rather than sucking tax payers dry, they should simply make cars that Australians want at a price they are willing to pay.

I'd much prefer refining operations be made cheaper through perhaps tax breaks and cuts in red tape. Maybe even through a more flexible industrial relations system.

[Risto the Great]

I agree, Australia's resources have been abused for far too long. Even much of our food produce is exported overseas, and we are subsequently overcharged. Seafood is a good example. What raw materials should be subsidised? As far as I'm concerned the mining industry should be taxed, not subsidised.

I understand the Chinese buy our iron ore and refine it in Malaysia because the cost of labour is too high in China!

Why shouldn't the government subsidise our industry to find a way to refine our raw materials here in Australia? It makes perfect sense. If I was a politician, I could sell the shit out of that. It could drive innovation and make our country a nation that promotes intellectual property and industry best practice. Better that than throwing some money at Ford or GM.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

You and EM seem to have the Macedonian mentality that if you're against the ALP you must be pro Coalition (insert SDSM and DPMNE). Why is that?

Again, do you know and understand the details of the legislation you support? As usual in these matters, you're just giving me slogans.

Well, I'd say in 90%+ of cases it is true. The minor parties receive a very small percentage of votes, so who else do you think people who are anti-Labor will vote for?

[EgejskaMakedonia]

What handouts are you talking about and how do you distinguish them from what Labor did? The Labor government in fact was far from effective in preventing a recession. It delayed the inevitable and did it carelessly. That is all. They are broke. Australia is broke. Working at the coal face (in a way) I have never seen the ATO so aggressive in its quest to get paid. This is coming right from the top I have no doubt whatsoever about this.

Australia has been raped of its resources since time immemorial. It is a dumb country that opens its legs at every opportunity. Instead of subsidising any process that adds value to raw materials, it taxes the miners ... and gets nothing anyway. Other than to diminish confidence in the industry and force major miners to overseas markets.

Give me Turnbull over Abbot any day. But don't mistake Abbot for a fool. He is a Rhodes scholar. He is portrayed as quite dumb. I am relatively impressed with his sense of dignity. I also like his attitude to fitness and health. What an example he sets for middle aged men. The people that mock him for his budgie smugglers should try looking at their feet. Definitely ready for a change and Labor's time is up in every sense.

There are several examples of handouts introduced by the Howard government. The baby bonus and first home owner's grant just to name a few. The Howard Government was the most wasteful spender we've seen for quite some time, but much of this was disguised by the mining boom that began in the early 2000s. Contrarily, Labor assumed power during a period of economic turmoil, and many of their handouts were justified. The stimulus package encouraged spending in the market, and even decisions such as deposit guarantees and the purchase of securities from struggling financial institutions prevented Australia from going into recession.

I agree, Australia's resources have been abused for far too long. Even much of our food produce is exported overseas, and we are subsequently overcharged. Seafood is a good example. What raw materials should be subsidised? As far as I'm concerned the mining industry should be taxed, not subsidised.

Turnbull is far more sensible than Abbott. Unfortunately his moderate line of thinking has been all but crushed since he lost the party leadership. When watching him talk about various issues, it is evident that he is following party policy and not necessarily his own beliefs. Abbott is smart, but in a cunning way. A politician is hardly a role model for fitness and health. There are plenty of other public figures who are better suited to that role. Besides, if anything that is remotely like workchoices is introduced by an Abbott government, most workers will have more to worry about than their fitness.

[Vangelovski]

The Labor government in fact was far from effective in preventing a recession. It delayed the inevitable and did it carelessly. That is all. They are broke. Australia is broke. Working at the coal face (in a way) I have never seen the ATO so aggressive in its quest to get paid. This is coming right from the top I have no doubt whatsoever about this.

You need not doubt Chris - its coming from the top. In fact, I don't think the average Australian quite realises how broke this government is and how much each and every one of us will be paying through the backside to bring the treasury back into the black or for how long.

[Vangelovski]

I've already told you why I praised Gillard but unfortunately you're not interested in my opinion.
Assuming you accidentally overlooked my previous opinions, I'll make another attempt.

I believe Gillard did extremely well to hold together a difficult minority government, whilst introducing some very important legislation, particularly the NDIS amongst others.

Of all of your critique of my previous posts I don't believe you've questioned the NDIS as perhaps Gillards crowning glory in office.

Now rather than being the Forums very own 'Mr No' or the 'Mad Monk' if you prefer, tell us about the inherent evils of legislation like the NDIS or Gonski in an attempt to improve the living standards of disabled Australians and the education levels of the future generations of this country.

Phoenix - my key question, which you continue to avoid, is whether you know and understand the details of these initiatives and why you think these specific mechanisms will achieve what you claim they will? I know that you've listed them, but you've provided no reasons as to why beyond superficial slogans that they will supposedly improve the living standards of Australians. I think this is a fair question - if you're going to praise Gillard for hundreds of pieces of legislation, at least give us the specific reasons as to why you think they are any good.

You keep talking about Gonski and the NDIS - what about them is it that you think is going to be so great?

[Phoenix]

Well, considering you actually praised Gillard for passing hundreds of pieces of legislation and I asked you why you thought they deserved praise, shouldn't you at least try to answer that first before asking what I think? You're just avoiding having to answer now. A simple 'I don't know' would suffice if that is the case.

