Alarming political precursors in ROM

[Gocka]

Recently I have become very worried about some of the rhetoric coming out of ROM. It has left a bad taste of Deja Vu in my mouth. Let me start by clarifying that I do not support any of the main political parties in ROM but it is quite obvious what SDSM is attempting to do. It smacks of the recent turmoil in the middle east. Claim your opponent is an oppressive dictator, cry to the west and get the green light to cause chaos.

Recently Branko Crvenko said Gruevski is like Milosevic, now I don't like nor do I agree with many of Gruevski's policies but a dictator? I think not, and as far as I can see we are still more democratic than most of our neighbors so these accusations that somehow democracy is being crushed is laughable.

In all seriousness though, it is not funny it is very worrying. I almost feel like any day now I will turn on CNN and here how oppressive Gruevski is and that he must be stopped! That would be the end of ROM and we will become like some middle eastern crap hole.

I don't know everyone I feel like SDSM is playing a very dangerous game just so they can get back in power. I pray to god that I am wrong.

Just a side note, I'm am not inferring that the down fall of Gruevski will be the end of ROM but rather the means by which I think SDSM will try to bring about his down fall.

[Big Bad Sven]

Im no Gruevski supporter but i do find it funny how western media reffer to gruevski as a 'nationalist' and his party as 'nationalist' LOLOLOL

It doesnt help when the shiptars are harping about how they are repressed and dont have their rights respected. It would be good to see some macedonians counter this with facts and spread the truth

[Gocka]

In October 2012, the European Commission gave green light to Macedonia for the fourth time in a row to start the EU accession negotiations, still blocked by a Greek veto. But what is the real state of democracy in the country? Our correspondent takes us on a personal reflection on indicators rarely taken into account


In mid-October the European Commission (EC), for the fourth time, gave the recommendation to start accession talks with Macedonia. According to the EC, Skopje has continued to make progress with democratic reforms. When the Commission's annual progress report was issued, some experts cynically commented that if the country deserved EU candidate status at present, then it should have been a full-fledged member several years ago.

Assessments of democratic reforms – among which the EC reports are some of the most credible - cannot always accurately measure the complexity of social and political change. Some changes may not be immediately evident or quantified with numbers and data as the numerous ratings systems attempt to do. The EC report, however, is a qualitative one. Sometimes it analyzes the indicators that other rating systems use.

The World Bank's Doing Business reports, for example, regularly praise Skopje for its reforms. They do it on the basis of a set of indicators that are used as broad measures of progress in different countries. Why then do foreign investors largely avoid Macedonia, and why are local media flooded with coverage of the problems small businesses suffer on account of the volatile economic environment? Other assessments only gradually raised or lowered their ratings of Macedonia at the end of the year, despite recent turbulent changes in the country. Other assessments, such as the EC one, are strongly influenced by politics.

It is perhaps a good exercise to consider indicators of social and political change that mainstream reports do not usually consider. A lot has been written about the state of Macedonian democracy in recent years. Whereas Brussels says it is on track, Washington is not so convinced.

One indicator that likely won’t be used by mainstream sources and yet tells so much about the state of democracy in Macedonia is the “number of interviews top government officials give to pro-regime journalists”. Some ten years ago the number would have likely been zero. Today it is, for lack of precise data, quite high. Government ministers are regular (several times a week) guests on the shows of select pro-government journalists. The fact that journalists can be “pro-government” is not the point. There are many of those everywhere. The problem is how much the public is aware of the fact. The indicator can also be inverted. Today, the “number of interviews by top government officials given to serious journalists” is much closer to zero than ten years ago.
Another indicator that can measure the quality of political dialogue in the country (the lack of which has indeed been mentioned in the EC reports) is the “number of publicly televised open debates between political leaders”. Ten, even 15 years ago, that number was substantial; today it is almost zilch.

These indicators may be unconventional. But if one chooses to look into more regular ones such as “the number of independent media,” whereby “independent” is taken to mean both from government or opposition political parties and from private business interests, the decline is also visible. Another indicator recently discussed by the public was “the number of independent TV political shows canceled in the last two years.” That number is significant, and it is rising.

What goes on in the public domain and in or with the media is of course the easiest to see. Less visible changes can go unobserved. For example, the day-to-day work of the judiciary goes largely unreported. An indicator such as the “number of independent judges” is very difficult to assess.

