Mandella is dead

[George S.]

World biggest freedom fighter has passed away. Australia sends its condolences.
R.I.P.Bog da go prosti

[makedonche]

Bog da go prosti!

[lavce pelagonski]

Bog da go prosti!

[Macedonian_Nationalist]

He'll need a big bog da go prosti! This man is responsible for plenty of innocent civilian deaths!

[George S.]

MN please explain why you think that?.

[Macedonian_Nationalist]

MN please explain why you think that?.

You haven't heard that he was responsible for the deaths of innocent men, women and children ? I guess the media don't talk about that stuff.

[Soldier of Macedon]

MN, can you please elaborate?

[lavce pelagonski]

I think MN is referring to the time when Mandela was in prison and the riots were going on. He refused to be pardoned at one point because he said as I suffer in here so do my people out there and we will win our freedom together. Unless it is some other event dont know.

[George S.]

if you are talking about the many revolts black agains't white ie when president de clerk was `around then there were a few killings all in the name of freedom.

[Soldier of Macedon]

He can't be held personally responsible for the inappropriate actions of others in his organisation, particularly if he gave no such directives. Unfortunately some innocent people suffer in desperate situations, but his people didn't ask for racist colonists to come to his lands and treat non-whites as sub human, any more than Macedonians asked Turks, Greeks, etc to come to their lands and treat them as inferior. Think about some of the extremes we took to throw off foreign oppression generations ago, and then compare.

May he rest in peace.

[Phoenix]

This is an interesting perspective on Mandela -

The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who opposed it were wholly and unswervingly good. It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal.

http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/

Another seldom mentioned point about the post apartheid South Africa that Mandela moulded is the massive brain drain and the loss of the South African middle class (white and coloured) to places like Australia, New Zealand, Britain, the US and elsewhere...perhaps Mandela wasn't the all inclusive force that the Western media (and politicians) like to paint. Today South Africa is a bastard case.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Another seldom mentioned point about the post apartheid South Africa that Mandela moulded is the massive brain drain and the loss of the South African middle class (white and coloured) to places like Australia, New Zealand, Britain, the US and elsewhere...perhaps Mandela wasn't the all inclusive force that the Western media (and politicians) like to paint. Today South Africa is a bastard case.

It's not just western media and politicians who 'paint' him in such a way, his actions speak for themselves. Anyway, how effective could he be, it is no easy task transforming a country from a racist cesspool to a democracy. South Africa still has some way to go, but the so-called 'brain drain' was an acceptable price to pay for the freedom of his people, especially given that many of those that left were more than likely supporters of the "white supremacy" regime, or at the very least had passively condoned it.

[Phoenix]

It's not just western media and politicians who 'paint' him in such a way, his actions speak for themselves. Anyway, how effective could he be, it is no easy task transforming a country from a racist cesspool to a democracy. South Africa still has some way to go, but the so-called 'brain drain' was an acceptable price to pay for the freedom of his people, especially given that many of those that left were more than likely supporters of the "white supremacy" regime, or at the very least had passively condoned it.

SoM, some time ago I met a South African guy on a flight from Melbourne to Singapore, ended up chatting to this guy for several hours down the back of the plane where everyone tends to end up when bored shitless on long flights.
As it turned out he was a solicitor who was now working and living in Melbourne with his young family. I actually asked him why he had left South Africa and he said that there was no chance for a good life for his children in a country which was trying to fast track the development of a black middle class...that could also be considered a form of racism and discrimination, it's hardly an inclusive culture of reconciliation that is portrayed by the Western media and the so called Mandela legacy.

The overthrow of the apartheid regime was also supported by many non-blacks, I think you're 'tarring' all whites with the same brush, so to speak.
I've had a good working relationship with another South African guy who works out of New Zealand, I think these are generally good people but have turned their lives upside down to get out of a place that's largely in social turmoil.

The entire Mandela saga will go down in history as another example of Western hypocrisy, particularly the reconciliation model ( "Truth and Reconciliation Commission") used in South Africa, the West even tried that little chestnut in an attempt to reconcile the warring parties in the former Yugoslavia but without a shred of success.

As for brain drains I seriously doubt that they could ever be considered "acceptable"...

[Soldier of Macedon]

I actually asked him why he had left South Africa and he said that there was no chance for a good life for his children in a country which was trying to fast track the development of a black middle class...

