Origin of the word Komitadji (Comitadji)

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Banned
    • Jan 2009
    • 3823

    Origin of the word Komitadji (Comitadji)

    According to wikipedia (yes I know it's unreliable, hence why I am questioning it) the word Komitadji (Comitadji) http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/comitadji Etymology
    From various Balkan languages, all from Turkish komitacı,[1], from komita (from French comité (“‘committee’”)) + -cı. and the source is supposedly Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster. 2002.

    But then I run into this from Michael Grant's book Constantine the Great



    and found another wiki article on the word Comitatenses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comitatenses

    I think that the etymology of Komitadji should be in dispute.
  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13675

    #2
    It would help if there was something more in support of another theory and some citations prior to the 19th century. The only one I can think of is the surname of Samuel's family, although I don't think that has any relation. Or does it?
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • TrueMacedonian
      Banned
      • Jan 2009
      • 3823

      #3
      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      It would help if there was something more in support of another theory and some citations prior to the 19th century. The only one I can think of is the surname of Samuel's family, although I don't think that has any relation. Or does it?


      While previous emperors dedicated the coins to "Soli Invicto," Constantine coins are dedicated to "Soli Invicto Comiti." The word comiti, during imperial ages indicated a minister of the emperor (That's how the feudal title "count" originated). Even the two consuls were called "comites" (check on Du Cange glossarium of mediae et infimae latinitatis). The legend therefore reads: "to the unconquered Sun, minister (of the Lord)." Basically it indicated that Sun was the maximum agency in the sky, as Constantine was on the earth; but both where subordinated to God.



      In relation to the word Comiti I found this in Michael Grant's 'The Climax of Rome' page 171 -

      Commudus not only identifies himself with Hercules(the god) but calls him his Comrade or Companion (HERCVLI COMITI).

      Comiti - Companion or Comrade according to Michael Grant.

      The link above with the posted info tells us that the word Comiti meant Count. Indeed the Komitopouloi (if that's how it's spelled) meant 'sons of the count'.

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      • TrueMacedonian
        Banned
        • Jan 2009
        • 3823

        #4
        Some more on this topic:


        page 199


        Notice the word 'Count' (underlined in blue).

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        • Serdarot
          Member
          • Feb 2010
          • 605

          #5
          there is a saying between the older Mariovci, mostly used as irony to the bulgarian lie that "komiti" is a bulgarian word:

          "ka bea nashte stari kumiti, Stambol osche be(she) Carigrad"

          Also the military formation, the cHETA´s of Kumiti, is indisputable connected with HETA-roi.

          Also "na-konte-n" means "nakiten", and is present in many Macedonian dialects.

          "Konte" is a word that most of the Macedonians understand very good, also if they don´t speak French.
          Bratot:
          Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.

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          • George S.
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2009
            • 10116

            #6
            TM another good find
            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
            GOTSE DELCEV

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            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13675

              #7
              The concept between comitatus and komiti may be the same, ie; members of a group, community, committee, etc, however, I am not sure if there is any direct continuity between the term used during the eras of Constantine and Samuel and that used by Macedonian revolutionaries during the 19th and 20th century. The latter does appear to stem from tsentralniot komitet, or Central Committee of IMARO, but at the same time, not all regular members of IMARO were a part of the Central Committee.
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Дени
                Member
                • May 2010
                • 136

                #8
                The similarities here are due to distant cognates. The Turkish, French and English variants of 'committee' are ultimately from the same Latin root committo. The Turkish variant being borrowed from French.

                This is confirmed by the progression of sound changes between those languages, and lastly from Turkish to Macedonian.

                Комит, комита, комитаџија and комитаџилак are undoubtedly Turkish for this very reason: the suffixes -cı and -lık are assimilated into Macedonian as , -џија and -лак.

                The word itself was originally used by Turkish sources to refer to the various anti-establishment committees and only later came to be used exclusively for Macedonian guerrillas (following the French usage of comitadjis).

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13675

                  #9
                  What examples are there of Turkish sources using such a word prior to the Macedonian revolutionaries, and how long prior?
                  Originally posted by Deni
                  Комит, комита, комитаџија and комитаџилак are undoubtedly Turkish for this very reason: the suffixes -cı and -lık are assimilated into Macedonian as -Ř, -џија and -лак.
                  In Macedonian one doesn't need to use the Turkish suffixes, the sing. komita and plur. komiti are common enough.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Дени
                    Member
                    • May 2010
                    • 136

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    What examples are there of Turkish sources using such a word prior to the Macedonian revolutionaries, and how long prior?
                    The Committee of Union and Progress is one.

                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    In Macedonian one doesn't need to use the Turkish suffixes, the sing. komita and plur. komiti are common enough.
                    Yes, there is a lot of variation: we have комитаџилак and комитство (deprecated), for example. There doesn't seem to be a convincing argument for a non-Turkish derivation (at least not as the transmitter language).

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                    • lavce pelagonski
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2009
                      • 1993

                      #11
                      YouTube - Sedum komiti : Music of Macedonia
                      Стравот на Атина од овој Македонец одел до таму што го нарекле „Страшниот Чакаларов“ „гркоубиец“ и „крвожеден комитаџија“.

                      „Ако знам дека тука тече една капка грчка крв, јас сега би ја отсекол целата рака и би ја фрлил в море.“ Васил Чакаларов

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                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Дени View Post
                        The Committee of Union and Progress is one.
                        The CUP is called İttihat ve Terakki Cemiyeti in Turkish, with the word cemiyeti representing 'committee'. That differs from komitet and komita. Google translate does also produce komite for 'committee' in Turkish, but do you have any evidence of Turkish sources originally using komitadhzi for CUP members? Couldn't the Macedonians have obtained the word for 'committee' directly from French rather than a Turkish medium, which was then recorded in Turkish sources as komitadzhi?
                        Yes, there is a lot of variation: we have комитаџилак and комитство (deprecated), for example.
                        The first has an unnecessary Turkish suffix that was adopted due to social circumstances (ie; contact with Turkish during the Ottoman period), even without it the word made (and still makes) perfect sense, and is suitable for Macedonian phonology.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

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