What can be taken as a kind of proxy, however, is “the number of indictments and cases against political opponents.” A poor farmer from Bitola was dragged through the courts for a couple of years (until acquitted last week) on false marijuana-growing charges: so-called wild hemp was growing on his land same as all over the region. What distinguished him from other farmers was that, embittered by being scammed in a big dairy scandal, he was a vocal government critic.

An even higher-profile political opponent, former minister and Hague detainee, Ljube Boshkovski, is in prison, having been sentenced on a really peculiar charge: illegal campaign financing. Brother Ljube, as he is known, is a controversial figure, but the case against him was ironic. Even the birds in the trees know that campaign financing in Macedonia is, to put it mildly, a gray area.

Mundane things of concern to the everyday lives of private citizens can sometimes be important indicators of social change. Some that are not likely to be found in most rankings, yet are vital to the ordinary person, include the “number of traffic violation fines per 1,000 drivers” (issued annually, monthly, or even daily), as well as the “average traffic violation fine in relation to the average net salary.” The latter is easy to check and it will show that, in real terms, Macedonian citizens have been subject to draconian fines in recent years. That is not because they are lousy drivers, but because the Macedonian government has turned , especially under the pressure of the tight budget, into a collector of “arach” (A Turkish word, from Ottoman times, denoting excessive, rootless taxation).

This is again just a sample illustration of a broader trend of “penalization” in Macedonian society promoted by the current government. Fines for all types of misdemeanors have exploded. In addition, many civil offenses have been turned into criminal ones (many tax violations, copyright violations, etc.), the most recent example being electricity theft (usually perpetrated by the poorest). Fines for businesses, especially small ones, are completely disproportional to economic reality. Most of them do not distinguish between huge corporations and “mom and pop” corner stores.

A more general indicator of social changes forced on Macedonian society could be the “number of restrictions on things that were previously unrestricted.” Examples include the working hours of bars, stores' sale of alcohol after 8:00 pm, parking, and air-drying laundry on balconies. These restrictions may be accepted in many other countries where they have emerged through a process of debate, but most of them came as a shock to the Macedonian public. They have been instituted in a manner that is top-down, without any discussion, contrary to tradition.
Some of these changes have, without a doubt, produced order. The government says that fiscal discipline has significantly improved. This is probably true. Parking in the capital is much more orderly than before. Municipalities were zealous to regulate it, discovering the revenue it generates for them. They have not been as motivated to collect garbage from the streets, however: it does not pay as well. That is one similarity shared by most of Macedonia's recent changes: restrictions are piling up, but only for the citizens.

Lastly, there is a set of indicators pertaining to cultural change and issues that have long been considered closed in Macedonia. One such issue is abortion. It is, without a doubt, an important issue in many cultures, but in Macedonia (and other ex-Yugoslav countries) it has been a non-issue since the creation of Tito's Yugoslavia. Now, judging by the indicator the “number of government sponsored pro-life TV ads”, the issue is clearly being revived.

Another similar indicator of cultural shifts could be the “amount of government-promoted Christian piousness.” This is evident in new government-sponsored projects such as religious education, churches on the central square in the capital, and so forth. Again, in other countries, this is a matter of tradition. But in Macedonia it has been done in opposition to tradition and has caused fissures in inter-religious and intra-religious relations, and in the social fabric overall.

The meaning of “progress” depends on which indicators are used as the basis for assessment. Critics would argue that the indicators reviewed in this article are chosen selectively and, perhaps, that their interpretation is biased. That may well be the case. It could also be that other indicators show Macedonia is making remarkable progress. However, it is difficult to make the case that a country has a great environment for doing business (based on a set of World Bank indicators), when its unemployment (estimated to be 32 %) is the highest in Europe and among the highest in the world.

The argument could also be made that countries can indeed make economic reforms while stagnating or backsliding democratically (Chile and South Korea in the past, Cambodia today, etc.). However, Macedonia has not yet shown economic progress based on indicators that would make sense, such as the number of real new jobs (not in public administration, and not existing jobs which are statistically “discovered”).

http://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Regions-and-countries/Macedonia/Macedonia-s-state-of-democracy-128500

Where the hell do I start These kind of articles are becoming way to common for my taste. Maybe I am just paranoid but something does not sit well with me.

[Gocka]

In October 2012, the European Commission gave green light to Macedonia for the fourth time in a row to start the EU accession negotiations, still blocked by a Greek veto. But what is the real state of democracy in the country? Our correspondent takes us on a personal reflection on indicators rarely taken into account

Clearing Implying that the state of democracy is not good.