He may very well be a good person as an individual, and his story is perhaps worthy of empathy, but it is kind of hard to feel sympathy for him given how several generations of indigenous South Africans suffered under the thumb of his ancestors and their kinsmen. And if not one of his ancestors played a part, either directly or indirectly, then he is most definitely the exception and not the rule.

...that could also be considered a form of racism and discrimination.....

South Africa still has some way to go, no doubt, I did mention this in my previous post. And I am not implying that two wrongs make a right, I am not heartless or ignorant of how some white people have also suffered, but what they're enduring now cannot be compared to what the indigenous population had to endure for centuries.

....it's hardly an inclusive culture of reconciliation that is portrayed by the Western media and the so called Mandela legacy.....

The main legacy left by Mandela and his peers is that their people are no longer treated as sub-human in their own country. That was a success. That was foremost. Without it, there would not even be an opportunity for reconciliation. Mandela wasn't perfect, what happened after his term as president wasn't perfect, he knew this and made no secret of it. But his cause and his vision for the future of his country and people were just. You're deliberately overlooking the good he done because of some misleading portrayals by the 'western media', and while that may marginally detract from the main facts, it will not diminish them.

The overthrow of the apartheid regime was also supported by many non-blacks.....

I don't deny that.

...I think you're 'tarring' all whites with the same brush, so to speak.....

Phoenix, 'many' does not mean 'all'. Instead of misinterpreting what I write, you should instead be thinking about how to appropriately distinguish between different adjectives.

I've had a good working relationship with another South African guy who works out of New Zealand, I think these are generally good people but have turned their lives upside down to get out of a place that's largely in social turmoil.

The majority of them remained in South Africa. If it is that unbearable, many more would have departed.

As for brain drains I seriously doubt that they could ever be considered "acceptable"...

The reason why they were the 'brains' is because they didn't allow the indigenous population to flourish. Perhaps you haven't had ancestors that were treated as slaves or inferior in their own country....wait, you have, which makes your perspective on the whole "Mandela saga" all the more ironic. I would have gladly released "intelligent" racists from their 'burden' of Macedonian residence if it followed Macedonian freedom.

[vicsinad]

Soldier:

South Africa still has some way to go, no doubt, I did mention this in my previous post. And I am not implying that two wrongs make a right, I am not heartless or ignorant of how some white people have also suffered, but what they're enduring now cannot be compared to what the indigenous population had to endure for centuries.

First, what the white South Africans are enduring now is comparable to what happened to blacks during apartheid. Genocide Watch states that whites in South Africa are at a significant risk of facing genocide...that the ANC goverment is moving from the polarization to the preparation stage. The difference between this brutality and the brutality faced by blacks during apartheid is that apartheid brutality was, for the most part, government sponsored while today, for the most part, the attacks on whites are not completely proven to be government sponsored (but it is likely so). If the horrors whites are facing are not comparable to what the blacks had once faced, they will be facing them very soon if something doesn't change.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/in-jeopardy-future-of-white-south-africans/

http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html

Second, a little about the indigenous population of South Africa. Most blacks in South Africa are not indigenous. Actually, most whites in South Africa have been there before most blacks. Most blacks moved there from other parts of Africa while South Africa was gaining ground economically. Some more on South Africa's indigenous population, which is only 1% of the 50 million people who live there:

http://www.iwgia.org/regions/africa/south-africa

http://www.nieu-bethesda.com/en/history/south-africa.html

In this world, I believe means justifies the ends. And Mandela's means, especially through the beginning, did not justify the ends. Martin Luther King's means justified the ends, but not Mandela's. Mandela and his wife, while although never convicted of killing any innocents, were leaders of the ANC militant wing. Some of the stories about how he and she approved of certain types of killings are pretty disturbing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing#In_South_Africa

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/criticism-nelson-mandela-unjust

I have doubts that Mandela and the ANC actions were purely about the freedom of a people (as evidenced by their killings of tens of thousands of blacks) and more about control. I have the same feeling about KLA, NLA, and the Syrian rebels. Why else would they "kill" or intimidate their own people? ANC reminds me of a more brutal version of KLA. KLA got their leaders power and money, but many Albanians who didn't support their methods faced some consequences. A worse fate was fared by South African blacks who weren't supportive of ANC methods. Now it's reverse genocide...but Mandela is praised for leaving South Africa better than when he took over? Time will tell if it is better, but it's looking not to be the case...