The Macedonian Sun & (Original) Flag

[fyrOM]

TM you are right that the sun is a star but this concideration is from a modern perspective. For a very long time man has viewed the sun as a separate entity. Think of the church’s relatively recent view that the sun moon and star all revolved around the earth let alone ancient times. The sun was the sun and the stars were the stars.

Macedonians are know for worshiping the sun then as a Macedonian symbol I think the most likely depiction is The Sun and not any other sun which we commonly call stars.

The fact that the sun is a star would not have been evident to the ancients so the only likely conclusion is the sun. Even today if you say star most people don’t think of the sun. Lets be happy sun worshipers.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I also remember that they wanted to select a new anthem. Several proposals were suggested and heard in parliament (all of them sounded somber and funereal) before it was decided that the current anthem was actually pretty good.

The current anthem basically indicates a continuation of the struggle for a state from the Krushevo Republic in Macedonia. Don't you find it extremely odd that the president of that short-lived state, Nikola Karev, is nowhere mentioned? Do you know why this is so?

[Risto the Great]

On the coat of arms, I believe VMRO wanted the lion symbol, but this was rejected as it was seen as a party symbol (a decision I agree with), and the decision was postponed.

I think the lion extends beyond any political party.

[sf.]

The current anthem basically indicates a continuation of the struggle for a state from the Krushevo Republic in Macedonia. Don't you find it extremely odd that the president of that short-lived state, Nikola Karev, is nowhere mentioned? Do you know why this is so?

I am aware of assertions that have been made. In this context, I can understand the reasons.

I think the lion extends beyond any political party.

The point is you can't have a political party with the same (very minor differences not withstanding) symbols as the state ones. This is unnaceptable in a healthy democratic political system. VMRO were smart to go for nationalistic symbols, but this has ruined the opportunity for the lion to become our national coat of arms.

[freifrau]

I am aware of assertions that have been made. In this context, I can understand the reasons.



The point is you can't have a political party with the same (very minor differences not withstanding) symbols as the state ones. This is unnaceptable in a healthy democratic political system. VMRO were smart to go for nationalistic symbols, but this has ruined the opportunity for the lion to become our national coat of arms.

I don't think that an ethnic symbol can be monopolized by a party.
Maybe the party should modify it a bit (adding some letters,or changing the shape..)

I believe tha strongest opposition would be from the Albanian minority who feels that is not represented by the Lion symbol.

[julie]

Freifrau, the Albanian minorities feelings have nothing to do with the representation of the Lion symbol, I do not understand why you are putting this forward. Does Germany look at incorporating their minority groups in their national coat of arms??
Australia certainly doesnt.
The Albanian group is just that, a recent influx of migrants to RoM, forced upon us, why would they need representation in Macedonia/s coat of arms?
Once again, you seem extremely pro -Albanian, and it has nothing to do with me being a nice and quiet Macedonian girl. I am a proud Macedonian. period.

[freifrau]

Freifrau, the Albanian minorities feelings have nothing to do with the representation of the Lion symbol, I do not understand why you are putting this forward. Does Germany look at incorporating their minority groups in their national coat of arms??
Australia certainly doesnt.
The Albanian group is just that, a recent influx of migrants to RoM, forced upon us, why would they need representation in Macedonia/s coat of arms?
Once again, you seem extremely pro -Albanian, and it has nothing to do with me being a nice and quiet Macedonian girl. I am a proud Macedonian. period.

"Efforts to update the national emblem
The most popular proposal for a new coat of arms from 1992, by Miroslav Grčev

Such efforts have so far failed, due to political and national disputes over possible replacements. A proposal by architect and graphic designer Miroslav Grčev was put forward in 1992 to replace it with a revised version of the historical gold lion on a red shield. The Macedonian Heraldry Society considers that coat of arms to have been the best solution for a new state emblem.[13] However, this was rejected on three main grounds:

* several political parties, notably VMRO-DPMNE, already use that emblem as their party symbols
* the Albanian political parties of Macedonia considered the proposal to be only representative for the ethnic Macedonians, but not also for ethnic Albanians
* the state coat of arms of Bulgaria features a lion similar to the Macedonian[14]

Because of these reasons, the political parties agreed to continue to use the current device until a solution is found. The emblem did not appear on the country's first passports, however, in 2007 the device was put on the front and the inside of the new biometric Macedonian passports, while the parliamentary debate about acceptance of a new national emblem still continues.

According to the provisions of the Article 5, Section 2 of the Constitution of Macedonia, the two-thirds majority is required to pass a law on the new symbols of the Republic. The usage of the Coat of arms has been defined by a law.[15]"


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I said WOULD not SHOULD.

[fyrOM]

The national symbol and party symbol cannot be exactly the same but I do not see that either needs to give up there historical symbols. VMRO began in unique circumstances and the current party being an offshoot of the original using this name as part of theirs should be able to represent its roots.

As to the coat of arms the ethnic Albanians or any other ethnic groups should not be considered at all in this decision.

Freifrau your quote

* the Albanian political parties of Macedonia considered the proposal to be only representative for the ethnic Macedonians, but not also for ethnic Albanians

eludes to a view that is at the root of the problems with the Albanians in RoM.

If this is also your view then

Guess what…the country is called MACEDONIA in case you missed it or forgot. There so happens to be an ethic group called Macedonians. Do you think the ethnic group might have a symbol and do you think Macedonians may want to have a Macedonian symbol for the country Macedonia. Do you know that with your line of thinking one could just as easily say the name of the country doesn’t feel all inclusive as it is also the name of only one of the ethnic groups in the country maybe we should change that to something else and avoid using the word Macedonia.