In mid-October the European Commission (EC), for the fourth time, gave the recommendation to start accession talks with Macedonia. According to the EC, Skopje has continued to make progress with democratic reforms. When the Commission's annual progress report was issued, some experts cynically commented that if the country deserved EU candidate status at present, then it should have been a full-fledged member several years ago.


Assessments of democratic reforms – among which the EC reports are some of the most credible - cannot always accurately measure the complexity of social and political change. Some changes may not be immediately evident or quantified with numbers and data as the numerous ratings systems attempt to do. The EC report, however, is a qualitative one. Sometimes it analyzes the indicators that other rating systems use.



The World Bank's Doing Business reports, for example, regularly praise Skopje for its reforms. They do it on the basis of a set of indicators that are used as broad measures of progress in different countries. Why then do foreign investors largely avoid Macedonia, and why are local media flooded with coverage of the problems small businesses suffer on account of the volatile economic environment? Other assessments only gradually raised or lowered their ratings of Macedonia at the end of the year, despite recent turbulent changes in the country. Other assessments, such as the EC one, are strongly influenced by politics.



It is perhaps a good exercise to consider indicators of social and political change that mainstream reports do not usually consider. A lot has been written about the state of Macedonian democracy in recent years. Whereas Brussels says it is on track, Washington is not so convinced.

Alot has been written? where by who? Ive only read positive things up until now.

One indicator that likely won’t be used by mainstream sources and yet tells so much about the state of democracy in Macedonia is the “number of interviews top government officials give to pro-regime journalists”. Some ten years ago the number would have likely been zero. Today it is, for lack of precise data, quite high. Government ministers are regular (several times a week) guests on the shows of select pro-government journalists. The fact that journalists can be “pro-government” is not the point. There are many of those everywhere. The problem is how much the public is aware of the fact. The indicator can also be inverted. Today, the “number of interviews by top government officials given to serious journalists” is much closer to zero than ten years ago.
Another indicator that can measure the quality of political dialogue in the country (the lack of which has indeed been mentioned in the EC reports) is the “number of publicly televised open debates between political leaders”. Ten, even 15 years ago, that number was substantial; today it is almost zilch.

I don't agree that this is true but even it is was its not like they have been throwing journalists in jail like in the middle east. This "situation" was not brought on by force. In the USA don't democrats only give interviews to news channels that support them and so do the republicans.

These indicators may be unconventional. But if one chooses to look into more regular ones such as “the number of independent media,” whereby “independent” is taken to mean both from government or opposition political parties and from private business interests, the decline is also visible. Another indicator recently discussed by the public was “the number of independent TV political shows canceled in the last two years.” That number is significant, and it is rising.

So because some shows became unpopular or stopped for what ever reason this means we have a weak democracy?

What goes on in the public domain and in or with the media is of course the easiest to see. Less visible changes can go unobserved. For example, the day-to-day work of the judiciary goes largely unreported. An indicator such as the “number of independent judges” is very difficult to assess.

What can be taken as a kind of proxy, however, is “the number of indictments and cases against political opponents.” A poor farmer from Bitola was dragged through the courts for a couple of years (until acquitted last week) on false marijuana-growing charges: so-called wild hemp was growing on his land same as all over the region. What distinguished him from other farmers was that, embittered by being scammed in a big dairy scandal, he was a vocal government critic.

A farmer? a dangerous anti government opposition? This has to be a joke. So the government went after a farmer as one of their first political targets.

An even higher-profile political opponent, former minister and Hague detainee, Ljube Boshkovski, is in prison, having been sentenced on a really peculiar charge: illegal campaign financing. Brother Ljube, as he is known, is a controversial figure, but the case against him was ironic. Even the birds in the trees know that campaign financing in Macedonia is, to put it mildly, a gray area.

Mundane things of concern to the everyday lives of private citizens can sometimes be important indicators of social change. Some that are not likely to be found in most rankings, yet are vital to the ordinary person, include the “number of traffic violation fines per 1,000 drivers” (issued annually, monthly, or even daily), as well as the “average traffic violation fine in relation to the average net salary.” The latter is easy to check and it will show that, in real terms, Macedonian citizens have been subject to draconian fines in recent years. That is not because they are lousy drivers, but because the Macedonian government has turned , especially under the pressure of the tight budget, into a collector of “arach” (A Turkish word, from Ottoman times, denoting excessive, rootless taxation).

