The sound of ancient languages

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  • Sarafot
    Member
    • Dec 2008
    • 616

    #31
    This sounds like Swedish!,realy lets ask Trovald if he understand some words?
    I havent heard suefix Tiki Riki fiki,realy saunds like some Latvian or Swedish or some other scandinavian language!!!
    Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
    - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

    Comment

    • Spartan
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1037

      #32
      Risto my good man
      In what time period did the Greek language stop being used, and when do you think it was re-introduced? How? and by who?
      I ask you this not to be a smart-ass my friend, but most things I have read about this subject(which is not that much), state that there is a natural connection from the different forms of Greek used over the millenia.
      For example, each stage of the Greek language has a clear connection to the previous, and next stage of the language.
      If this is true, surely it could not have been faked, could it?
      I dont pretend to be an expert on such a topic, thus would like to read what you, or anyone else here for that matter, knows about is?

      would you guys consider this statement true or false

      Modern Greek derives from the same idiom used by Homer
      Last edited by Spartan; 02-14-2009, 06:10 PM.

      Comment

      • Delodephius
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 736

        #33
        What you are saying Risto makes no sense. How can an "imposed" language be "fake"? How can any language be "fake"? Languages are not antique vases.
        Last edited by Delodephius; 02-14-2009, 05:59 PM.
        अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
        उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
        This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
        But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

        Comment

        • Spartan
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1037

          #34
          This is from the Yale course guide-

          III. The Major in Ancient and Modern Greek

          The major in Ancient and Modern Greek offers students an opportunity to integrate the study of postclassical Greek language, history, and culture with the departmental program in ancient Greek and classical civilization. The major covers Hellenic civilization from the Bronze Age to the modern day, and traces the development of the language and the culture across traditionally drawn boundaries. The study of both ancient and modern Greek allows the student to appreciate how familiarity with one enriches understanding of the other, and to chart the development of a language which has one of the oldest continuous written traditions in the world. The literature, history, philosophy, religion, and art of the ancient Greek and Greco-Roman worlds are studied both as ends in themselves and also as a foundation for appreciating later (medieval, Ottoman, and modern) developments in these areas. Students are encouraged to develop a sense of the continuity of Greek language and culture, and an understanding of how Byzantine and modern forms relate to their ancient forebears.



          I also came across this-

          The Greek language with a documented record spanning three and a half millennia is a strong element of national continuity. Modern Greek derives from the same idiom used by Homer. Greek is also the language of the Gospels. The Greek alphabet and the Greek language have contributed much to all western languages. Today's Greeks (incl. Greek Cypriots), however, are the only ones who ensure this linguistic continuity. In this respect Greek, is to be distinguished sharply from Latin which generated numerous neo-latin languages from Rumanian to Portuguese before it became itself extinct.

          Slovak, how would you answer the questions I asked in my previous post.
          You seem like a sharp linguist, would be interested in hearing your opinion
          Last edited by Spartan; 02-14-2009, 06:24 PM.

          Comment

          • Delodephius
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 736

            #35
            You mean this one:
            For example, each stage of the Greek language has a clear connection to the previous, and next stage of the language.
            If this is true, surely it could not have been faked, could it?
            No, it could not. Since a language cannot be faked.
            You could make a misrepresentation of a language, but that's only external, meaning you could call your language Ancient Greek and say it was just like the real Ancient Greek but it would still be a different language. A language is not a material object that you can create a copy of and call it the original.
            अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
            उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
            This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
            But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

            Comment

            • Spartan
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1037

              #36
              Thanks for the answer Slovak
              You can answer my other ones as well, if you dont mind of course.
              Also, what is your opinion on the continuation of the Greek language?

              Comment

              • Risto the Great
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 15659

                #37
                Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                What you are saying Risto makes no sense. How can an "imposed" language be "fake"? How can any language be "fake"? Languages are not antique vases.
                I think my first sentence said "I do not feel it is a fake language". However, I do feel it WAS at the creation of the modern Greek State.

