To our Brothers the Macedonians, 1905!

[momce]

After long study I figured out why the modern roumtards are so racist against us we are closer to proto-Hellenic then they are. So sad. Asta la vista greecia.

[Daskalot]

There are no more pictures, only the front page available so far.

[momce]

I know what you mean.
But honestly, once in deep discussion with almost all Greeks, the discussion soon turns to antiquity. At that point they have already descended into a lost argument.

Ultimately they accept the right to self-identify. And are surprised at how long we Macedonians have been doing this. They can be nice people once you show them where the electric fence is.

Yes the roumgreciansformeranalharemofturkey cant seem to account for themselves for the last 2000 years. Someone send out a search party or better yet f%^uck them.

[Nexus]

The second picture ,in the link posted in the first post, is expired : http://makibe.blogspot.com/2008/12/blog-post_21.html. Have anyone the second picture?

By the way, great thread and bump !

[Daskalot]

Voltron what are your thoughts regarding this document?

[Daskalot]

Bump like an ostrich with its head in the sand

[Daskalot]

I know what you mean.
But honestly, once in deep discussion with almost all Greeks, the discussion soon turns to antiquity. At that point they have already descended into a lost argument.

Ultimately they accept the right to self-identify. And are surprised at how long we Macedonians have been doing this. They can be nice people once you show them where the electric fence is.

We need to get past Zeus, after that it is a piece of cake to deconstruct them into oblivion...... and I would prefer Pepper spray.... more sting in that.... Zeus might crap in his toga... oh the horror....

[Risto the Great]

I am to, but having all mighty Zeus sitting on top of your head every minute of the day, will make it very hard... even for the free thinkers of intelligence.

I know what you mean.
But honestly, once in deep discussion with almost all Greeks, the discussion soon turns to antiquity. At that point they have already descended into a lost argument.

Ultimately they accept the right to self-identify. And are surprised at how long we Macedonians have been doing this. They can be nice people once you show them where the electric fence is.

[Daskalot]

They will continue to put their heads in the sand like ostriches.
We know this.
It does not work for them.
So which newspapers in Greece would allow a reprint of this?
I am positive people of intelligence can make up their own minds ... even in Greece.

I am to, but having all mighty Zeus sitting on top of your head every minute of the day, will make it very hard... even for the free thinkers of intelligence.

[Risto the Great]

Vodenka is lovely.
How could someone so intelligent, sweet and thoughtful be considered an enemy of her own State? Only in Greece!

[Risto the Great]

They will continue to put their heads in the sand like ostriches.
We know this.
It does not work for them.
So which newspapers in Greece would allow a reprint of this?
I am positive people of intelligence can make up their own minds ... even in Greece.

[Daskalot]

Η ανασφάλεια της Κάτω Μακεδονίας


«Δεν εννοήσαμεν αν η γλώσσα ήτον η μακεδονική ή η ελληνική», έγραφε το
1904 ο Παύλος Μελάς στη γυναίκα του από κάποιο σλαβόφωνο χωριό της
Μακεδονίας. «Ζα νάσητε μπράτιε Μακεντόντσι» (για τους αδελφούς μας
Μακεδόνες) τιτλοφορούνταν οι προκηρύξεις που οι μακεδονομάχοι μοίραζαν
στους χωρικούς το 1905, όταν ο επίσημος χαρτογράφος του ελληνικού
βασιλείου εξηγούσε πως ο Μακεδονικός Αγώνας διεξάγεται μεταξύ
«Ελληνιζόντων Μακεδόνων» και «Βουλγαριζόντων Μακεδόνων» αλλά «η
εθνότης είναι η αυτή και εις τας δύο ταύτας κατηγορίας, ήτοι η
Μακεδονική». Το 1920 η επίσημη απογραφή πληθυσμού του ελληνικού
κράτους κατέγραψε την ύπαρξη «μακεδονικής γλώσσας», διακριτής από τη
σερβική και τη βουλγαρική. «Μακεδονική γλώσσα» αναφέρει ακόμη και η
εμφυλιοπολεμική Λευκή Βίβλος που εξέδωσε το 1947 το κράτος των Αθηνών.
Για «μακεδονική γλώσσα η οποία ομιλείται στα Σκόπια και έχει
γραμματικήν και συντακτικόν» έκανε τέλος λόγο το 1959 στη Βουλή ο
Ευάγγελος Αβέρωφ, υπουργός Εξωτερικών του Καραμανλή του πρεσβύτερου.
Να υποθέσουμε πως όλοι αυτοί δεν ήταν παρά ενεργούμενα του
«αλυτρωτισμού των Σκοπίων», αφού έσπευσαν -μερικές δεκαετίες πριν από
τον κ. Ντάνιελ Φριντ του Στέιτ Ντιπάρτμεντ- ν' αναγνωρίσουν την ύπαρξη
της ακατονόμαστης «ψευδοεθνότητας» και «ψευδογλώσσας»; Οσο για την
Πηνελόπη Δέλτα, ο ρόλος της είναι εξαιρετικά ύποπτος: αυτή δεν γράφει,
και μάλιστα στα «Μυστικά του Βάλτου», για πληθυσμούς που «εθνική
συνείδηση είχαν τη μακεδονική μονάχα» δυο ολόκληρες γενιές πριν απ'
τον Τίτο;


