Who are the Slavs? - Citations and Sources

[Soldier of Macedon]

That rule only applies for those who create new threads and only post a link.

[Vangelovski]

What's in the link is the explanation on itself. I found it pointless to write one then.

If you don't write one, I'll find it pointless to keep your link. The rules apply to everyone.

[Delodephius]

What's in the link is the explanation on itself. I found it pointless to write one then.

[Vangelovski]

http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/architect.asp

Slovak, Julie has a point. No links without explanations.

[julie]

SoM, would you be able to point out to your mate Slovak, the rules we need to abide by in relation to posting a link without any explanation as to what is about please

[Delodephius]

Slovak, I don't need that condescending history lesson thank YOU very much, professor
Macedonians were the first to use old Church Slavonic, I did not realise I was not allowed to have input on your thread!

http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/architect.asp

[Vangelovski]

Oh I'm not talking about that. I am very well aware of who spread OLD Church Slavonic to the rest of the Slavs, in fact I have a very detailed knowledge of that thank you very much. If you'll read my post carefully you'll see I mentioned that first.

What I'm talking about is that the liturgical language that is read today in Macedonian, as well as in the rest of Orthodox Slavic Churches, is the Russian recension of the Old Church Slavonic language, know subsequently as simply Church Slavonic.

Short history lesson:
After Cyril and Methodius brought the language to Great Moravia and modified it slightly to fit the Moravian pronunciation, this was the first recension of the language. In other words, the Moravians didn't use the exact Macedonian dialect in their service, but a slightly modified one, in essence an artificial dialect. The same thing happened when Old Church Slavonic was brought to Bulgaria, Serbia, Russia and Croatia. Over centuries these modifications grew more and more, and so they are referred to by the name of the language under which they were done. This was due to Old Church Slavonic being similar to the native language of the writers and copyists that they modified the language based on their own's pronunciation. So, since the 11th century AD, or so, we have Macedonian Church Slavonic, Bulgarian Church Slavonic, Serbian Church Slavonic, Croatian Church Slavonic, Russian Church Slavonic, and even Ukrainian Church Slavonic. What most people don't know therefore is that Old Church Slavonic is simply a stage of the development of Slavonic from 9th until 11th century AD, whence it was still pretty much the same language as that of the Macedonians in Solun. After that it evolved into various forms that were all artificial in nature. In all modern Orthodox Slavic-speaking churches the language they use is not Old Church Slavonic, not the language that St. Cyril and St. Methodius used to translate the Bible, not the Old Macedonian dialect. Old Church Slavonic is only taught to the clergy so they can read older copies of the books as well as to university students who went to study a Slavic language, usually a two semester course. The language they used in the church today is Church Slavonic. But what recension you may ask? Well, since about the late 18th century the Serbian church adopted the Russian recension of Church Slavonic, Bulgarian did in the 19th century, and the Macedonian church did as well, or better yet kept using it once it established itself as a separate autonomous Church. All however pronounce the Church Slavonic language in their own way. So we basically have a Old Macedonian language that went through a Russian modification of changed grammar and vocabulary and then again pronounced in Macedonian, but the modern dialect. I hope that makes sense, but its all true, you can look it up in any grammar of Church Slavonic, that's is its history in short.

Thats nice. But when I go to church, both in Australia and in Macedonia, the service is in Modern Macedonian, not the Russian modifications of Old Macedonian or even Old Macedonian itself.

[julie]

Oh I'm not talking about that. I am very well aware of who spread OLD Church Slavonic to the rest of the Slavs, in fact I have a very detailed knowledge of that thank you very much. If you'll read my post carefully you'll see I mentioned that first.

What I'm talking about is that the liturgical language that is read today in Macedonian, as well as in the rest of Orthodox Slavic Churches, is the Russian recension of the Old Church Slavonic language, know subsequently as simply Church Slavonic.

