Johan Tarculovski is coming home!

[EgejskaMakedonia]

The dialogue is open, and very much still is, I was urging him not because I want him to stop but because he took his argument in a direction that will most likely end badly, wouldn't you agree?

He can carry on but I don't think he is doing himself or our history any favors.

The more he carries on he will either make our revolutionaries look like terrorists or make himself look like he wants to make them into terrorists.

I was trying to be friendly and extend him a way out.

That's the thing though Gocka, in today's world these kind of actions by VMRO would be construed as terrorist attacks. Yet through the eyes of those committing them and their supporters, they are interpreted as acts of freedom. That's why I say that there is a fine line between heroes and villains in some instances. But BBS and I have reaffirmed beyond doubt that we believe VMRO were heroes.

Again, I'm not trying to knock VMRO, but from a technical point of view blowing buildings and ships up is still a crime. Tarculovski committed a crime, but any actions from here out should be judged on their own accord. If we do not at least allow him to prove himself, then we are enforcing double standards.

[Gocka]

"Dimitar Mechev, Iliya Trachkov, and Milan Arsov, struck the railway between Thessaloniki and Istanbul, causing damage to the locomotive and some of the cars of a passing train WITHOUT WOUNDING ANY PASSENGERS"

Kostadin Kirkov who used explosives to shut off the electricity and water supply systems of the city.

They wanted to assassinate the sultan and governor. These people were directly part of the occupation and their struggle so in my opinion are free game and can’t be counted as bystanders or civilians.

I haven’t found an example yet where innocents were killed in an attack.

Do you really think this is comparable to Tarculovski? Do you still see them as the same thing? Come on mate.

[Gocka]

That's the thing though Gocka, in today's world these kind of actions by VMRO would be construed as terrorist attacks. Yet through the eyes of those committing them and their supporters, they are interpreted as acts of freedom. That's why I say that there is a fine line between heroes and villains in some instances. But BBS and I have reaffirmed beyond doubt that we believe VMRO were heroes.

Again, I'm not trying to knock VMRO, but from a technical point of view blowing buildings and ships up is still a crime. Tarculovski committed a crime, but any actions from here out should be judged on their own accord. If we do not at least allow him to prove himself, then we are enforcing double standards.

Why are we mixing crimes with crimes agianst humanity? VMRO were involved in terrorist attacks. They intended to cause terror in order to get attention but that doesn't mean they wanted to kill innocent people. In the Tarculovski we are talking about killing of innocents with no apparent goal in mind. VMRO had a definite plan and by the looks of it killing people was not part of it.

Besides you said it yourself "in today's world" You guys are purposely mixing apples and oranges to try and prove similarity Between Tarculovski and VMRO I think the lines are quite clear and not nearly as fine as you guys want them to be.

Terrorism doesn't mean killing people per se, you guys get that right? Terror/fear is an emotion, terrorism is meant to bring the emotion of terror. You can do that with out murder. They were terrorists but not in the way you are making them out to be.

[Gocka]

Stop trying to apply today's standards and laws with a time where skinning and beheading was common practice. What is so hard to understand that Tarculovski's crimes were with out a goal and were against people who had no effect on the outcome of the war and his actions had no effect on the outcome of the war.

At times the line can be fine but this was not one of those times.

Do you think VMRO just went into a Turkish settlement and took 3 Turks and shot them? That's what Tarculovksi did minus the Turk and + the albanian. What pisses me off is that I know you guys know its wrong, I know you know that VMRO and Tarculovski's actions are not comparable. I just cant understand why you keep pushing on when the deeper you dig the more wrong he is.

[Phoenix]

Stop trying to apply today's standards and laws with a time where skinning and beheading was common practice...

Gocka, what exactly are todays "standards".
The conflict in Macedonia was asymmetric, with shiptar terrorists regularly melting in and out of the civillian population.
The Macedonian's have always maintained that those killed in Ljuboten were terrorists, the international community held the opposite view...perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle?

Sure, Tarculovski was found guilty by the international community and thus any future political career or political association is untenable from the international perspective but domestically, whether right or wrong, the overwhelming number of Macedonian's believe he is innocent.

Stop demonizing the man, as if you know EXACTLY what happened on that day. He was found guilty, he served time in prison as punishment for his crime, which strangely enough is a relatively short time for the heinous act that you're subscribing to.

So once again, whether right or wrong the 'support' that Tarculovski enjoys amongst Macedonian's today is based on the assumption of innocence and the mistrust of the international community at the time and their role in Macedonia during the conflict.
That view (Tarculovski's innocence) existed and was widely promoted since day one by the government of Macedonia.

[George S.]

""The conflict in Macedonia was asymmetric, with shiptar terrorists regularly melting in and out of the civillian population.
The terorists were even seen riding in ministerial cars in downtown skopje..We are going through the same bs that were going through boskovski.Someone out there gave the orders to fire on civilians & blind freddy can tell you takingpotshots you would kill some civilians .One too many.I don't discount the stuation that the albanians would bullshitting& giving a false picture & them harboring combattans is not new as the local population of civilians supplied soldiers.Time will tell how innocent tarculovski is.

