Paionia and Paionians

[Stevce]

The royal tomb in https://arheoparkbrazda.mk/ is from the Argiane tribe. A massive city is there also leading archaeologist Viktor Lilclik went digging last year. In two days he found a wealth of material. Unfortunately he was chased away as much of the land it owned by Albanians. I think he has enough founds this year from the Diaspora to dig up the king valley. Around 10,000 royal graves from Paeonian rulers have known to be there for a number of years. Of course non of the governments ever funded the research.

[Carlin]

Where is Bylazora the largest city of the Paeonians located?

URL:

https://history-from-macedonia.blogspot.com/2021/02/where-is-bylazora-largest-city-of.html?m=1

The location of Bylazora near the village of Knezje in Sveti Nikole (in eastern Macedonia, in the Ovče Pole plateau) was first carried out by the archaeologist and professor Ivan Mikulčić. Archaeological excavations have been carried out on the site over the past two decades, which has produced many interesting scientific discoveries.

The site was explored by archaeologists from the Texas Foundation for Archaeological and Historical Research (TFAHR), the Institute for Art History and Archeology of the Faculty of Arts in Skopje in collaboration with the National Museum of Sveti Nikole.

The latest research was led by Professor Dragi Mitrevski from the Institute of Art History and Archeology. The Macedonian archaeologists have layers from the 5th and 4th centuries BC. excavated.

Scholars say that at the time when Alexander the Great or Perdiccas II of Macedon ruled the Lower Macedonian kingdom, there could only be Paeonian rulers in this area. They had gained independence from the Macedonian Empire in order to protect it from attacks from the north.

[toothpaste]

Toothpaste,

Did the Paionians have their own language, or did they speak ancient "Greek"?

We can't be sure about the Paonian language and its origin,since just some words ,names and place names survived (see above).

Some clasify it as Thracian,some as Illyrian,some as distinct ,but not as Macedonian or(/and?) Greek.
(although some of the kings' names are definitely Greek)

Did you know that the Paionians, Pelagonians, Lyncestians, etc (the Macedonian tribes from Upper Macedonians) had no communication problems (language, culture, etc) amongst the tribes of Upper Macedonia, nor with the Macedonian tribes from Lower Macedonia?

It's false to summon up Paionians with Lyncestians for ex.According to sources Lyncestians,Pelagonians ...etc formed the Upper Macedonians.
Paionians NOT.
In fact Paionians-as Thracians were pushed north (and east for Thracians) by the Macedonians.

About communication-it s not easy to find in the sources "communications problems" between people-i m not aware abt such communication problems between Macs and Thracians ,or even macs and Indians(!) in the ancient sources.
Does this mean they were speaking the same language?

But not even the contrary means necessarily smthing -for ex there are noted communication problems between Ionian and Dorian Greeks.It might be a dialectical problem too.

Even if such problems were mentioned between Macedonians and Paionians , it wouldn t be alone enough to have a conclusion.

[Rogi]

Toothpaste,

Did the Paionians have their own language, or did they speak ancient "Greek"?
Why do I ask?

Did you know that the Paionians, Pelagonians, Lyncestians, etc (the Macedonian tribes from Upper Macedonians) had no communication problems (language, culture, etc) amongst the tribes of Upper Macedonia, nor with the Macedonian tribes from Lower Macedonia?


This is because they were they same Macedonian people, from different tribes.

In fact, they were related. Philip's (Philip II of Macedon) mother, Eurydice, was a Lyncestian.

Quite similar to the way that in Macedonia TODAY we have Mijaks and Brsjaks, both are Macedonian tribes.

[Struja]

please!

[SIZE="5"]

THUCYDIDES ,HISTORY OF THE PELOPONNESEAN WAR

BOOK II ,(99).

He writes about the Peloponnesian war but yet his talking about the great Thracian invasion of 429bc. The question is was he there to see it happen??? No.

Now we know why the Macedonians retaliated against the Thracian and Greek import tribes in the region!

Well, Thucydides identifies himself as an Athenian but Herodotus tells us that Thucydides's father's name, Όloros, was connected with Thrace and Thracian royalty and combining all the fragmentary evidence available, it seems that his family had owned a large estate in Thrace, one that even contained gold mines.

