Flags/Banners of Macedonia

[Niko777]

I wonder if the green backdrop is a reference to or was borrowed from the green Ottoman flag?
It would explain why they had white crescents on it.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

As a follow-up to my last post: after a bit of research I am certain that the colourised image above is another Bulgar forgery. I found a site which has a vectorised version of the flag in question here. The vector image has a red background with a black lion which, based on the preponderance of such flags, I believe is a more accurate representation of the flag's original colour.

Moreover, in the comment section of that site, a Bulgar has made the assertion that the "original" flag colour is green; the lion red, and that "no one draws a black lion" (translated from Bulgar), no doubt referring to the colourised image. This statement is of course false since the flag of the Razlovtsi Uprising also has a black lion on a red backdrop. The Bulgar also claims that the text is white, but in the colourised image one can see that the green saturation is overlayed even on the "white text" (evidently cutting corners). But the most damning of all is that the Bulgar actually links to the potential source of this manipulation, another Bulgar on Facebook who colourises old photographs. He is then duly called out on it in the reply.

To top it all of, here is a real-life reconstruction of the flag that I found. I wonder what their point of reference was...

Think you're onto it there Om3n and you are right about the black lion on the red background. Here is the flag from the Razlovci Uprising:

I wonder if the green backdrop is a reference to or was borrowed from the green Ottoman flag?
It would explain why they had white crescents on it.

This is possible as the fight was for autonomy within the Ottoman Empire, not total independence. So it would make sense to incorporate some Ottoman symbolism, we can't forget Sandanski posed with Ottoman flags during the Young Turk Revolution.

[Om3n]

Here is how the flags desaturate.

This shows that when light green with dark red are desaturated there is a near non-distinction of the colours in the monochromatic image. However, when a darker green with a lighter red colour are desaturated, the red appears lighter in the monochrome (you can try it with the Bulgar flag and see for yourself). Thus the original colour scheme of the flag being a green backdrop with a red lion is highly improbable. Having red desaturate darker than green is achievable, but not without using ridiculously unrealistic colour schemes which have no exemplary archetype in any of the flags posted in this thread.

[Niko777]

Here is how the flags desaturate.

This shows that when light green with dark red are desaturated there is a near non-distinction of the colours in the monochromatic image. However, when a darker green with a lighter red colour are desaturated, the red appears lighter in the monochrome (you can try it with the Bulgar flag and see for yourself). Thus the original colour scheme of the flag being a green backdrop with a red lion is highly improbable. Having red desaturate darker than green is achievable, but not without using ridiculously unrealistic colour schemes which have no exemplary archetype in any of the flags posted in this thread.

When was the Ilinden magazine published, 1920s? If technology back then yielded the same results as today's, then I agree with your post above.

[Risto the Great]

Of course you realise you weren't even allowed to wear green in Ottoman times unless you were a Muslim. If we see any Green on a Macedonian flag, I would regard it as an extreme act of aggression. What do you think Deliberator of Macedon?

[Niko777]

Of course you realise you weren't even allowed to wear green in Ottoman times unless you were a Muslim. If we see any Green on a Macedonian flag, I would regard it as an extreme act of aggression. What do you think Deliberator of Macedon?

Apostol Petkov was the fiercest of them all, em komita em aramija

[Risto the Great]

I would have thought a red lion on a sea of green would have been violently making a statement Niko.

I'll have to read more about Petkov.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I wonder if the green backdrop is a reference to or was borrowed from the green Ottoman flag?

If we see any Green on a Macedonian flag, I would regard it as an extreme act of aggression.

I think there may be some merit in both of your suggestions. The green was probably borrowed from an Ottoman flag, perhaps because it was a familiar enough colour for a battle flag or perhaps because it was a sign of rebellion / aggression against the Islamic oppressors. It's probably a similar reason Bulgarians used it, except in their case they took it further. When they established their state they adopted the Russian flag and changed the middle stripe from blue to green, so the Bulgarian flag is, from top to bottom, white-green-red. In some of the flags (or supposedly reconstructed flags) used by Macedonian revolutionaries posted on this thread, if we are to assume that green was used, they don't follow the same colour order as the Bulgarian flag.