[Vangelovski]

Gocka, what exactly are todays "standards".
The conflict in Macedonia was asymmetric, with shiptar terrorists regularly melting in and out of the civillian population.
The Macedonian's have always maintained that those killed in Ljuboten were terrorists, the international community held the opposite view...perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle?

Sure, Tarculovski was found guilty by the international community and thus any future political career or political association is untenable from the international perspective but domestically, whether right or wrong, the overwhelming number of Macedonian's believe he is innocent.

Stop demonizing the man, as if you know EXACTLY what happened on that day. He was found guilty, he served time in prison as punishment for his crime, which strangely enough is a relatively short time for the heinous act that you're subscribing to.

So once again, whether right or wrong the 'support' that Tarculovski enjoys amongst Macedonian's today is based on the assumption of innocence and the mistrust of the international community at the time and their role in Macedonia during the conflict.
That view (Tarculovski's innocence) existed and was widely promoted since day one by the government of Macedonia.

Phoenix, there is an assumption of innocence until proven guilty. Just because it can be argued that the Tribunal is not legitimate and holds no jurisdiction over Tarculovski's case, it does not automatically mean that its finding is incorrect. I've been slowly going through the evidence and transcripts and I think that the evidence speaks for itself. I'd put to you the same question that I've put to Volk - if you disagree with the Tribunal's findings, then specify why and what in the evidence supports that view.

I would not simply dismiss Tarculovski's crime simply because he was tried by an international Tribunal. Macedonians need to get over this. While their own shit may not stink to them, its still shit. We need to raise our standards for our own sake, not the sake of anyone else. A criminal is a criminal and we don't need them in positions of authority and they certainly do not need to be glorified. We need trustworthy public officials who can be held accountable. This is what needs to change in Macedonia and its really a change in mentality more than any thing else.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, there is an assumption of innocence until proven guilty. Just because it can be argued that the Tribunal is not legitimate and holds no jurisdiction over Tarculovski's case, it does not automatically mean that its finding is incorrect. I've been slowly going through the evidence and transcripts and I think that the evidence speaks for itself. I'd put to you the same question that I've put to Volk - if you disagree with the Tribunal's findings, then specify why and what in the evidence supports that view.

I would not simply dismiss Tarculovski's crime simply because he was tried by an international Tribunal. Macedonians need to get over this. While their own shit may not stink to them, its still shit. We need to raise our standards for our own sake, not the sake of anyone else. A criminal is a criminal and we don't need them in positions of authority and they certainly do not need to be glorified. We need trustworthy public officials who can be held accountable. This is what needs to change in Macedonia and its really a change in mentality more than any thing else.

Vangelovski,
I'm not disputing the legitimacy of the court nor its findings.
I'm not a Tarculovski supporter, I don't believe there's any suitable public position that he could hold, unless he starts some anti-war movement(?)
What I'm trying to do is understand why so many in Macedonia look at him in a favorable light and I believe the answer in this can be found in the Macedonia of 2001.

During this time there are many well documented examples of anti-western sentiment by all levels of Macedonian society. I feel that much of that sentiment reverberates in this case still and is part of the answer as to why his support extends to many here on the MTO.

Like most war controversies, it's making your way through the 'fog' that's the real challenge.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski,
I'm not disputing the legitimacy of the court nor its findings.
I'm not a Tarculovski supporter, I don't believe there's any suitable public position that he could hold, unless he starts some anti-war movement(?)
What I'm trying to do is understand why so many in Macedonia look at him in a favorable light and I believe the answer in this can be found in the Macedonia of 2001.

During this time there are many well documented examples of anti-western sentiment by all levels of Macedonian society. I feel that much of that sentiment reverberates in this case still and is part of the answer as to why his support extends to many here on the MTO.

Like most war controversies, it's making your way through the 'fog' that's the real challenge.

I agree that anti-western sentiment is definately a part of the reason why some Macedonians see Tarculovski as a hero and refuse to even look at the available evidence.

I also think that another key problem is that morality within Macedonian society is the equivalent of a rotting corpse and because corruption (in all its forms) is so widespread and common, that people have either lost their moral compass or just don't really care. Some may think what's one more criminal pursuing his own interests and violating our rights - the place is already full of them. That's not exactly the kind of society that we really want for ourselves and not something we should encourage them to settle for either (not that you are doing this, I'm directing my comments to those that are).

[Gocka]

Gocka, what exactly are todays "standards".
The conflict in Macedonia was asymmetric, with shiptar terrorists regularly melting in and out of the civillian population.
The Macedonian's have always maintained that those killed in Ljuboten were terrorists, the international community held the opposite view...perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle?

Sure, Tarculovski was found guilty by the international community and thus any future political career or political association is untenable from the international perspective but domestically, whether right or wrong, the overwhelming number of Macedonian's believe he is innocent.

Stop demonizing the man, as if you know EXACTLY what happened on that day. He was found guilty, he served time in prison as punishment for his crime, which strangely enough is a relatively short time for the heinous act that you're subscribing to.