Περίσσεψε φαίνεται ο ενθουσιασμός από την εθνική μας νίκη στο
Βουκουρέστι. Από την επιβεβαίωση δηλαδή του ότι κι εμείς, ως
παλαίμαχοι νατοϊκοί, μπορούμε να καταπατούμε ατιμωρητί τις διεθνείς
συμφωνίες που έχουμε υπογράψει. Μέσα σε χρόνο μηδέν παραμερίστηκαν
έτσι η διπλωματική μετριοπάθεια και τα ορθολογικά επιχειρήματα, περί
μιας σύνθετης ονομασίας που θα καθιστά διακριτή τη «δική μας»
Μακεδονία από την «άλλη», κι επιστρέψαμε επί της ουσίας στις μέρες του
1992-93. Από τον Γιώργο Παπανδρέου ώς τον Γιώργο Καρατζαφέρη κι από τα
φιλοκυβερνητικά κανάλια μέχρι το «Ριζοσπάστη», όλος ο πολιτικός κόσμος
σπεύδει να καταγγείλει σαν «απαράδεκτη πρόκληση» ακόμη και την απλή
παραδοχή του αυτονόητου: ότι οι βόρειοι γείτονές μας έχουν εθνική
ταυτότητα και γλώσσα, τις οποίες οι ίδιοι προσδιορίζουν (και η
υπόλοιπη ανθρωπότητα -με την εξαίρεση των Βούλγαρων εθνικιστών-
αποδέχεται) εδώ και πολύν καιρό ως μακεδονικές. Αυτή όμως η σκλήρυνση
δεν αντίκειται απλώς στο υφιστάμενο διεθνές δίκαιο περί εθνικού
αυτοπροσδιορισμού. Αδυνατεί επίσης εκ των πραγμάτων να συμπυκνωθεί
θεσμικά σε κάποιο διεκδικήσιμο αίτημα, πέρα από την ανομολόγητη αλλά
οφθαλμοφανή προσδοκία αυτοδιάλυσης του «κρατιδίου». Ταυτόχρονα,
ωστόσο, αποκαλύπτει το βαθύτερο (και παράλογο, μολονότι ιστορικά
ερμηνεύσιμο) σύνδρομο εθνικής ανασφάλειας που υποκρύπτεται πίσω από το
θέατρο σκιών περί «μακεδονισμού». Εναν αιώνα μετά τους Βαλκανικούς
πολέμους, μάλλον κάποιοι δεν έχουν ακόμα πειστεί πως η ελληνική
Μακεδονία είναι όντως ελληνική.


(Ελευθεροτυπία, 19/4/2008)

http://www.iospress.gr/megalo2008/megalo20080419.htm

in macedonian:

За нашите братје македонци

Чуството на несигурност на Долната Македонија


“ Не разбравме дали јазикот бил македонски или пак грчки “, иׂнапишал
1904 година Павлос Мелас на неговата сопруга од некое славофонско село
на Македонија. “ За нашите братје македонци “ гласале флаерите што ги
делеле грчките андарти (македономахи) кај селаните во Македонија во
1905 година, кога официјалниот картограф на грчкото кралство
објаснуваше дека


Македонската Борба се води помеѓу “ прогрчки македонци “ и “
пробугарски македонци “ но “ националноста и кај двете страни е
македонската “.


Во 1920 година официјалниот попис на население на грчката држава
регистрираше постоење на “ македонски јазик “, посебен од српскиот и
бугарскиот. За “ македонски јазик “ пишува и Белата Книга од 1947
година која се издаде во Атина за време на граѓанската војна.


За “ македонски јазик кој се зборува во Скопје и има граматика и
синтактика“ зборуваше во грчкиот парламент во 1959 година Евегелос
Аверов, министер за надворешни работи во владата на Караманлис.