Fiji is one country that comes to mind in a similar position. There are ethnic Fijians and ethnic Indians as the two largest ethnic groups as well as some others. The nationality is Fijian. The ethnic Fijians are Fijian and the ethnic Indians are Fijian.

You know there are a few ethnic non Albanians in Albania who might not feel all that included in a country that wants to call itself after only one ethnic group or use a symbol like the flag and coat of arms that represents only one of the ethnic groups. Maybe Albania should change her flag coat of arms and while we are at it why not the name too.

Your comment is exactly the line the Greeks are pushing that yes the land is Macedonia but the ethnic Albanians and according to the greeks the ethnic Slavs and others migrated there so at best because of the very long time they have lived on Macedonian soil they could all call themselves a kind of Macedonian. How’s about northern or upper or new ect then ALL the ethnic groups there can think of themselves as a kind of Macedonian. I find this view extremely offensive.

When the ethnic Albanians realise and can say with pride they too are Macedonian nationals will there be peace. Realise the ethnic Albanians in RoM are NOT Albanian national unless they hold dual citizenship any more than they would be Albanian nationals if the migrated to say Germany. When they can stop thinking this is somebody else’s land and the ethnic Albanians and Slavs are carving it up for themselves and no ones symbols should be used the sooner peace will be.

Further it is extremely offensive to use a different countries flag in an official form inside ANY country yet the ethnic Albanians want to fly the Albanian flag on government buildings in RoM. That flag does NOT represent there national status anywhere in the world unless they are from Albania.

[Vangelovski]

The point is you can't have a political party with the same (very minor differences not withstanding) symbols as the state ones. This is unnaceptable in a healthy democratic political system. VMRO were smart to go for nationalistic symbols, but this has ruined the opportunity for the lion to become our national coat of arms.

Why? Why can't a political party have the same symbols as the national symbols?

Have you ever looked at Australian and American party symbols and their corresponding state symbols?

The Liberal Party of Australia has the entire Australian flag in its logo. The Australian Labor Party has the Southern Cross. Do we now have to change the Australian flag?

[Risto the Great]

Yes, the lion pre-dates VMRO.
It is a national symbol that a political party has adopted.
It does not mean it now is automatically excluded from being a relevant symbol to Macedonians.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am aware of assertions that have been made. In this context, I can understand the reasons.

Can you please elaborate? What exactly is understandable about the decision not to cite Karev in the anthem?

[indigen]

Спасе Шуплиновски: “...Токму во тоа време [1992] од Австралија (Сиднеј) пристигна Ефтим Ефтимов кој донесе од него патентирано Филипово знаме (црвено со златно 16-крако сонце во средината со розета од здравец исто како на каселата на Филип Македонски во Кутлеш)., Членот на Уставната комисија м-р Пандил Костурски го однесе тоа знаме на седница на комисијата. "Еве, имаме знаме, што бараме друго!" - рече....”

A little further info on the topic of how the 16-ray Macedonian Sun Flag came into being. Eftim Etimov made several trips to Macedonia to promote the flag prior to its adoption and his efforts eventually bore fruit, in one way or another.

[sf.]

Why? Why can't a political party have the same symbols as the national symbols?

Have you ever looked at Australian and American party symbols and their corresponding state symbols?

The Liberal Party of Australia has the entire Australian flag in its logo. The Australian Labor Party has the Southern Cross. Do we now have to change the Australian flag?

Political parties tend incorporate the existing symbolism into their logos/party symbols. In the case of the Liberal party, the flag is incorporated in a stylised 'L' with the word 'LIBERAL' under it. The flag takes up less than a quarter of the whole logo. In the case of the major American parties, there are popular representations for each party, but their official logos are quite different from the state symbols.

The Lion in the VMRO logo is dominant, and presented as a variation of the traditional coat of arms. As a state coat of arms, there will be very minor differences between the two. In such a situation, there is a danger that the party could become synonymous with the state and its institutions, and could be seen as being given an unfair political advantage. This needs to be avoided in a healthy democratic system.
And if you want to find examples, look nowhere else but to the communist countries where the party and the state are indistinguishable.

Yes, the lion pre-dates VMRO.
It is a national symbol that a political party has adopted.
It does not mean it now is automatically excluded from being a relevant symbol to Macedonians.

I didn't say that it should be excluded as irreleveant. People are free to take pride in the symbol and use it. Personally I love it. But I am saying that currently, it should not be used as an official coat of arms. I would prefer for VMRO to modify their symbol greatly, as a precondition for the lion's coat of arms usage.

Can you please elaborate? What exactly is understandable about the decision not to cite Karev in the anthem?

From Keith Brown, The Past in Question: Modern Macedonia and the Uncertainties of Nation (2003): The story about how the Karev descendants in Krushevo were staunch Bulgarian supporters during WW2. Given that the anthem was written in this period, it is possible that the ommission of the Karev name was deliberate. At some later post-war stage, the family's history was 'forgotten/forgiven' and the Karev name was used by the authorities in their official history. The other possibility is that with so many heroes of the Macedonian struggle, only several promininent names were selected, to fit within those two lines. I can't confirm either possibility as fact, but wouldn't be surprised by the truth in them.

I would also like to say that I find freifrau stupid. When s/he affords us some respect, I will pay it back.

[julie]

sf, I agree with you , i also find freifrau stupid and insulting bratko, what do you expect from neo fascists closet Greek racists though?

[sf.]

julie, the clown questioned the purpose of this site and proceeded to demean us. The purpose of the MTO is clear. We are not here to indulge outsiders and be patronised by them. We are here to empower ourselves, as a first step in the long struggle faced by our people ahead. If others don't like this, then to quote you: "neka puknat."

Cheers