Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Vangelovski]

But the clever Macedonians will beg to differ. Just like when they refused to accept "FYROM" but insisted on the full Former Yugoslav Republic of Monkeys. They are so clever, they will find a solution inside their own minds.

Kinda like this

[Risto the Great]

But the clever Macedonians will beg to differ. Just like when they refused to accept "FYROM" but insisted on the full Former Yugoslav Republic of Monkeys. They are so clever, they will find a solution inside their own minds.

[Vangelovski]

For 3 decades we had to fight the term 'slav Macedonian'. Now its going to be North Macedonian. Except now they can just point to the Prespes (not Prespa?) Agreement and our constitution and day this is what you chose.

https://www.neweurope.eu/article/welcome-north-macedonia/

[YuriB]

Yep, I meant Macedonians of Greece (or Aegean Macedonians) , ie, people with Macedonian self-determination and a Greek passport. Of course, after 30 years of this stuff, one has to be careful on correct naming.

Greece never collects ethnicity data, only nationality. It's the trick that circumvents the "problem". Many Greeks can't tell the difference between the two.. I've met a few of these "non-existent" people myself. It's not that hard for other Greeks (if they move beyond the craziness) to find some too. (This last bit was for any Greeks reading it: Be kind and let people open up)

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't know if the Macedonian government or diaspora could do much for them at this point. The Greek government perceive it as interference and react even worse.

They perceive it as interference because they have something to hide. I doubt New Zealand considers it interference when Greece supports the cultural activities of Greeks in that country. Macedonia officially acknowledges the existence of self-declared Greeks in its national census. Greece doesn't do the same because there are way more Macedonians there. It just doesn't fit with their narrative and myth that my people don't exist in that wretched hole. No offence to you personally, but after so many years of reading and watching Greek racism towards Macedonians I can't always be bothered qualifying all of my negative statements against Greece or Greeks. Just take it as a given that they're not meant to be generalisations and I know that there are some good Greeks as far as the Macedonian issue is concerned.

There is no good solution other than more Greek people being exposed to Macedonian Greeks and realizing they are indeed real and just human beings who want to live their lives, speak their language and keep their customs.

If by "Macedonian Greeks" you're referring to the Macedonians of Greece (or Aegean Macedonians), then call them as per the latter to avoid any misunderstandings. If the Balkan region was normal, one could refer to Macedonian Greeks (Macedonians from Greece) and Greek Macedonians (Greeks from the Macedonian Republic) or vice versa like they do in most other countries, but nothing is normal in the Balkans, and sensitivities in relation to such terminology transcends semantics. I am sure you can appreciate our position.

[YuriB]

You're assuming the agreement affords the luxury of logic. The Greek government dug Macedonia's grave by forcing the latter's idiot politicians to officially sign away the formal right to claim our rightful heritage and our kinship with the Macedonians in southern Macedonia.

You are correct. The problem was the difference in power (aka realism). Misguided if you ask me..

The Macedonians in southern Macedonia (or northern Greece) have unfortunately been stigmatized and pushed to the point of self-deletion. There was this guy from north Greece in the army whose last name was Grouios. When I suggested he might be related to the Prime Minister back then Grouevski, he was shocked and started vehemently denying it (I had just suggested it in a nice manner but his disportional reaction made me realize the pressure he and his family probably went through)

I don't know if the Macedonian government or diaspora could do much for them at this point. The Greek government perceive it as interference and react even worse.. There is no good solution other than more Greek people being exposed to Macedonian Greeks and realizing they are indeed real and just human beings who want to live their lives, speak their language and keep their customs.

[YuriB]

Unfortunately the Greeks that were previously on this forum have essentially ruined any instant goodwill or trust for new members of the same ethnic group, which means you have to do a little extra to earn it, hence the questions. And here are my final questions for now, which country are you writing from and what's with the Russian email?

Agreed! I'm happy to be acquainted. I am probably not a good Greek specimen though! Haha

I created a new email account to protect my anonymity (I googled free email account and that website came up, didn't know it was Russian).