Could this be a political propaganda motive from the 5th ct against the Macedonians? hint: there was a Thracian and Athenian alliance during this time! but history tell us Perdiccas did kick a few people out of the regoin, well all I can say is "dont fuck with the Macedonians"

[Вардарец]

Toothie,

I lost my will to debate with Greeks long ago.
For me it's a useless waste of time, at the end, i will stay on mine beliefs, you on yours.

As you have mentioned, the upper Macedonian tribes, had their own kings. Ofcourse they did, as it is the case with the Paeonians.

What may actually prove that they were different, it will be a couple of quotes from ancient times, stating that they needed translators to understand each others.

[Volk]

The maritime country which we now call Macedonia was conquered and formed into a kingdom by Alexander the father of Perdiccas and his ancestors the Temenidae, who originally came from Argos

This is simply based on the "philhellene's" attempt to prove his 'greekness'.
Which was rejected by the greeks and rejected by us

[toothpaste]

Vardarets, your opinion or belief is respected by me...but not taken really seriously ,since its just so-A personal BELIEF.

As you saw it was proved several times false.

I could go on a debate only if real arguments or sources were presented.

[Вардарец]

Tooth... So many tribes. What i say, is that they were the same people. Pretty basic?

[toothpaste]

I hate to tell you this but the people that were "kicked out" were the Greek colonies in these regions. The local population was never expelled as you say… so dont mix the two.

THUCYDIDES ,HISTORY OF THE PELOPONNESEAN WAR

BOOK II ,(99)

(99) Having mustered at Doberus, they made ready to descend over the heights into the plains of Macedonia, which were the territory of Perdiccas. There is an upper Macedonia, which is inhabited by Lyncestians, Elimiots, and other tribes; these are the allies and tributaries of the lower Macedonians, but have kings of their own. The maritime country which we now call Macedonia was conquered and formed into a kingdom by Alexander the father of Perdiccas and his ancestors the Temenidae, who originally came from Argos.59 They defeated and drove out of Pieria the Pierians, who afterwards settled in Phagres and other places at the foot of Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon; the land which lies under Mount Pangaeus towards the sea is still called the Pierian vale. They also drove out of Bottia, as it is called, the Bottiaeans, who are now the neighbours of the Chalcidians, and they acquired a narrow strip of Paeonia by the river Axius, reaching down to Pella and the sea. Beyond the Axius they possess the country called Mygdonia reaching to the Strymon, out of which they have driven the Edonians. They expelled from the country still called Eordia the Eordians, of whom the greater part perished, but a small remnant of them settled in the neighbourhood of Physca; and from Almopia the Almopians. They and their subjects further subdued and still hold various places belonging to other tribes, Anthemus, Grestonia, Bisaltia, and a great part of the original Macedonia. But [the whole of this country is now called Macedonia, and was under the rule of Perdiccas the son of Alexander at the time of the invasion of Sitalces.

[Вардарец]

A short reply,

Taken from our friend Stamos from Maknews

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4728277.ece



Judging from the time frame, these are most likely Paeonian graves, I highly doubt they are Macedonian. Don't forget that Pella was originally a Paionian city. Darron was a Paeonian God, and there is a temple dedicated to him at Pella, located in the Southern portion. The older city was located in the area of the temple, south of the mosaics and the main archaeological site.

Stamos

[sydney]

The reason why Paionians were a light cavalry in alexanders army is because they were the scouts of army! they were always in the front line lookouts.

did they have an interpreter to relay the messages to the macedonian core? i would suggest not. is this the point where we must now start realising that the paeonians were also greeks, just like the macedonians? because we are told by the greeks macedonians spoke greek and that's enough to close the case. but even further north to dardania, and beyond to the danube, did they also speak greek?

i'm keen to understand from members here about how communication functioned in this period. we know a lot about macedonian rule over greece and into persia, but what about to the north?

[Struja]

Macedonians waged many wars with the surrounding states and kingdoms after the establishment of the Macedonian kingdom. They did it mostly with the Thracians, so the borders were frequently changing. Does that mean that the local Macedonian/Paeonian/Thracian population disappeared ? I do think NO.

I have to agree with this...

In fact according to Thucydides the various tribes were expelled from what became kingdom of Macedon of the Argeads.

and toothpaste follow on quote:

Pierians were kicked eastwards (Pieria and Pieris) ...the same for Edones expelled from Mygdonia ,Bottiaioi were kicked from Pella region to north Chalkidike ,Paionians from the lower bank of Axios to the upper.