Tax collection? If this is an indicator of oppression then the USA is #1 in the world in oppression of its people. Macedonia had one of the worst tax collections in all of Europe and it had absolutely no rule of law. It still doesn't have a strong rule of law and not nearly enough laws or tax collection. Who the hell is writing this crap?

This is again just a sample illustration of a broader trend of “penalization” in Macedonian society promoted by the current government. Fines for all types of misdemeanors have exploded. In addition, many civil offenses have been turned into criminal ones (many tax violations, copyright violations, etc.), the most recent example being electricity theft (usually perpetrated by the poorest). Fines for businesses, especially small ones, are completely disproportional to economic reality. Most of them do not distinguish between huge corporations and “mom and pop” corner stores.

Sigh, this is getting stupid at best. How corrupt was Macedonia 10 15 years ago? Theft and cheating the system were a way of life. Trying to go against that is somehow a bad omen of reduction of democracy?

A more general indicator of social changes forced on Macedonian society could be the “number of restrictions on things that were previously unrestricted.” Examples include the working hours of bars, stores' sale of alcohol after 8:00 pm, parking, and air-drying laundry on balconies. These restrictions may be accepted in many other countries where they have emerged through a process of debate, but most of them came as a shock to the Macedonian public. They have been instituted in a manner that is top-down, without any discussion, contrary to tradition.
Some of these changes have, without a doubt, produced order. The government says that fiscal discipline has significantly improved. This is probably true. Parking in the capital is much more orderly than before. Municipalities were zealous to regulate it, discovering the revenue it generates for them. They have not been as motivated to collect garbage from the streets, however: it does not pay as well. That is one similarity shared by most of Macedonia's recent changes: restrictions are piling up, but only for the citizens.

Restrictions? Like in the USA where farting is probably illegal and punishable with a fine? Where everything is a criminal offense and holds jail time? Unlike in Macedonia people in the USA actually go to jail, sometimes for a long time for petty crimes. One of the few things about ROM that appeals to people is the fact that people are unrestricted in their daily lives. Most tourists say that is one of their favorite parts of ROM. If Macedonians are restricted then other countries have slavery.

Lastly, there is a set of indicators pertaining to cultural change and issues that have long been considered closed in Macedonia. One such issue is abortion. It is, without a doubt, an important issue in many cultures, but in Macedonia (and other ex-Yugoslav countries) it has been a non-issue since the creation of Tito's Yugoslavia. Now, judging by the indicator the “number of government sponsored pro-life TV ads”, the issue is clearly being revived.

Hmm a pro life stance means tyranny. So in the USA where an entire political party is categorically pro life, even though it would encroach on the constitution of the USA: that is fine? That means the USA has a strong democracy but the same thing for us means our is weak. Makes total sense.

Another similar indicator of cultural shifts could be the “amount of government-promoted Christian piousness.” This is evident in new government-sponsored projects such as religious education, churches on the central square in the capital, and so forth. Again, in other countries, this is a matter of tradition. But in Macedonia it has been done in opposition to tradition and has caused fissures in inter-religious and intra-religious relations, and in the social fabric overall.

We have always been one of the most religious countries in the world if not the most religious in Europe. So why is this being portrayed as a shift toward religion? If anything Macedonia has started going away from religion.

The meaning of “progress” depends on which indicators are used as the basis for assessment. Critics would argue that the indicators reviewed in this article are chosen selectively and, perhaps, that their interpretation is biased. That may well be the case. It could also be that other indicators show Macedonia is making remarkable progress. However, it is difficult to make the case that a country has a great environment for doing business (based on a set of World Bank indicators), when its unemployment (estimated to be 32 %) is the highest in Europe and among the highest in the world.

So basically the author chooses which indicators mean the country is progressing. Even if half the reasons he gave for anti progress were blatant lies.

The argument could also be made that countries can indeed make economic reforms while stagnating or backsliding democratically (Chile and South Korea in the past, Cambodia today, etc.). However, Macedonia has not yet shown economic progress based on indicators that would make sense, such as the number of real new jobs (not in public administration, and not existing jobs which are statistically “discovered”).

http://www.balcanicaucaso.org/eng/Regions-and-countries/Macedonia/Macedonia-s-state-of-democracy-128500

Where the hell do I start These kind of articles are becoming way to common for my taste. Maybe I am just paranoid but something does not sit well with me.

Summary:

We are being oppressed, restricted,

our journalists are slowly being replaced with only pro government cronies.

Shows are being taken off the air

We are becoming religious extremists

We are silencing farmers.

