"Macedo-Bulgarians"

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

    #16
    Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
    Does anyone have a link to where I can read Verković's Народне песме Македонски Бугара in its entirety? I am assuming Mr Gurther got their source off Macedonian Wikipedia, which does not provide a page number.
    Here:

    Comment

    • Liberator of Makedonija
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 1597

      #17
      Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
      Surely it would have to do with church affiliations/influences. North of Macedonia was the Serbian Orthodox Church which was completely revived in 1879.
      Perhaps. I do remember in one of these threads someone providng a source that stated the existence of "Bulgars" in Belgrade so maybe the term was once common.
      I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

      Comment

      • Liberator of Makedonija
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2014
        • 1597

        #18
        Thank you for this Carlin.
        I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15660

          #19
          Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija View Post
          Perhaps. I do remember in one of these threads someone providng a source that stated the existence of "Bulgars" in Belgrade so maybe the term was once common.
          Let's not forget the Serbs calling themselves Greeks also.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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          • Mr Gurther
            Junior Member
            • Mar 2023
            • 8

            #20
            Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
            Let's not forget the Serbs calling themselves Greeks also.
            a lot of people in the ottoman empire called themselves whatever, in greece during the early 19 century almost more then half the population of Greece considered themselves as Albanians.

            Comment

            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              #21
              Originally posted by Mr Gurther View Post
              a lot of people in the ottoman empire called themselves whatever, in greece during the early 19 century almost more then half the population of Greece considered themselves as Albanians.
              During the Ottoman times Christian Orthodox Albanians most likely considered themselves just Orthodox Christians, and perhaps "Romaioi" (members of the Rum millet).

              Comment

              • Liberator of Makedonija
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2014
                • 1597

                #22
                Yes, I echo Carlin here. It is not that the population of Greece (proper) considered themselves Albanian, it is that many of them spoke Arvanitic, an Albanian language. That is not the same as identifying as Albanian.
                I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

                Comment

                • Karposh
                  Member
                  • Aug 2015
                  • 863

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Mr Gurther View Post
                  a lot of people in the ottoman empire called themselves whatever, in greece during the early 19 century almost more then half the population of Greece considered themselves as Albanians.
                  Not to sound too pedantic but by using the word "considered", it can be misconstrued as though they imagined themselves to be Albanians. Fact is they were Albanians. Their language was Albanian, not Greek. The only question is what their true size was in proportion to the rest of the "Greeks". Whether they made up half the population, a quarter or less, is hard to say as Ottoman census data mainly relied on the millet system (i.e., religious communities) in determining population data and the Christian Albanians would have been counted as Romioi. The Greeks prefer to refer to them as "Arvanites" rather than straight out as Albanians as it is more in keeping with their ethnic Greek purity delusions. Arvanites sounds more like some lost Greek tribe rather than a foreign people residing in Greece. They still exist in Greece today but their numbers are clearly underestimated and many, no doubt, have fallen for the delusion of being "Albanophone Greeks" who are in fact descended from the Ancient Greeks. Just like many Macedonians have fallen for the idea of being "Slavophone Greeks" that are descended from the Ancient Greeks.

                  According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the Greek speakers were the only ethnic group to actually call themselves Romioi. No other Balkan people called themselves by this name. They actually didn't even believe they had a connection with the Ancient Greeks during Ottoman times. This idea was seeded in their heads by the Germans. And now we even have Turkish refugees who believe they are ethnically connected to the Ancient Macedonians.

                  Comment

                  • Mr Gurther
                    Junior Member
                    • Mar 2023
                    • 8

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                    Not to sound too pedantic but by using the word "considered", it can be misconstrued as though they imagined themselves to be Albanians. Fact is they were Albanians. Their language was Albanian, not Greek. The only question is what their true size was in proportion to the rest of the "Greeks". Whether they made up half the population, a quarter or less, is hard to say as Ottoman census data mainly relied on the millet system (i.e., religious communities) in determining population data and the Christian Albanians would have been counted as Romioi. The Greeks prefer to refer to them as "Arvanites" rather than straight out as Albanians as it is more in keeping with their ethnic Greek purity delusions. Arvanites sounds more like some lost Greek tribe rather than a foreign people residing in Greece. They still exist in Greece today but their numbers are clearly underestimated and many, no doubt, have fallen for the delusion of being "Albanophone Greeks" who are in fact descended from the Ancient Greeks. Just like many Macedonians have fallen for the idea of being "Slavophone Greeks" that are descended from the Ancient Greeks.

                    According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the Greek speakers were the only ethnic group to actually call themselves Romioi. No other Balkan people called themselves by this name. They actually didn't even believe they had a connection with the Ancient Greeks during Ottoman times. This idea was seeded in their heads by the Germans. And now we even have Turkish refugees who believe they are ethnically connected to the Ancient Macedonians.
                    i found an old 1860 news paper which claims around 200k of the population was Albanian and according to greek demographics in 1861 the population was 1 million so around 1/5 of the population identified as Albanians. and i remember finding a newspaper around the 1900s which stated around 10% of the population in Greece spoke Albanian as their mother tonque

                    heres the 1860 newspaper : https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...arRange&page=1

                    this site has a lot of old interesting newspaper which mentions how back then IMRO and its leaders were mostly considered Macedonians

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15660

                      #25
                      Given “grandparents couldn’t understand their grandchildren” from the 1850’s onwards, it’s not difficult to imagine some brand new (Greek) identity was forming out of the Albanian stock of people.
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

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