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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13675

    #16
    Originally posted by Onur View Post
    I think you already know the answer of this question SOM, don't you?........We don't know for sure about when the term Turk created at first but we know that it`s became a name of a state in 6th century.
    Onur, from what I read previous to my question, I could only date the term back to the 6th century, as you've indicated above. The reason for my question is simple; if terms such as Slovene and Serb are relatively new, as you suggested, then that means the term Turk is just as new, or thereabouts, doesn't it? All of them arose at the beginning of the middle ages.
    Originally posted by Dimko
    the mankind DNA is 98,6% of majmun origin and 1,4% of not known origin (aliens?)....
    Hahaha.....that's funny.
    slovak is trying all the time to de-patriot us....to make us not to feel macedonian....and to give up our heritage
    Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and perceptions, but I don't see any evidence of Slovak imposing his ideas on Macedonians with the aim of 'de'nationalising' us. If you've seen something along those lines, please share it with us. To be honest, I think you're making too much of this and aren't grasping the fact that Slovak doesn't really care about nations, as he has repeated several times. I find Slovak's participation here sobering, despite the fact that I don't agree with all of his views. Rather than looking for negatives, try and get the positives out of interaction with such a character, as opposing views need to be discussed in order to find common ground and identify the points where you will agree and agree to disagree.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Droog
      Member
      • Mar 2011
      • 120

      #17
      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      I don't disagree with too much of the above. How recent is the term 'Turk'?
      Not to mention that a Turk of 1600 was definitely not the same as Turk of 1300 etc.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13675

        #18
        The meaning of an Albanian was hardly stable either.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Droog
          Member
          • Mar 2011
          • 120

          #19
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          The meaning of an Albanian was hardly stable either.
          Well, an Albanian of 1300 was the same as an Albanian of 1600. Not creating an empire has its benefits sometimes.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13675

            #20
            Originally posted by Droog
            Well, an Albanian of 1300 was the same as an Albanian of 1600. Not creating an empire has its benefits sometimes.
            You should be thankful that the Turks did establish an empire, because that is the primary reason for the large expansion in numbers of the Albanians. Anyway, you fail to equate the loose meaning of an 'Albanian' with other terms commmon in the Balkans. How predictable. I think I might throw a curve ball here and give you some of your own medicine - can you show me any document written by anybody in the world that refers to "ethnic" Albanians prior to the 19th century? After you (fail to) do that, perhaps you can show us some evidence from the 1300-1600 period, where the term 'Albanians' is used specifically in reference to the ancestors of today's ethnic Albanians. I know that some exist, just not sure of the quantity and depth of information.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • ennea
              Banned
              • Apr 2011
              • 46

              #21
              Slovak/Tomas/Anomaly,
              To my horror I realize I know nothing about Slovakians. The few things I knew as Bohemian (Smetana, Dvorak) or Czechoslovakian (Janacek, Kundera, Forman, Chytilova, Passer, Menzel, Hrebejk) are actually Czech.
              Still, there’s an exception. The amazing film The Shop on the Main Street seems to be considered Slovakian.
              Also, I admit that while I recognized Polish things, I always confused Hungarians and Czechoslovakians.

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15660

                #22
                Originally posted by ennea View Post
                Also, I admit that while I recognized Polish things, I always confused Hungarians and Czechoslovakians.
                What about Greeks and Macedonians/Arvanites/Vlachs etc ... can you tell the difference or are they all the same to you?
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • ennea
                  Banned
                  • Apr 2011
                  • 46

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                  What about Greeks and Macedonians/Arvanites/Vlachs etc ... can you tell the difference or are they all the same to you?
                  Well, I'm not a psychic, so I can't.
                  I haven't met any Arvanite, as far as I know. Yet, I have met many Albanian (& Russian) immigrants. Even when their Greek becomes almost fluent, it's still recognizable as (slightly) broken with a characteristic accent.
                  But, there's the new generation (called second or 1 ˝ generation) that is not recognizable as foreign, unless they are Black or Asians.

                  Comment

                  • Delodephius
                    Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 736

                    #24
                    Ennea, I know little about Slovaks too. I'm a Lowland Slovak, we're descendants of colonists scattered over a wide area in southern Pannonia, the majority being in Vojvodina. I went to Slovakia only once. Even though our customs are similar and we speak similarly (particularly in the central highlands from where most of our ancestors came from) we have a considerably different mentality and behaviour. We picked it up from the Serbs. We are more bold and daring, know how to have a good time and relax, while the Highlanders are very uptight and generally boring. They were under a much stricter form of Communism that, well, crushed their spirit, while we prospered under Titoism, most minorities did, noteworthy being the Albanians about whom the Serbs constantly bitch about; we had plenty of privileges Serbs, Croatians, Slovenians or Macedonians didn't have, and this kinda made us very influential in post-Communist Yugoslavia. Well, as much as it could. There's only like 60.000 Slovaks here.