Fines for spitting or littering are being used to keep people quiet.

Wow my eyes have been opened quick send the US army to rectify the situation and restore democracy.

[Gocka]

http://www.groundreport.com/Politics/What-happens-in-Macedonia/2950742

Here is another example from today.

[George S.]

macedobia needs to see first hand how westerb economies operate.

[sydney]

dictatorship will be healthy for macedonia. it has already started in some sense. maybe macedonians will then wake up and want to make the country great (by any means necessary).

[Gocka]

dictatorship will be healthy for macedonia. it has already started in some sense. maybe macedonians will then wake up and want to make the country great (by any means necessary).

I understand the sentiment, at times in anger I say the same thing (that we need a dictator) although surely you are also having a laugh right? No one needs a dictator, the phrase careful what you wish for comes to mind. Also have you been to Macedonia? It's laughable to say it has started, in ROM we have one of the most wild, uninterested, uncaring, free living, lazy, and care free people in the world. Some stricter more western laws are introduced and that means we are moving toward a dictatorship? I think that downplays real dictatorships which are quite oppressive and suppress real progress.

Anyway what I was getting at is I don't want to see ROM portrayed as an undemocratic dictatorship and have foreign soldiers come in and "liberate" us as this seems to be in fashion these days.

[Risto the Great]

Summary:

We are being oppressed, restricted,

our journalists are slowly being replaced with only pro government cronies.

Shows are being taken off the air

We are becoming religious extremists

We are silencing farmers.

Fines for spitting or littering are being used to keep people quiet.

Wow my eyes have been opened quick send the US army to rectify the situation and restore democracy.

Yes. Interesting summary. Macedonia needs help urgently

But anyway, where do they get off talking about Macedonia's high unemployment rate when the cradle of democracy down south is only a few percentage points different! Sick of this stuff.

[Gocka]

Yes. Interesting summary. Macedonia needs help urgently

But anyway, where do they get off talking about Macedonia's high unemployment rate when the cradle of democracy down south is only a few percentage points different! Sick of this stuff.

Clearly these articles coming out are attempts to destabilize the situation and either open the door for foreign intervention or cause dysfunction from within to keep people divided. What I can't put my finger on is who is bank rolling these negative articles, US, greece, bulgaria, albanians, sdsm? No matter who it is you must stop and worry just a bit when words like dictator, oppression, silencing are used in mass media. I don't like it at all.

As much as I dislike Gruevski he has united the majority of Macedonians to some degree. From what I can see there is a higher sense of nationalism and focus on history and culture that was not there before. He is surely not the answer to our problems but maybe by accident he is bringing about some sort of unity among us which is the first step that we need. Maybe that is why these types of articles are coming out? Certain groups are afraid that if we are unified that we may actually do something right for a change. Think about it, history is at the forefront out in the open like never before, and much more people in ROM actually care about our history, nowhere near the amount of people that should care but surely more than the past 2 decades. I truly think that all our opponents would much rather see sdsm in power rather than vmro.
Interesting and scary times for ROM, the next 5 years will decide the next 50 for ROM. Either we will come out stronger than ever or disappear never to return again.

[Gocka]

So I did some digging to find out more about this website groundreport.com where a lot of negative articles originate about ROM particularly about Gruevski. I assumed at first it must be sdsm because every article seemed to take a negative spin on Gruevski no matter what; now I'm not so sure. This is what I found:

The website has world news but a lot of focus seems to be on the middle east.

The reporters appear to be local reporters that write for this site.

Most of the reporters seem to have muslim/middle eastern names

The reporter that writes about ROM exclusively is Salam Burdu, right away I thought albaian from the balkans, but it seems he is not.

Salam Burdu has a profile on google+ where he states to be the CEO of Council for Salvation, a quote from his profile "CEO of the organization 'Council for Salvation". Organization which is targeting on wipe out the non humanic regimes over the world."

He is not born in the west because the quote is grammatically incorrect and is said in a way to indicate his first language can not be English.

You do not even have to look that far into it, in fact plastered as the background of his profile is 2 flags, a bulgarian and a Qatari flag. Now I find this a little strange. I don't see the connection but he has lived in Sofia and Doha, including London, New York, Moscow, Istanbul, and Terran. Again this is according to his profile. Sofia being the only Balkan city he has lived in but he currently lives in Doha (Qatar).

Clearly he is either bulgarian or Qatari or maybe half and half, he is clearly Muslim as well by the name.