Да претпоставиме дека сите тие биле инструмент на “ скопскиот
иредентизам “ бидејќи го признаа -неколку децении пред Данјел Фрид од
Стеит Департментот – постоењето на “ лажната нација “ и “ лажниот
јазик “?


Улогата на Пинелопи Делта била особено сомнителна. Таа напишала во
книгата “ Тајните на блатото “ дека “ националниот идентитет на
населението во егејска Македонија бил само македонскиот “ и тоа цели
две генерации пред Тито.


Голем ентузијазам за нашата национална победа во Букурешт. Потврда
дека ние, како ветерани во НАТО, можеме без казна да ги прекршуваме
меѓународните договори што ги потпишавме. Одеднаш се маргинализира
дипломатската умереност и логичните аргументи, околу едно сложено име
кое ќе ја разликува “ нашата “ од “другата “ Македонија, и се вративме
всушност во 1992-93 година.


Од Јоргос Папандреу до Јоргос Караџаферис, и од блиските до владата
канали до кумунистичкиот “ Ризоспастис “, политичкиот свет го осудува
како провокација тоа што се подразбира ׃ дека нашите северни соседи
имаат национален идентитет и јазик, кои самите ( како и останатиот
свет – освен бугарските националисти ) ги нарекуваат македонски.


Оваа тврда позиција на Грција не е спротивна само на меѓународната
регулатива околу националното самоопределување, туку не може во
реалноста законски да се формулира како барање.


Постој неискажана, но очигледна желба за самораспаѓање на
“државичката“. Истовремено се открива и подлабокиот ( нелогичен, и ако
историски оправдан ) синдром на националната несигурност која се крие
зад “ македонизмот “.


Еден век по балканските војни, некои луѓе веројатно не се уште убедени
дека грчката Македонија е навистина грчка.


( Елефтеротипиа, 19/04/2008)

So, again the Truth is told, this time by the Greeks themselves, the struggle was between Macedonians of pro-Greek sentiments and pro-Bulgarian sentiments, but their nationality was one and the same, MACEDONIAN. Can it get any clearer then this?

What do our Greek and Bulgarian friends have to say about this?

[Daskalot]

this was posted by Vodenka about this book.

Here bellow you can find the very interesting comment of the above, made by “Abecedar” in the Maknews forum in the greek language section:
Quote:
"This is the official public proclamation of the Greek-Macedonian Committee in 1905. It is found in the files of Institution of Studies of Peninsula of Emou. (2) I do not know its content. Much probably it is still one propaganda fairytale of Greek Komitatzi with a view to butter up the Macedonians back in 1905. Anyway, let’s examine carefully the cover of the PROCLAMATION. It has many things to tell us: First of all the entire name itself Ellinomakentonski Komitet/Greek-Macedonian Committee implies that one thing is to be a Macedonian and another to be a Greek. As it is when we say Greek-French or Greek-British etc committee. It addresses obviously… the Macedonians and this is the reason it is written in the Macedonian language, although with use of Greek alphabet. It does not address to, any, Greeks existing in, then, Ottoman Macedonia. It is obvious, also, that the same GreekMacedonian Committee does not consider them Macedonians and for this reason does not address them. Otherwise it would have be written in the Greek language or in Vlachian (aka Mertzos) or in Arvanite or in…Pontian (well these came after 1922)! By the things the PROCLAMATION and its writers, Macedonianfighters (3) over any suspicion, write, not only they recognize the Macedonian language (with use of Greek alphabet) but they recognize also that the speakers are Macedonians. (4) The word “komitato” means committee. In the Greek historiography the term “komitatzis” means the one that is member of a committee that acted in then Ottoman Macedonia, and more especially the Bulgarians, who caused slaughters at the expense of non-combatant population, mainly at the Macedonians. Respectively the members of Greek Macedonian commitee co-existed with those komitatzides who “hand in hand” with Bulgarian komitatzides slaughtered the Macedonian population in 1900-." (5)

[Daskalot]

why do we not get any comments by our Greek members? where are you?

[Soldier of Macedon]

The Greek 'Macedonian' committee was not a native organisation like the Macedonian Rebel Committee of Kresna or the Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation of Ilinden, instead it was formed in Athens by foreigners with the intention of abosrbing Macedonia territory within the Greek state at any expense. The members of this committee are also the 'Makedonomahos', the non-Macedonians fighting for the Greek cause in Macedonia, such as Pavlos Melas.

Not only does the official document of this committee clearly acknowledge the existence of the Macedonian people and language, so too does Pavlos Melas in his letters from the same years.

This evidence cannot be refuted.