The country is New Zealand! Hence my kiwi avatar, which is actually not showing yet. And yes, kiwi is the bird (or the people), not the fruit and we are rather picky on that! Haha

[Soldier of Macedon]

Ironically, it might be that the Greek government dug its own grave with this deal. Acknowledging that a) there exists a Macedonian language (and thus, people) and b) there is a country called North Macedonia, it follows logically that c) there is a region called South Macedonia (in Greece) that contains (or at least contained) Macedonian people.

You're assuming the agreement affords the luxury of logic. The Greek government dug Macedonia's grave by forcing the latter's idiot politicians to officially sign away the formal right to claim our rightful heritage and our kinship with the Macedonians in southern Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Article 2 of the Prespa Agreement.

URL:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/resources/article-files/aggliko-1.pdf

So, according to the agreement, Greece agrees not to object to the accession of Macedonia (as Northern Macedonia) into NATO and the EU. Nor are they to object to the terminology used in Article 1(3) which refers to the Macedonian language. Seems straight forward. But in Article 7(2) Greece has basically claimed the ethnic Macedonians in that country as their own. In Article 7(3), Macedonia basically disowns those same ethnic Macedonians by drawing a distinction between the heritage and culture of the republic to that of our kinsmen south of the border. Perhaps Goce Delcev and our other heroes are also part of "Greek heritage" with this disastrous agreement. So the previous question I asked still stands, will ethnic Macedonians in Greece be allowed to identify themselves and their language as Macedonian? According to the 'spirit' of the agreement, such people don't exist. And the stupidity of the Bulgars is yet to surface. Their demands will no doubt be just as demeaning.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I understand your skepticism. I normally don't discuss my opinions about Macedonians with Greeks; it turns really sour...

I actually picked my username based on the name of my Economics prof during grad school. It was the last course I took.

Unfortunately the Greeks that were previously on this forum have essentially ruined any instant goodwill or trust for new members of the same ethnic group, which means you have to do a little extra to earn it, hence the questions. And here are my final questions for now, which country are you writing from and what's with the Russian email?

[Solun]

https://twitter.com/DimitarBechev/st...15632567754752






Tsipras was born 28 July 1974 in Athens. His mother's family has its roots in a village near Babaeski in an area of Eastern Thrace which was transferred from Turkey to Greece during the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey. His father, Pavlos, was from Epirus and was a contractor of big public works.

URL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Tsipras

Wikipedia, particularly around Macedonian issues, is of course questionable.

I heard an eminent Albanian historian from Macedonia once state that Tsipras mother is from a Macedonian speaking village. Now I note wiki states the Turkish name of the village was: Pravishte
Doesn't sound Turkish to me

[Risto the Great]

Sounds good. No worries.

[YuriB]

You might be sincere. Not all Greeks are completely mad and irrational. Your choice of a slavic sounding name is curious though and suggests a contrived angle to assist with gaining access to posting privileges on the forum. But that's fine. Good start.

I understand your skepticism. I normally don't discuss my opinions about Macedonians with Greeks; it turns really sour...

I actually picked my username based on the name of my Economics prof during grad school. It was the last course I took.

[YuriB]

Welcome to the forum.

Many have suffered from those policies, some more than others.

So what lead you to open an account on this forum, what interests you?

Thank you! I hope I'm not diverting the discussion. I've been following this forum over the last 10 years or so. Given the recent significant developments, I thought it was hightime I joined.

Good question regarding my motivation! I guess, I'd like to show to any Greek (and Macedonian) readers of the forum that one can have a Greek decent while not being a dick to Macedonians (both inside and outside Greece).

Btw, I served with a Macedonian friend in the Greek army and learned a few words in Makethonika (aka Ntopia) like spolaiti.

[Risto the Great]

To the best of my knowledge, I only have a Greek ethnic background. Regardless, I believe in multiculturalism and I don't agree with how the mainstream Greek culture forces assimilation on anyone who deviates from the "norm". The Macedonian people have suffered from these policies.

You might be sincere. Not all Greeks are completely mad and irrational. Your choice of a slavic sounding name is curious though and suggests a contrived angle to assist with gaining access to posting privileges on the forum. But that's fine. Good start.