In all his articles he is anti Macedonian anti Gruevski, seemingly pro sdsm or maybe by it is by default by being anti Gruevski. He does seem pro bulgarian and pro albanian. He seems neutral toward the rest of the Balkans.

He only started writing 2 months ago and the majority of his articles are split between ROM and bulgaria, with a majority to ROM.

All his articles try to portray Macedonia as in a state of crisis on the verge of war or collapse. He does have affection for bulgaria but is very pro Muslim, which I don't get, how you can be heavily pro Muslim and still very pro bulgarian since bulgarians don't exactly like their Muslim countrymen.

Most baffling is the Qatar connection I know the Albanians get a lot of funding from Qatar for Islamist groups and for building of mosques. I'm assuming the Muslims in Bulgaria must get the same but why such hate for ROM. We are the least oppressive to Muslims in the Balkans especially less than bulgaria.

The only angle I can come up with is that the guy has a fixation on "oppressive regimes" and has labeled Gruevski as such thus the negative spin on everything.

His profile https://plus.google.com/108984815621303154277
/about
Any thoughts?

[George S.]

How much faith should we put into his articles if his views are biased & twisted in a particular way.He doesn't have first hand evidence & it must be fed by his contacts.What kind of view did you expect with views like that he isn't pro macedonian.

[Gocka]

How much faith should we put into his articles if his views are biased & twisted in a particular way.He doesn't have first hand evidence & it must be fed by his contacts.What kind of view did you expect with views like that he isn't pro macedonian.

George, its not that I expect anything, simply reading his articles will tell you more then you need to know in order to make a decision about his prejudices.

You have to look at the big picture, the 21st century is all about PR. When you get bad PR you need to be concerned. Then you need ask why are you getting bad PR. In this case the PR is laden with lies and half truths with a clear agenda. Then you need to ask in whose interest is this bad PR.

What I'm getting at is, if you can identify all your adversaries and their intentions/motivations/interest's you will be much better equipped to prepare/defend/attack. PR is war, fought with words instead of guns, there are winners and losers and trust that PR wars can be just as dangerous and damaging as real war.

In this case the intentions are clear (Make ROM look unstable / make Gruevski look like a dictator instead of a sellout which he probably is/ portray Macedonians as the aggressors / cast a negative light on ROM overall)

The motivation is also easy to see, although not as clear as his intention. The motivation (He clearly shares some kind of bond with bulgaria and Qatar / has a soft spot for Muslims / dislikes oppressive regimes.

Now as to whose interest is it in. He seems to be much more Muslim biased then bulgarian biased but he has a special dislike for Macedonians. He has not once criticized or shown contempt for the treatment of Muslims in other Balkan countries but for some reason singles ROM out with passion.

Albanians and Greeks despise us, Bulgarians and Serbs look down on us. He sounds like an albanian but then why the bulgarian and Qatar flags.

There are two main reasons I am concerned.

1- the Qatar connection, We know Qatar is funding Balkan Islamist but this was more out of love for Islam then hate against us. If the Qatar connection turns into something more then just pro Islam that is worrying because that is a whole new player in the game and a wealthy one at that who can finance almost anything. Funding Islamist is bad enough but having some kind of disdain for us or our nation is much worse

2- PR game, this is just one journalist but the site ground report that he writes for seems to have some clout lately. All of this guys articles were on the top search results for Macedonia/Balkan/etcon Google news for days. So his articles are getting prime placement which is not good because I have not seen anything to counter it.

We must be more vigilant and see things coming earlier so we can at least attempt to deal with them. We don't want to get caught off guard like the Serbs and wake up one day with the world labeling us genocidal monsters and wondering what happened. These things happen slower then you think and get built up before they go to the masses.

[George S.]

looks like his mind is made up as he is allready persuaded by either bulgarians etc & others who are our real enemies.So this guy doesn't know not only the whole picture about macedonia but the real picture of macedonia.My comment is to stay away frm people like that who have been brainwashed by propaganda.He has become a puppet for their pr.

[momce]

This seems like the slow encroachment of neo-Ottoman islamic forces in the Balkan. Odd most of this stuff is supported by the Anglo-Islamic axis over continental Europe. Biggest mistake was allowing NATO into Macedonia. We seem to forget that all these issues are overridden by the massive power of global corporate capitalism and its ability to destroy, recylcle and fabricate new realities at will and make us all into human waste material. Maybe its better we all settle our differences in the region and prepare for the real onslaught from both West and East.