Who are the Slavs? - Citations and Sources

[Soldier of Macedon]

I think what we are saying is that originally they were a distinct group as the Germans were. Of course during their expansion they absorbed local indigenous elements so it doesnt necessarly conflict with what your saying either. As a result I suggested if we wanted to point to an ethnos that would best represent the Slavic one today where would we go ? I said Poland and from various articles that I have read its certainly a contender.

Germans are not a good analogy, and like I told you before, the German language (before going through a number of changes and stages of development) originated from Proto Germanic in the south of Sweden and the northern tip of Germany. The ancestors of modern Germans are not the original "ethnos" of all other peoples who speak Germanic languages today, for example, the people and language of Germany did not spread into Scandinavia. Even in the case of the Netherlands, people who spoke Germanic languages settled the area well before a specifically 'German' ethnic identity was established, even if a common linguistic and partly cultural identity had existed at the time. Therefore, you need cease equating German with Germanic, you shouldn't have to be continually reminded of such a simple distinction. I find it interesting when some people try to connect the spread of the term 'Slavic' with DNA results and the similarities shared by the populations between Slovenia and Russia. Is there any evidence suggesting that the relevant genetical markers spread from the 6th century AD?

Many Swedes are the descendents of colonists who were previously living in what would become known as Poland and elsewhere in Central and Eastern Europe many thousands of years ago. If the Russians were Slavs, would not the Vikings be Slavs, as well? Or is it the other way around?

Sovius, been a little while, welcome back. What are your thoughts on the origin of Germanic? Do you think it descended directly from PIE or developed as a 'creole' mix of IE languages (or an IE and other language)? I would also like to know your opinion on the below:

If they were a unique 'racial group' then that almost implies they spoke a language that was unrelated to other languages. However, that is not the case. Slavic languages descend from the same proto language that produced Baltic (and in my opinion Paleo-Balkan) languages. The 'Slavs' were merely peoples that descended from indigenous populations in Europe, who espoused a common identity based on a common lingua franca (this doesn't mean that all of them gave up their tribal or ethnic identities completely), most likely as a bulwark against Gothic, Hunnic and Avar encroachment. Many of those peoples already spoke languages that would be considered as kindred to the Slavic lingua franca, before they adopted the latter.

[Voltron]

How did this thread take a turn on focusing on Russia ?
Scratch a Russian find a Tatar, ok lets move on.

[Onur]

What is a "Slav"?

Bill77, actually Chentovist indirectly answered your question. Aside from linguistics, The slavs means Varangian Vikings, Kypchak/Cumans, Germanic goths and various other peoples in case of Russia. It was more or less same for the other so-called slavic peoples too.

I gave the examples of 3 medieval Russian rulers but he asks for another "slavic nobility". Well, these 3 rulers were the slavic nobility too and the rest were their descendants. These Kypchak/Cumans, Tatars, Vikings has became the slavs of Russia both for the nobility and the ordinary folk.

[Voltron]

The problem I have with that interpretation is the following. If they were a unique 'racial' group' then that almost implies they spoke a language that was unrelated to other languages. However, that is not the case. Slavic languages descend from the same proto language that produced Baltic (and in my opinion Paleo-Balkan) languages. The 'Slavs' were merely peoples that descended from indigenous populations in Europe, who espoused a common identity based on a common lingua franca (this doesn't mean that all of them gave up their tribal or ethnic identities completely), most likely as a bulwark against Gothic, Hunnic and Avar encroachment. Many of those peoples already spoke languages that would be considered as kindred to the Slavic lingua franca, before they adopted the latter.

I think what we are saying is that originally they were a distinct group as the Germans were. Of course during their expansion they absorbed local indigenous elements so it doesnt necessarly conflict with what your saying either. As a result I suggested if we wanted to point to an ethnos that would best represent the Slavic one today where would we go ? I said Poland and from various articles that I have read its certainly a contender.

[Voltron]

My view is that Slavs were at one time a racial group, and that in the case of Russia, the Viking Rus ruled over these Slav people. They adopted the national name of Rus over time in honour of the state-forming nation of Rus. Over time however these Slav peoples have spread out and intermingled with various peoples, and are today more of a linguistic group, rather than a racial group. I guess a similar analogy can be used for Germanic peoples, and the English for example who are a Germanic nation, and their language a Germanic language. This however does not make them any less English.

Agreed, Thats my belief as well.

@ Sovius, my intention wasnt to get deep into haplogroups and genetic markers. The articles was meant to be read as a whole, I briefly visited the site you posted. Interesting but its not something that I would spend a lot of time reading. If you can tell me in laymen terms what is different from the article that I posted in 2007 that would be great.

[Soldier of Macedon]

My view is that Slavs were at one time a racial group.......