                The Greek language adopted at the creation of the modern Greek State was not a reflection of the surrounding languages. Not even a "best of" Greek languages, it was merely an old language that had enough text to support a re-introduction and had a specific agenda. Nobody spoke it at the time. Reports existed of Grandparents not understanding their Grandchildren.

                I gave you my reason and context as to why it could be construed as fake. And you have taken a stance that leaves you as the flag bearer for all languages. It is indeed noble, but almost like supporting Esperanto.

                I thoroughly accept that if the Japanese adopted Attic Greek as their new language, that it would be very much a real language.

                Spartan, the codification of the modern Greek language stopped in 1976 with the adoption of Demotiki. When they tried Katharevousa at the formation of the Greek State, little thought was given to the Greek dialects. The language was full of hypercorrections and false archaisms. Linguists call it artificial. What a pity Yannis Vilaras' (of Epirus) "Romaic Grammar" never gathered momentum. In contrast, it WAS based on dialects.

                You had to wait another 50 years before the work of Psicharis began to filter through and assist in the creation of the modern language you know today.
                Risto the Great
                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                Comment

                • Spartan
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1037

                  #38
                  Thank you for the answer Risto
                  However, I must disagree with the term "creation" as you use it in this context.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13675

                    #39
                    In the literary sense there was continuity in the Greek language, there can be no disputing that, but the particulars aren't so straight forward. Risto is correct, experts writing on the matter of Katharevousa call it an artificial language, there was no continuity there, it is like having the Italians use ancient Latin for official use. After 150 years of the Katharevousa-Demotiki game much changes have impacted the Greek language, words that were never used are now, words that were used have been abolished.

                    I can pick up a story recorded in Macedonia by the Miladinov brothers during the 1860's and read and understand it in full with little difficulty, that is continuity in language over the last 150 years.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Spartan
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1037

                      #40
                      I agree with your assesment SoM, Ristos as well(except the "creation part, sorry brother )
                      Thank-you for the answers, I always wanted to know you guys official view point on this subject.
                      Katharevousa(means 'clean'), from what I have read, was Greek , minus all the loanwords the language had aquired over the centuries. If this is the case, I can see why it was dropped for the Dimotiki.
                      Our church however still uses katharevousa, and I believe official legal documents as well.

                      I can pick up a story recorded in Macedonia by the Miladinov brothers during the 1860's and read and understand it in full with little difficulty, that is continuity in language over the last 150 years.
                      Im ok in Greek 150 yrs old too
                      Inside thing betweem me and SoM people, lol <cough> Melas<cough> lol
                      Last edited by Spartan; 02-14-2009, 09:14 PM.

                      Comment

                      • Delodephius
                        Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 736

                        #41
                        I still don't get what "fake language" is suppose to mean? There are various types of language: natural, artificial (constructed, planed), dead, classical, auxiliary, musical, artistic, engineering, etc. but "fake"? I can't imagine it.
                        अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                        उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                        This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                        But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15659

                          #42
                          Fake does not make a great leap from artificial.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • osiris
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1969

                            #43
                            why is it called byzantine, is it a credible term to use for a culture who used something else as the name for their civilisation, it distorts confuses and manipulate a version of false reality, and influences everything, methodology, purpose, percepetion ..

                            Comment

                            • Dimko-piperkata
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1876

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                              I think my first sentence said "I do not feel it is a fake language". However, I do feel it WAS at the creation of the modern Greek State.
                              ...
                              risto, was there ever a old greek state

                              мораме некојпат да се научиме вистината да ја пишиме а не понатамy лагите да ги шириме.

                              first greek state EVER = 1832 = first greek language (nothing to to with ANY language spoken in the past) = adopting the macedonian KOINE = to snatch macedonian heritage
                              1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum...
                              2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum...

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15659

                                #45
                                Of course there never was an old Greek State Dimko.
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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