I hate to tell you this but the people that were "kicked out" were the Greek colonies in these regions. The local population was never expelled as you say… so dont mix the two.

No it is NOT the same.

For example the army of Alexander was made up of the core-the Macedonians ,formed in "Taxeis" of Phalangites pezetairoi and "Ilai" of companions (Etairoi).
The phalangites -infantry that followed Alexander deep in Asia was made up exclusively of men from Upper Macedonia (thats modern Greek West Macedonia and Bitola region)-Orestis, Lyncestis, Elimiotis ,Tymphaia.
The infantry from Lower Macedonia remained in the kingdom.

On the other hand Paionians ,as well as Agrianes,Thracians and Greek Hoplites ,formed their own contingents within the army ,fighting in their traditional way.
Paionians were light cavalry.But different from the Macedonian.

Why are you talking about the army?? And its formation what’s that got to do with it? That’s a poor example there toothpaste. But if fact the Macedonian army used/copied the Thessaly formation and what now the Macedonians must be Greeks? The reason why Paionians were a light cavalry in alexanders army is because they were the scouts of army! they were always in the front line lookouts.

[toothpaste]

#1
#2

Yes, i am aware that the second map predates the first, it can be easily seen.
BUT, did the Macedonians drove the Paeonians from the Solun region completely, or just politically? That's a question which can not be solved.
Macedonians waged many wars with the surrounding states and kingdoms after the establishment of the Macedonian kingdom. They did it mostly with the Thracians, so the borders were frequently changing. Does that mean that the local Macedonian/Paeonian/Thracian population disappeared ? I do think NO.

In fact according to Thucydides the various tribes were expelled from what became kingdom of Macedon of the Argeads.

As u see in the map...



Pierians were kicked eastwards (Pieria and Pieris) ...the same for Edones expelled from Mygdonia ,Bottiaioi were kicked from Pella region to north Chalkidike ,Paionians from the lower bank of Axios to the upper.

#3

Yup and it is true. I, DO believe that he was speaking about the inhabitants of the thema Bulgaria (south Larisa, upwards Belgrade). It could not be possible that all those people there be the descendants of Kubrat's 100.000 horseman horde. Alas, the center of Bulgaria was the thema Paristrion, were those Paristrians ethnically, or just politically.

Am i correct?

Hm ..not exactly..
Tzetzes (1110-1180) wrote his history when "themata" were replaced by other divisions.
Also he is speaking about the Bulgarian nation in his quote ,not about thema.
http://http://books.google.com/books...#PRA2-PA516,M1

#4

Will be my wishful thinking if i say Philip conquered the hellenic states, and you state your "historical" facts that Philip united the hellenes at Heronea?

Neither of them is true.
Philip of Macedonia together with his allies from Epirus ,Thessaly ,Phocis ,Aetolia and Epicnemedian Locris defeated Athenians and Thebans.

That's all.
Even inside Athens there was a pro and an anti-macedonian party.

If you are speaking about the later independence of the Paeonians, why not to speak about the Orestians(Core Macedonian tribe), which also gained independence for their war contributions against the Macedonian state from the Romans? Orestians lived in the area around Kostur. Were they too, separate from the Macedonians?

No it is NOT the same.

For example the army of Alexander was made up of the core-the Macedonians ,formed in "Taxeis" of Phalangites pezetairoi and "Ilai" of companions (Etairoi).
The phalangites -infantry that followed Alexander deep in Asia was made up exclusively of men from Upper Macedonia (thats modern Greek West Macedonia and Bitola region)-Orestis, Lyncestis, Elimiotis ,Tymphaia.
The infantry from Lower Macedonia remained in the kingdom.

On the other hand Paionians ,as well as Agrianes,Thracians and Greek Hoplites ,formed their own contingents within the army ,fighting in their traditional way.
Paionians were light cavalry.But different from the Macedonian.

These regions of Upper Macedonia (Orestis,Lyncestis,Eordaia,Elimiotis,Derriopos,Tym phaia)didn't have a king-even semi-autonomous ,some after Alexander I ,and other after Philip II reign.

Also Argos in Orestis ,was probably the birthplace of the Macedonian royal house.(and not Argos of southern Greece)

Paionia was part of Macedonia after Philip took over it.