The problem I have with that interpretation is the following. If they were a unique 'racial' group' then that almost implies they spoke a language that was unrelated to other languages. However, that is not the case. Slavic languages descend from the same proto language that produced Baltic (and in my opinion Paleo-Balkan) languages. The 'Slavs' were merely peoples that descended from indigenous populations in Europe, who espoused a common identity based on a common lingua franca (this doesn't mean that all of them gave up their tribal or ethnic identities completely), most likely as a bulwark against Gothic, Hunnic and Avar encroachment. Many of those peoples already spoke languages that would be considered as kindred to the Slavic lingua franca, before they adopted the latter.

[Sovius]

Many Swedes are the descendents of colonists who were previously living in what would become known as Poland and elsewhere in Central and Eastern Europe many thousands of years ago. If the Russians were Slavs, would not the Vikings be Slavs, as well? Or is it the other way around?

[Bill77]

My view is that Slavs were at one time a racial group, .......

Over time however these Slav peoples have spread out and intermingled with various peoples, and are today more of a linguistic group, rather than a racial group.

Interesting.

[chentovist]

I get your linguistical point of view,
But chentovist might be implying and unintentionally misleading readers that "Slavs" to be a race or tribe.

Now what gives me that impression? He mentions Yaroslav the Wise - was a Varangian Viking Rus, Prince Andrey Bogolyubsky - His mother was a Kipchak princess (assuming these are tribe names) then in the next line chentovist asks for Slav nobility.

So i ask again and for chentovist to answer, what is a "slav" if its more than a linguistical term.

My view is that Slavs were at one time a racial group, and that in the case of Russia, the Viking Rus ruled over these Slav people. They adopted the national name of Rus over time in honour of the state-forming nation of Rus. Over time however these Slav peoples have spread out and intermingled with various peoples, and are today more of a linguistic group, rather than a racial group. I guess a similar analogy can be used for Germanic peoples, and the English for example who are a Germanic nation, and their language a Germanic language. This however does not make them any less English.

[Sovius]

I just remembered how tiresome this forum can be...

Anyway, is this a joke or you just became touchy just because i wrote as mongols to the medieval Russians?

I think you are not aware of it but there is a science branch called anthropology and a technic called facial reconstruction which gives very accurate results, tested and proved for more than a century.

I think you are not aware of it but there is a science branch called population genetics and a technic called reading. The epicanthic folds that some Russians possess, these "Mongol" features of yours, are the result of long term co-existence and admixture between populations defined by both the N and R1a> Haplogroups. Go do some snowshoeing through northern Russia and Scandinavia and you'll figure it out.

I'm not sure I even know where to begin with your backwards assed views regarding Poland and Ukrainia. Are you familiar with the concept of sequential logic? Take a look at the link I just posted for Optimus Prime one page back and do a little research. Pay particular attention to where marker M458 is in relation to the Z93, Z283 and Z280 cluster. Those funny looking symbols on the bottom of the chart represent numbers and the numbers, in turn, represent the number of years before the present. Now, do a little research and see if you can find out where the source region of the M458 marker is located. Now, if Location X is the source region of Marker Z, where would Marker Y, the parent marker of Z, have to be in order to mutate into Marker Z? If you'd care to step a few markers back, it gets even more interesting.

[Bill77]

Apparently it is a word that Macedonians should pretend doesn't exist. That way we can allow our enemies to have the benefit of doubt while we keep our heads in the sand. At least according to some.

I get your linguistical point of view,
But chentovist might be implying and unintentionally misleading readers that "Slavs" to be a race or tribe.

Now what gives me that impression? He mentions Yaroslav the Wise - was a Varangian Viking Rus, Prince Andrey Bogolyubsky - His mother was a Kipchak princess (assuming these are tribe names) then in the next line chentovist asks for Slav nobility.

So i ask again and for chentovist to answer, what is a "slav" if its more than a linguistical term.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What is a "Slav"?

Apparently it is a word that Macedonians should pretend doesn't exist. That way we can allow our enemies to have the benefit of doubt while we keep our heads in the sand. At least according to some.

[Bill77]

Now look for some Slav nobility instead...

What is a "Slav"?

[chentovist]

Onur, nice try;

Yaroslav the Wise - was a Varangian Viking Rus

Prince Andrey Bogolyubsky - His mother was a Kipchak princess, Khan Aepa's daughter.

Now look for some Slav nobility instead...

[Onur]

Onur,
Thank you for all these interesting examples of Imperialist Era pseudo-scholarship, quite impressive, really, I was wondering where all those textbooks went after Germany lost WW I.

Not sure what to make of all those decapitated human heads. Is this a popular hobby in Turkey?

I just remembered how tiresome this forum can be...

Anyway, is this a joke or you just became touchy just because i wrote as mongols to the medieval Russians?

I think you are not aware of it but there is a science branch called anthropology and a technic called facial reconstruction which gives very accurate results, tested and proved for more than a century.