Short history lesson:
After Cyril and Methodius brought the language to Great Moravia and modified it slightly to fit the Moravian pronunciation, this was the first recension of the language. In other words, the Moravians didn't use the exact Macedonian dialect in their service, but a slightly modified one, in essence an artificial dialect. The same thing happened when Old Church Slavonic was brought to Bulgaria, Serbia, Russia and Croatia. Over centuries these modifications grew more and more, and so they are referred to by the name of the language under which they were done. This was due to Old Church Slavonic being similar to the native language of the writers and copyists that they modified the language based on their own's pronunciation. So, since the 11th century AD, or so, we have Macedonian Church Slavonic, Bulgarian Church Slavonic, Serbian Church Slavonic, Croatian Church Slavonic, Russian Church Slavonic, and even Ukrainian Church Slavonic. What most people don't know therefore is that Old Church Slavonic is simply a stage of the development of Slavonic from 9th until 11th century AD, whence it was still pretty much the same language as that of the Macedonians in Solun. After that it evolved into various forms that were all artificial in nature. In all modern Orthodox Slavic-speaking churches the language they use is not Old Church Slavonic, not the language that St. Cyril and St. Methodius used to translate the Bible, not the Old Macedonian dialect. Old Church Slavonic is only taught to the clergy so they can read older copies of the books as well as to university students who went to study a Slavic language, usually a two semester course. The language they used in the church today is Church Slavonic. But what recension you may ask? Well, since about the late 18th century the Serbian church adopted the Russian recension of Church Slavonic, Bulgarian did in the 19th century, and the Macedonian church did as well, or better yet kept using it once it established itself as a separate autonomous Church. All however pronounce the Church Slavonic language in their own way. So we basically have a Old Macedonian language that went through a Russian modification of changed grammar and vocabulary and then again pronounced in Macedonian, but the modern dialect. I hope that makes sense, but its all true, you can look it up in any grammar of Church Slavonic, that's is its history in short.

Slovak, I don't need that condescending history lesson thank YOU very much, professor
Macedonians were the first to use old Church Slavonic, I did not realise I was not allowed to have input on your thread!

[Delodephius]

My past readings it was Macedonian influenced Russian via the Old Church Slavonic/Old Macedonian, St Clement in his missionary work as a student of Cyril and Methodius (it was not the Russians influencing the Macedonians there Delodephius.
St Clement set out to do this as the Apostle Paul came to Ohrid in 1AD to spread the gospel

Oh I'm not talking about that. I am very well aware of who spread OLD Church Slavonic to the rest of the Slavs, in fact I have a very detailed knowledge of that thank you very much. If you'll read my post carefully you'll see I mentioned that first.

What I'm talking about is that the liturgical language that is read today in Macedonian, as well as in the rest of Orthodox Slavic Churches, is the Russian recension of the Old Church Slavonic language, know subsequently as simply Church Slavonic.

Short history lesson:
After Cyril and Methodius brought the language to Great Moravia and modified it slightly to fit the Moravian pronunciation, this was the first recension of the language. In other words, the Moravians didn't use the exact Macedonian dialect in their service, but a slightly modified one, in essence an artificial dialect. The same thing happened when Old Church Slavonic was brought to Bulgaria, Serbia, Russia and Croatia. Over centuries these modifications grew more and more, and so they are referred to by the name of the language under which they were done. This was due to Old Church Slavonic being similar to the native language of the writers and copyists that they modified the language based on their own's pronunciation. So, since the 11th century AD, or so, we have Macedonian Church Slavonic, Bulgarian Church Slavonic, Serbian Church Slavonic, Croatian Church Slavonic, Russian Church Slavonic, and even Ukrainian Church Slavonic. What most people don't know therefore is that Old Church Slavonic is simply a stage of the development of Slavonic from 9th until 11th century AD, whence it was still pretty much the same language as that of the Macedonians in Solun. After that it evolved into various forms that were all artificial in nature. In all modern Orthodox Slavic-speaking churches the language they use is not Old Church Slavonic, not the language that St. Cyril and St. Methodius used to translate the Bible, not the Old Macedonian dialect. Old Church Slavonic is only taught to the clergy so they can read older copies of the books as well as to university students who went to study a Slavic language, usually a two semester course. The language they used in the church today is Church Slavonic. But what recension you may ask? Well, since about the late 18th century the Serbian church adopted the Russian recension of Church Slavonic, Bulgarian did in the 19th century, and the Macedonian church did as well, or better yet kept using it once it established itself as a separate autonomous Church. All however pronounce the Church Slavonic language in their own way. So we basically have a Old Macedonian language that went through a Russian modification of changed grammar and vocabulary and then again pronounced in Macedonian, but the modern dialect. I hope that makes sense, but its all true, you can look it up in any grammar of Church Slavonic, that's is its history in short.