                    But times are changing. I'm leaving for Slovakia in a month or two. I'm going to apply for citizenship, which as a diaspora Slovak I can acquire almost immediately, and finally be a citizen of the European Union. There is plenty of work to be done, particularly in the East, and my near-perfect knowledge of English could open me to some profitable opportunities on the translational market. Serbia is stagnating and I'm going to waste my youth here without gaining any education (without money) or experience (there are no jobs). My hopes are Serbia is gonna join the EU soon. It won't be a miracle makeover, I mean look at Romania and Bulgaria, they're bigger dumps than Serbia is, but it's a start to becoming a decent country and not some isolationist dump full of assholes.
                    Last edited by Delodephius; 04-29-2011, 04:55 PM.
                    अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                    उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                    This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                    But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                    Comment

                    • Epirot
                      Member
                      • Mar 2010
                      • 399

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      You should be thankful that the Turks did establish an empire, because that is the primary reason for the large expansion in numbers of the Albanians. .
                      Not at all. The number of Albanians decreased even more during Ottoman empire. You need just to make a little research on comparing the number of Albanians in one side, and Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians in the other. In the beginning of XIX century, the number of Albanians outnumbered that of Serbs, and sometimes were more numerically than Greeks and Bulgarians. But in the next century the demographical structure will change drastically: Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians increased enormously their population. How come this? Because Ottoman Empire tolerated extremely the assimilating policies of those states: the missionary priests and churches took place everywhere in the territories held by Ottomans. That's why a sizable part of Orthodox Albanians passed either as Serbian or Greek.

                      can you show me any document written by anybody in the world that refers to "ethnic" Albanians prior to the 19th century?
                      Be more specific because your question is truly undefined. Are you suggesting that Albanians prior to the 19th century had no ethnic consciousness about themselves? If you are making such allusion, then you are dead wrong because Albanians at least had a very strong ethnic bond: it was the common memory for the past. Albanians of Middle Ages considered themselves as descendants of Epirotes and Pyrrhus. The Epirotic heritage was so prevalent among Albanians, as many foreign writers were compelled to accept the very fact that Albanians trace their origin to the glorious Epirotes.
                      IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

                      Comment

                      • Onur
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2010
                        • 2389

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Epirot View Post
                        In the beginning of XIX century, the number of Albanians outnumbered that of Serbs, and sometimes were more numerically than Greeks and Bulgarians. But in the next century the demographical structure will change drastically: Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians increased enormously their population. How come this? Because Ottoman Empire tolerated extremely the assimilating policies of those states: the missionary priests and churches took place everywhere in the territories held by Ottomans.
                        That didn't happen by the Ottoman authority`s own will. Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians were allowed to realize that as a result of demands, blackmailing and pressures of great powers and Russia.


                        Are you suggesting that Albanians prior to the 19th century had no ethnic consciousness about themselves? If you are making such allusion, then you are dead wrong because Albanians at least had a very strong ethnic bond: it was the common memory for the past. Albanians of Middle Ages considered themselves as descendants of Epirotes and Pyrrhus. The Epirotic heritage was so prevalent among Albanians, as many foreign writers were compelled to accept the very fact that Albanians trace their origin to the glorious Epirotes.
                        Whether Albanian population has been decreased or not, you Albanians owe your current existence to your higher status inside Ottoman empire.

                        For centuries, Albanian pashas ruled in Macedonia, Kosovo and ofc in Albania and they were allowed to do whatever they wished for. Albanians even ruled in northern Africa and middle-east. For example, Egyptian people considers Albanian Mehmed Ali pasha as the founder of modern Egypt. Your first leaders in Albania after Balkan wars were educated and raised in Istanbul, they were pashas of Ottoman empire. So, you Albanians had these kind of opportunities and that`s why we have Albanian state now, otherwise you would end up shouting "zito ellines" like your southern kinsmen by becoming neo-hellenes or Serbian peasants like you said.

                        You Albanians keep cursing to us in your history books like Greeks does but for example, if we compare your situation during Ottoman era with the communist Russian yoke period, it`s vastly different. I heard that your communist dictators wasn't even allowing ordinary people to walk in the streets of Tirana center. If we think about your ruling status during Ottoman era ,in vast areas like from Cairo to Kosovo, thats quite a difference, right? So, you better get the facts and quit dreaming by saying that "our Epirotien heritage kept us strong!", like supposedly only the emotions of Albanians was the reason for your existence.

                        You Albanians had their own privileged status inside Ottoman empire like Greek patriarchy had and you exploited that as much as you can just like Greeks did. I`m sorry to say that but If you didn't have these opportunities, then your glorious Epirotien heritage wouldn't mean jack shit since thats the hard truth!
                        Last edited by Onur; 04-30-2011, 04:34 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13675

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Onur
                          Albanians had their own privileged status inside Ottoman empire like Greek patriarchy had and you exploited that as much as you can just like Greeks did.
                          This is a fact which cannot be denied.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Droog
                            Member
                            • Mar 2011
                            • 120

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Onur View Post
                            You Albanians had their own privileged status inside Ottoman empire
                            a)The Ottomans never accepted to recognize an Albanian millet, so no privileged status
                            b)The Albanian language was the only banned language of the empire

                            I rest my case.

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13675

                              #29
                              Your privileged status came as a result of your people accepting Islam en masse, while (most) the rest of your Christians neighbours became second-class citizens. As for your language being banned, where was it banned, from use in a mosque? Was it banned when Evliya Celebi recorded a range of different Albanian terms during the 17th century? Was it banned in the villages, in family names, etc? How exactly was this 'ban' enforced?
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Epirot
                                Member
                                • Mar 2010
                                • 399

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                                As for your language being banned, where was it banned, from use in a mosque? Was it banned when Evliya Celebi recorded a range of different Albanian terms during the 17th century? Was it banned in the villages, in family names, etc? How exactly was this 'ban' enforced?
                                I think there is a huge misconception by your side. As far as I see, Droog was referring to the banning of Albanian from the official level (administrate, schools, religious institutions, etc). The Albanian usage was strictly not permited in the official life of Albania.

                                "At this time the Turkish Government, afraid of the rising national spirit of the Albanians, tried to suppress it by forbidding the printing and teaching of the Albanian language under heavy penalties". http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1941.html
                                IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!

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