I already wrote ...this was only after the Roman conquest.
Even during Philip's rule ,Paionians had their own king -Lycaeios (a coin was presented in "macedonian archaeology"
....
Lycaeios (359-340 BC),
Patraios (340-315 BC),
Audoleon (315 -286 BC),
Ariston (286 BC),
Leon (278-250 BC) and Dropion (250-230 BC) ..last mentioned Paionian king.

[Вардарец]

Where in hell did i claim smth like that?
It would be rather stupid (you too) to be convinced for either mine,or your granpas 2500 years ago..as for every individual. (esp in the Balcans)



You seem not much keen to the subject.
The second ("your") map is also true ,but predates the first.

As Homer himself mentions in Iliad Paionians of Axios valley and Amydon(on the map) fought with the Troyans.
Homer wrote abt 800-750 BC referring to a war fought in c.1200 BC.

As i already wrote in the times of Alexander I ,Macedon expanded eastwards ,expelling the Paionians from the lower bank of Axios (Vardar).
Thats in the 1st half of 5th century BC .Centuries later.




This quote reminds the Byzantine author Ioannes Tzetzes (12th cent) who wrote tha the Bulgarians are really Paionians.
Chiliades, X.185. (reprint of the 1826 edition by Georg Ols, Hildesheim, 1963.)



Well its nice as your opinion ,but absolutely false as a historical fact.

The kingdom of Macedon was established around 700-650 BC by the Argeads when they passed from "Upper Macedonia" (modern west Greek Macedonia and Bitola region) through Vermion mt to the plain of Emathia and Pieria.
The Paionians continued to live independently in the North (modern RoM).
The two states co-existed till Philip II conquered Paionia by making it a semi-autonomous,subordinate kingdom.
He firstly bribed them to evacuate the lands they raided and invaded,when their allies Illyrians defeated Perdikkas (brother of Philip) and his Macedonian army in 359 BC-Perdikkas fell on the battlefield) and the following year he invaded them ,defeated and conquered them.

But even after some decates Paionians managed to escape the Macedonian rule and reestablished indipendence under their own king and with their own capital (First Bylazora ,then Astibos) -(Macedonian capitals first Aigai ,then Pella).

Again Philip V reconquered Paionians (217 BC)

Paionia was considered part of Macedonia only after the Roman conquest when it was icorporated in Perfectura Macedonia.

#1

Sorry. But you, as a Greek, opening that topic, left me with no other opinion

But i do think that i am descendant of the Macedonian Ares (j/k)

#2

Yes, i am aware that the second map predates the first, it can be easily seen.
BUT, did the Macedonians drove the Paeonians from the Solun region completely, or just politically? That's a question which can not be solved.
Macedonians waged many wars with the surrounding states and kingdoms after the establishment of the Macedonian kingdom. They did it mostly with the Thracians, so the borders were frequently changing. Does that mean that the local Macedonian/Paeonian/Thracian population disappeared ? I do think NO.


#3

Yup and it is true. I, DO believe that he was speaking about the inhabitants of the thema Bulgaria (south Larisa, upwards Belgrade). It could not be possible that all those people there be the descendants of Kubrat's 100.000 horseman horde. Alas, the center of Bulgaria was the thema Paristrion, were those Paristrians ethnically, or just politically.

Am i correct?


#4

Will be my wishful thinking if i say Philip conquered the hellenic states, and you state your "historical" facts that Philip united the hellenes at Heronea?


The Macedonian kingdom was formed by the tribes living around Aigai. They were separate tribes, existing under different names before Macedon was formed. As time passed, more and more tribes were incorporated to the kingdom, through conquest and diplomacy.

If you are speaking about the later independence of the Paeonians, why not to speak about the Orestians(Core Macedonian tribe), which also gained independence for their war contributions against the Macedonian state from the Romans? Orestians lived in the area around Kostur. Were they too, separate from the Macedonians?

As you can see, my opinion falls that the Macedonians were a mix of the Thraco-Illirian tribes of the area, and not just specifically *Macedonians*. These people, had same/similar language.

Macedonians united into a state for a better protection, just like the Paeonians to the north, who were later incorporated into the Macedonian kingdom.

Can not say the same for Hellas, tho.

Paionia was part of Macedonia after Philip took over it.