[Po-drum]

I don't get it.
What's the problem if macedonian language is part of slavic group of languages???

[George S.]

Thanks Som so really slav is not really a language.To avoid confusion why don't we just call it Macedonian (macedonise the Slav)Then there won't be any confusion.But left like that
simply because we had some influence of slav. Some more than others Come to think of it we had a lot of different invaders visit us roman.celts,goths,huns, etc

[julie]

My past readings it was Macedonian influenced Russian via the Old Church Slavonic/Old Macedonian, St Clement in his missionary work as a student of Cyril and Methodius (it was not the Russians influencing the Macedonians there Delodephius.
St Clement set out to do this as the Apostle Paul came to Ohrid in 1AD to spread the gospel

There is also something else I would like to point out about these "migrations", to support my theory Macedonians, are part of the oldest "slav"ic language speaking group, and support my personal theory on Macedonians being from antiquity, including the language


"It is now generally agreed that the people who lived in the Balkans after the Slavic "invasions" were probably for the most part the same as those who had lived there earlier, although the creation of new political groups and arrival of small immigrants caused people to look at themselves as distinct from their neighbours, including the Byzantines".
Timothy E Gregory, A History of Byzantium. Wiley- Blackwell, 2010. Pg 169

[Soldier of Macedon]

RTG isn't it confusing in one sense there is no slaV language THEN THERE IS A GROUP of family of languages.

There is no Latin language of the Romans today either, but there are still Romance languages which derive from Latin. Ever heard a Spaniard or Frenchman spit the dummy because their languages were referred to as Latin, Romance, or, in an even broader context, Italic? Of course not.

[Delodephius]

The more geographically two Slavic languages are, the higher the percentage of common words they have. Two neighbouring dialects, even if classified as belonging to a different language, are almost the same. Hence the so-called Dialectical Continuum of the Slavic languages.

As for the percentage, if two most geographically distant Slavic languages like Russian and Slovenian, which have no common history beyond their common origin, have a 80% common vocabulary (excluding foreign words and personal names) then how high is the percentage between two more geographically closer languages like Macedonian and Russian, who also share a common religion and a common liturgical language, which influenced both of them interchangeably (Macedonian influenced Russian via the Old Church Slavonic/Old Macedonian, and then Russian influenced Macedonian via Church Slavonic i.e. Russian Church Slavonic). Plus to that, language is only half its vocabulary. The other half is its grammar. And even though Macedonian and Bulgarian have evolved a different nominal declension in the last 1000 years and less (Old Macedonian had a full nominal declension), they have preserved most of the verbal conjugation, more than some other Slavic languages have. In short, Macedonian grammar is in the large part (the other part being its own unique inventions), and I don't know the exact statistics for it, a typical Slavic grammar, with its phonology, morphology and syntax (three key components of grammar) being not only just similar but in many cases quite the same as in other Slavic languages. Before you make rash conclusions without any knowledge of grammar or any other branch of linguistics, keep in mind that one language cannot simply be similar to another by the way of influence of the other language on it or vice versa. The root and trunk of Macedonian grammar, just like the grammars of all other Slavic languages, is of the same composition, i.e. they are the same from "down to up", not "up to down" like Albanian having over half of its vocabulary and grammar of Eastern Romance origin.

[George S.]

RTG isn't it confusing in one sense there is no slaV language THEN THERE IS A GROUP of family of languages.No wonder there is confusion.Of course there is no country like slav.
When i speak of a slav language i mean that it is only in the linguistic contribution sense.Also there is no slav ethnic sense.No wonder it's all confusing people through the ages was smearing macedonia with a tainted brush to say we aren't macedonian.