So once again, whether right or wrong the 'support' that Tarculovski enjoys amongst Macedonian's today is based on the assumption of innocence and the mistrust of the international community at the time and their role in Macedonia during the conflict.
That view (Tarculovski's innocence) existed and was widely promoted since day one by the government of Macedonia.

I am not demonizing him, what I am saying is plain and simple.

To date evidence was given that he is guilty, the evidence is pretty damning. No evidence has been provided by his supporters on here that proves his innocence to counter the evidence that proves his guilt, nor has any of the evidence that proves his guilt been disproved or discredited other than saying "the court is illegitimate" like a broken record.

So if there is no evidence of his innocence and there is nothing to disprove the evidence that makes him guilty then you must assume him guilty right?

If he has to be assumed guilty then his followers must be backing a guilty man yes or no?

Then not only is he guilty as far as we know but no examples have been given of him even doing anything patriotic or beneficial for Macedonia.

So that leaves us with what? A man that we think is guilty and who has yet to do anything positive for Macedonia. So then why the support? Why suggest him for some higher authority? Why him and not me or anyone else? That's the whole point.

Given everything above, would you say that the likes of Goce Delcev should be compared to Tarculovski? Isn't that a bit insulting to the people who dedicated and gave their lives for the cause?

I don't hate Tarculovski, he's free to do anything he wants in his life as long as its within the laws of the land. That doesn't mean he's a good candidate for public office or any position of power.

If one day it is revealed that he was innocent then maybe ill back him (I doubt that) if he proves hes worthy.

Anything you disagree with?

[Phoenix]

I am not demonizing him, what I am saying is plain and simple.

To date evidence was given that he is guilty, the evidence is pretty damning. No evidence has been provided by his supporters on here that proves his innocence to counter the evidence that proves his guilt, nor has any of the evidence that proves his guilt been disproved or discredited other than saying "the court is illegitimate" like a broken record.

So if there is no evidence of his innocence and there is nothing to disprove the evidence that makes him guilty then you must assume him guilty right?

If he has to be assumed guilty then his followers must be backing a guilty man yes or no?

Then not only is he guilty as far as we know but no examples have been given of him even doing anything patriotic or beneficial for Macedonia.

So that leaves us with what? A man that we think is guilty and who has yet to do anything positive for Macedonia. So then why the support? Why suggest him for some higher authority? Why him and not me or anyone else? That's the whole point.

Given everything above, would you say that the likes of Goce Delcev should be compared to Tarculovski? Isn't that a bit insulting to the people who dedicated and gave their lives for the cause?

I don't hate Tarculovski, he's free to do anything he wants in his life as long as its within the laws of the land. That doesn't mean he's a good candidate for public office or any position of power.

If one day it is revealed that he was innocent then maybe ill back him (I doubt that) if he proves hes worthy.

Anything you disagree with?

Gocka I think you're barking up the wrong tree.
I challenge you to find anything that supports your view that somehow I support Tarculovski or that I'm fighting to prove his innocence.

My interest is the psyche of the Macedonian people and the machinations that have created this groundswell of support for Tarculovski.
The role of gruevski and the party machine to this end and whether there's any serious efforts to place Tarculovski in any position of authority, which I highly doubt.

The rest is premature speculation...

[Soldier of Macedon]

I've been slowly going through the evidence and transcripts and I think that the evidence speaks for itself.

I am not going to claim being an expert on the Ljuboten case nor deny that certain unfortunate incidents appear to have taken place, but there are some questions (which may have been addressed in the other documents) I would have after reading through most of the amended indictment. For example, has it been confirmed that the persons killed were not involved with the NLA in one way or another? Why did some of them try to escape? Can it be said for certain that none of them were armed when all of this was taking place? Can it be confirmed that evidence was not tampered with after the fact? In one of the reports I read, I think it stated that a body was just left in the middle of the road. In another, a guy was shot as soon as he opened the door to his house. Did the police forces not know that the world was watching (or would soon be there to investigate), especially so late in the conflict?

Also, although indirectly related, and not to lessen the responsibility of certain Macedonians that may have caused unnecessary harm to others and their property, but how many ethnic Albanians were taken to trial for their part in cleansing regions and killing Macedonians during the conflict?

[DedoAleko]

[George S.]

how come you can prosecute macedonian combatants in the fight for establishing law /order soveregnity on one hand & pure terrorism in the other from albanians.Of course they provided terrorists amnesty from prosecution does not one smell a rat in the process.Can't one not defend their country in a war.?How much is it defence & actual crminal act of war.When in fact its the albanians are the ones who started the war,amongst some of the reasons of "rights".You got ridiculous claims that it was difficult proving who were the participants in the war.Who was NLA,who was uck.The fact is the NLA could quickly disband into the local population.Thus frustrating many searches by the military police.One thing that was apparent on attacks from ordinary albanians,that is ordinary civilians were doing their bit of aiding the restance.For example the use of personal mobile phones to inform the nla or uck fighters of where the enemy positions were.I think what transpired to stop the war & bring it to a halt with less casualties.Think about how many politicians caved in to all sort of suggestions to to stop the war .Amestry & immunity from prosectuion was one of them.

[Macedonian_Nationalist]

Is that a Pitu Guli style hat?