I've already told you why I praised Gillard but unfortunately you're not interested in my opinion.
Assuming you accidentally overlooked my previous opinions, I'll make another attempt.

I believe Gillard did extremely well to hold together a difficult minority government, whilst introducing some very important legislation, particularly the NDIS amongst others.

Of all of your critique of my previous posts I don't believe you've questioned the NDIS as perhaps Gillards crowning glory in office.

Now rather than being the Forums very own 'Mr No' or the 'Mad Monk' if you prefer, tell us about the inherent evils of legislation like the NDIS or Gonski in an attempt to improve the living standards of disabled Australians and the education levels of the future generations of this country.

[Risto the Great]

Howard spent bugger all on infrastructure and preferred to use those years of economic prosperity to give handouts and essentially buy votes. The Labor government was very effective in preventing a recession in Australia during the GFC. They took some bold steps to ensure that the markets didn't dry up and confidence was maintained. They have spent a considerable amount on infrastructure as well since the economic crisis, when many other nations have experienced economic retraction.

What handouts are you talking about and how do you distinguish them from what Labor did? The Labor government in fact was far from effective in preventing a recession. It delayed the inevitable and did it carelessly. That is all. They are broke. Australia is broke. Working at the coal face (in a way) I have never seen the ATO so aggressive in its quest to get paid. This is coming right from the top I have no doubt whatsoever about this.

Tax is a major source of revenue for the Government, yet people complain when the fat cats in WA are taxed on their mining operations. God knows why people oppose this, I guess we are more content with our natural resources being exported overseas, lining the pockets of billionaires. You can't have it both ways. Maybe we should adopt Kennet's line of thinking and privatise everything in an effort to balance the books...the Liberal way.

Australia has been raped of its resources since time immemorial. It is a dumb country that opens its legs at every opportunity. Instead of subsidising any process that adds value to raw materials, it taxes the miners ... and gets nothing anyway. Other than to diminish confidence in the industry and force major miners to overseas markets.

How can people even begin to trust Abbott when he refuses to face the media at all? All of his speeches are pre-prepared, and we've all seen what an idiot he is when put on the spot (nodding for 25 seconds like a stunned mullet). We hear a lot of negativity about the ALP from Abbott, and he often chucks up the phrase, 'stop the boats,' yet his solution is unlikely to work.

Give me Turnbull over Abbot any day. But don't mistake Abbot for a fool. He is a Rhodes scholar. He is portrayed as quite dumb. I am relatively impressed with his sense of dignity. I also like his attitude to fitness and health. What an example he sets for middle aged men. The people that mock him for his budgie smugglers should try looking at their feet. Definitely ready for a change and Labor's time is up in every sense.

[Vangelovski]

I don't see what is wrong with making decisions for myself, you don't know whats best for me, nor does the government so why make it?

Egejska makes a very important point here.

Phoenix, do you think that I personally should be involved in making decisions regarding your life?

[Vangelovski]

I haven't voted ALP at a Federal or State election for over a decade now, so there goes your theory...sounds like you're about slogans more than I am.

You still haven't explained your standing on issues like health, education, infrastructure investment and development, the environment and the workplace.

Lets hear your about your own utopian, Tea Party like views of how a country should be run...

Well, considering you actually praised Gillard for passing hundreds of pieces of legislation and I asked you why you thought they deserved praise, shouldn't you at least try to answer that first before asking what I think? You're just avoiding having to answer now. A simple 'I don't know' would suffice if that is the case.

[Phoenix]

With all due respect Phoenix but the Liberal party offers nothing like that. In my view and I'm sure most Australians view both major parties as practically the same - policies wise.

And with your preference with socialism compared to fiscal conservatism, I honestly don't see what is wrong with a free market and a small government. I don't see what is wrong with making decisions for myself, you don't know whats best for me, nor does the government so why make it?

It's worrying that someone nowadays would rather live in a socialist society as opposed to a free society and the current "conservatives" in the US are just neoconservatives who portray themselves as small government loving conservatives but are actually big government people who support unconstitutional wars and spying on their citizens.

My preference is toward a political party that has a strong social program, one that makes an effort to pursue social equity in the form of access to education and health care to the disadvantaged in our society.
A government that ensures our natural resources aren't plundered by greedy multinationals or the tiny minority of the mega rich of this country.

I think my position is far more achievable than this notion that a small government, overseeing a free for all in the marketplace would somehow create the perfect form of governance for all.

[Egejska]

I'd much rather live in a 'socialist' Australia under an ALP government than the right wing US models of governance or the extreme conservatism of the British system which are the inspirations for the "Mad Monk" and his vision for Australia.

With all due respect Phoenix but the Liberal party offers nothing like that. In my view and I'm sure most Australians view both major parties as practically the same - policies wise.

And with your preference with socialism compared to fiscal conservatism, I honestly don't see what is wrong with a free market and a small government. I don't see what is wrong with making decisions for myself, you don't know whats best for me, nor does the government so why make it?

It's worrying that someone nowadays would rather live in a socialist society as opposed to a free society and the current "conservatives" in the US are just neoconservatives who portray themselves as small government loving conservatives but are actually big government people who support unconstitutional wars and spying on their citizens.