I'm no expert either but, if I was to hazard a guess, I think it has something to do with the communist atheist ideology of the time (i.e. in 1944/45) who, on the one hand, felt the need to commemorate the Macedonian people's uprising against the Turks and, on the other, break all ties with the Orthodox church.

Looks like the Gregorian calendar was imposed on different parts of occupied Macedonia between 1912 and 1923. See the below link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar#Adoption

Would it be better to go the way of Ovcharani and other Aegean Macedonian villages who celebrate Ilinden on 20th of July?...I'm not sure but I wouldn't be opposed to it ether way.

It's not better as it would be commemorated on the wrong day (as it currently is in Ovčarani). I think important calendar events should be acknowledged by their corresponding dates according to the Julian calendar, so next time Ilinden comes around on August 2nd (according to the Gregorian calendar everybody uses today), the church and Macedonian organisations commemorating the event could make an effort to publicise the fact that it is actually July 20th according to our old calendar on that same day.

[Om3n]

Just so it's understood, there is no verifiable proof that there was ever a flag featuring a red lion on a green background except for a modern colourisation and reconstruction which are discredited by desaturation. There are however multiple examples of a gold lion on a green background being used in Bulgaria. In favour of it being a black or brown lion on a red background, there are several examples of historical flags using this colour scheme including the modern reconstruction from Zagoricheni itself (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...9640735&type=3). Furthermore, in 1992 there was a proposal for the coat of arms of Macedonia showing a black lion or a red background (http://heraldika.org.mk/heraldry/izb...kedonija-1992/).

[FoxTale]

Been seeing this image being spread around by Bulgars and them claiming that Bulgarian flags were flown during the uprising. Any truth to this?

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Been seeing this image being spread around by Bulgars and them claiming that Bulgarian flags were flown during the uprising. Any truth to this?

Yes I've seen this too. It appears to be a recolouring of the flag of the Ohrid četa, which I have already posted in this thread.

As for the claims of Bulgarian flags flown during the rising, I have never been shown any evidence of this by either photographs or written recordings. There is both physical and written evidence of other flags and banners during the rising but none about these mythical Bulgarian flags so I would say these are just Bulgar lies.

[Carlin]

I'm no expert either but, if I was to hazard a guess, I think it has something to do with the communist atheist ideology of the time (i.e. in 1944/45) who, on the one hand, felt the need to commemorate the Macedonian people's uprising against the Turks and, on the other, break all ties with the Orthodox church. The modern equivalent of the Orthodox calendar date for Ilinden, 2nd of August, commemorates the Ilinden Uprising without tying it to the Orthodox Church. That's my take on it anyway.

The "paradox" here is that the new communist authorities were one of the strongest advocates (and supporters) for the creation of a separate/autonomous Macedonian Church.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Postcard from the Balkan Wars portraying then Bulgarian PM, Vasil Radoslavov with flags reading 'Independent Bulgaria' and 'Free Macedonia'. A good representation of how Bulgaria attempted to portray themselves as liberators of Macedonia and likely how they persauded many Macedonians to fight for them during the wars.



A flag likely designed around the same time, promoting a 'Free Macedonia' [under Bulgaria].

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Apostol Petkov was the fiercest of them all, em komita em aramija

Don't know how I've only just noticed now that the red half contains the embodiment of Macedonia, which has appeared in numerous other banners and drawings, and the green half depicts a defeated Ottoman soldier. The triump of the red (Macedonia) over the green (Ottoman Empire)? Think it's fair to assume this could be the reason for the colouring of this flag.

[VMRO]

Don't know how I've only just noticed now that the red half contains the embodiment of Macedonia, which has appeared in numerous other banners and drawings, and the green half depicts a defeated Ottoman soldier. The triump of the red (Macedonia) over the green (Ottoman Empire)? Think it's fair to assume this could be the reason for the colouring of this flag.

Green depicts Islam.